What happens if I polymorph into an animal, then am awakened?


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Gauss wrote:
Crimeo wrote:
[blatantly obvious you are an ooze type now, that's what becoming something means.]
^This is the problem right here. You call it "blatantly obvious" while nobody else here is doing so. In fact, we are calling it obvious that you do NOT gain the type because nowhere does it state that you do.

+1

I don't even know why he doesn't just Rule 0 a house rule that it changes type and continue.

It also seems like he allows wording in Polymorph spells to override the Polymorph chapter that details have polymorph works.


Crimeo wrote:
I thought that sounded very silly after reading it

Yep, welcome to how everyone else in the thread views your entire debate.

It is also extremely disingenuous to make an explicit argument based around 'logic not consensus' and then try to use a player consensus (with a question worded deliberately to invoke bias no less!) to prove a point. Why not make a poll to determine whether the wording of polymorph gives you the creature's type, and put it to this thread?

At the point it is becoming increasingly clear that you will continue to twist and writhe to find some argument where you aren't pretty straightforwardly wrong. It's not going to happen.


Crimeo if your goal is to convince us the wording in the book is not "good enough" then you might as well agree to disagree. It is not going to happen.

If that is not your goal then you might want to let us know what it is.


Crimeo answer me this

Why is it necessary to point out the split off ooze gains the ooze type when in the description text of the ooze in the bestiary it doesn't?

Because a real ooze who creates another ooze by splitting actually creates a real ooze.

The spell creates a special rule that when the fake ooze creates an ooze by splitting, it creates a real ooze not a fake one that retains memories and things.


Quote:
It is also extremely disingenuous to make an explicit argument based around 'logic not consensus' and then try to use a player consensus
Gauss wrote:

Actually, reading the rules is literally what you need to use.

Polling people who have no familiarity with game concepts and rules is exactly the people who's opinion is meaningless.

"Game concept"? Is there a special game-specific pathfinder definition of "become"? Anywhere. Any page? No it seems there isn't. Well then that means it's NOT in fact, a "game concept."

And non-game concepts are just... words, so they use the common, everyday, English definitions of words. It's really exactly as simple as that: "You become an ooze." means "You start to be an ooze." Because that's what the non-game concept "become" means in English. Thus, you're an OOZE. The only context that would change that as far as I can see would be something like "The following sentence means its opposite:" before it.

Quote:
I think you have made you up your mind that the rule is not written clearly enough for you.

Regarding creature type, not at all! I don't see any lack of clarity. It says you become an ooze/change into an animal, crystal clear to me. Don't really need any more advice on that, and don't care to argue anymore. Thought something more interesting might still come of discussing it, but nothing did. I appreciate all the interest. Moving on.

I do think that step 2, however, is still extremely vague and confusing/undefined. That is, if you are an animal as a part of a temporary effect, are awakened, and then that temporary effect ends, what happens to you? Don't worry about what the effect is. Let's just say it's completely unrelated magical temporary animal type changing pixie dust for sake of argument.

If anybody has any further thoughts on THAT, and whether any rules might be relevant to it, I'd be happy to hear them. Not really interested in anything else, thanks, but definitely still interested in that.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

so....is the OP the player or the GM? This seems like a real easy situation. It is not a frequently misunderstood problem, as the polymorph mechanic has been in the core since the beginning of Pathfinder. Types never changed.

If he/she is the GM, then rule it the way you want it to work.

If he/she is the player, ask the GM how they would rule it.

This whole thread is one person arguing an established rule contrary to how everyone else sees it. They are either extremely stubborn, enjoy propagating argument style debates, or enjoys riling people up.


Shar Tahl wrote:

so....is the OP the player or the GM? This seems like a real easy situation. It is not a frequently misunderstood problem, as the polymorph mechanic has been in the core since the beginning of Pathfinder. Types never changed.

If he/she is the GM, then rule it the way you want it to work.

If he/she is the player, ask the GM how they would rule it.

This whole thread is one person arguing an established rule contrary to how everyone else sees it. They are either extremely stubborn, enjoy propagating argument style debates, or enjoys riling people up.

The OP is the GM, says his group goes by RAW. The problem is that he ignores entire sections of verbage and bases entire decision of what RAW is of the spells he is using only one word, "changes". Apparently RAW only works with single word definitions. Not the said word within paragraph structure.


Crimeo wrote:


I do think that step 2, however, is still extremely vague and confusing/undefined. That is, if you are an animal as a part of a temporary effect, are awakened, and then that temporary effect ends, what happens to you? Don't worry about what the effect is. Let's just say it's completely unrelated magical temporary animal type changing pixie dust for sake of argument.

If anybody has any further thoughts on THAT, and whether any rules might be relevant to it, I'd be happy to hear them. Not really interested in anything else, thanks, but definitely still interested in that.

Per the game RAI you never become an animal aka gain the animal creature type so the spell can never affect you.

Scenario 2--> If however one were to actually gain the creature type then we would have a rules contradiction and that would require an FAQ. My guess is that Paizo would say you the spell does not work on someone or something that is temporarily an animal.

If you want to speculate on what would happen if Paizo never chimed in on scenario number 2, then it falls on the GM, since some things are beyond the rules if they are overlooked or never thought of. So all we can do in those cases is speculate on what we think Paizo would do.

Yeah, I am saying the rules do not cover every possible scenario because players can get creative, and sometimes things just get overlooked.


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This needs to be removed from the Rules Forum and placed in either advice or suggestions/homebrew

Sovereign Court

Rogar Stonebow wrote:

Or you can cast Magic Jar on the baleful polymorphed animal, then cast alter self you choose which polymorph effect you want to use, alter self of course, BP ends and then end magic jar.

I am on a roll.

Except the part of baleful polymorph that says other polymorph effects fail.

And when you are in the animals body, do you have the wild shape class feature and natural spell feat? Ok, how about still spell, silent spell and eschew materials? Or perhaps you are a psychic caster?


Firebug wrote:
Rogar Stonebow wrote:

Or you can cast Magic Jar on the baleful polymorphed animal, then cast alter self you choose which polymorph effect you want to use, alter self of course, BP ends and then end magic jar.

I am on a roll.

Except the part of baleful polymorph that says other polymorph effects fail.

And when you are in the animals body, do you have the wild shape class feature and natural spell feat? Ok, how about still spell, silent spell and eschew materials? Or perhaps you are a psychic caster?

Holy carp!

Thanks for making me reread baleful polymorph.

CRIMEO pay attention.

Your basis is that baleful polymorph changes your type. If this is the case why in the last paragraph does it say if your sub-type is shape changer then you can revert to your normal form?

Why would it say this if the spell changes your type?


Rogar Stonebow wrote:
Firebug wrote:
Rogar Stonebow wrote:

Or you can cast Magic Jar on the baleful polymorphed animal, then cast alter self you choose which polymorph effect you want to use, alter self of course, BP ends and then end magic jar.

I am on a roll.

Except the part of baleful polymorph that says other polymorph effects fail.

And when you are in the animals body, do you have the wild shape class feature and natural spell feat? Ok, how about still spell, silent spell and eschew materials? Or perhaps you are a psychic caster?

Holy carp!

Thanks for making me reread baleful polymorph.

CRIMEO pay attention.

Your basis is that baleful polymorph changes your type. If this is the case why in the last paragraph does it say if your sub-type is shape changer then you can revert to your normal form?

Why would it say this if the spell changes your type?

Just in case you polymorphed into a shapeshifter :)

Kidding, this thread is nonsense.


OK Crimeo really. now your just being thick

Seriously Crimeo, your argument is "It doesn't exist therefore it works", how is that in anyway an argument to begin with. not to mention the fact that 100% of posters who have replied to your OP have stated that you are WRONG, and yet you still won't accept that fact. what does it take 110% before you realize "Geez, I might be wrong after all"

Next lets talk about your game. you say that the spell the PC's need to bypass says it can detect the difference between animals and not animals, by type. Then why not just say that the spell lets them through if they polymorph themselves into an animal? why does it specifically have to be type. if your PC's are smart enough to go, "Hey lets change into an animal using a resource we have to bypass this defense" then why are you being so restrictive about it. why not say it can only distinguish between the form?

When you put all of the rules pertaining Polymorph (Subschool and spells) together you get an answer of, the spells give you what THEY SAY they give you and the Subschool rules say you LOSE everything else. and again no where in any of those rules does it say "YOUR TYPE CHANGES". This is RAW. Rules as Written. and in case you forgot what Written means, it means any text that is visibly printed on a piece paper, since you want to go by Normal English when interpreting wording. SO is it WRITTEN (meaning there are words that specifically say it) that your type changes? NO? then your type doesn't change and there is no ambiguity there at all.

However it is completely up to you if you want to use RAI instead to justify things, but in this regard unfortunately both RAW and RAI say the same thing.

Also "Change Into" can be interpreted in a couple of ways using Normal English by the way. It COULD mean that when you change you gain everything about the creature. Or it COULD mean that you change into a FORM of the creature, which we already know does not grant type. By taking both meanings of "Change into" and referencing the other rules that Pertain to Polymorph we can deduce/come to the conclusion/imply/infer/...etc. what have you... that it means you change into the FORM and gain nothing about type.


Crimeo wrote:
Quote:
It is also extremely disingenuous to make an explicit argument based around 'logic not consensus' and then try to use a player consensus
Gauss wrote:

Actually, reading the rules is literally what you need to use.

Polling people who have no familiarity with game concepts and rules is exactly the people who's opinion is meaningless.

"Game concept"? Is there a special game-specific pathfinder definition of "become"? Anywhere. Any page? No it seems there isn't. Well then that means it's NOT in fact, a "game concept."

And non-game concepts are just... words, so they use the common, everyday, English definitions of words. It's really exactly as simple as that: "You become an ooze." means "You start to be an ooze." Because that's what the non-game concept "become" means in English. Thus, you're an OOZE. The only context that would change that as far as I can see would be something like "The following sentence means its opposite:" before it.

Quote:
I think you have made you up your mind that the rule is not written clearly enough for you.

Regarding creature type, not at all! I don't see any lack of clarity. It says you become an ooze/change into an animal, crystal clear to me. Don't really need any more advice on that, and don't care to argue anymore. Thought something more interesting might still come of discussing it, but nothing did. I appreciate all the interest. Moving on.

I do think that step 2, however, is still extremely vague and confusing/undefined. That is, if you are an animal as a part of a temporary effect, are awakened, and then that temporary effect ends, what happens to you? Don't worry about what the effect is. Let's just say it's completely unrelated magical temporary animal type changing pixie dust for sake of argument.

If anybody has any further thoughts on THAT, and whether any rules might be relevant to it, I'd be happy to hear them. Not really interested in anything else, thanks, but definitely still interested in that.

As usual you ignore the main point and focus on a little element in the hopes that you will "win".

Once again:

Gauss wrote:

Try this:

What does "changes into" mean? It is not defined.
Are there rules that help define it? Yes, they tell you what you get.
Ok, so "changes into" means you have the shape of, appearance of, and get X Y and Z stats. Got it.

This is the part you are failing to do. You are applying your own definition instead of using the rules to define it.

So, yes, it is ultimately defined by the rules surrounding it.

When you run into a word that has no specific game mechanic definition, look to the rules surrounding it to see if they define it because, they probably do.

Of course, you love to take things out of context and thus you constantly read rules out of context.


I have a suggestion, one that hopefully will let this thread fade away into the aether.

Crimeo, do things how ever you want, as your a the GM, that is a power you have. However, in the future, you cannot claim you run your game RAW, as you have been shown, not only by the community at large, but by a Paizo staff member, that your interpretation of the rules is not the Paizo (and thus THE, official, RAW, RAI, and final) interpretation.

They call them house rules for a reason, use it, but for the love of all that is good in this world, let the argument go, spend the time prepping for your game, or have a beer, anything other than continuing to force this increasingly toxic thread.

Now, that said, I am going to go read some paladins should fall threads just so I can feel better. Nuff said.


Crimeo wrote:

...

I do think that step 2, however, is still extremely vague and confusing/undefined. That is, if you are an animal as a part of a temporary effect, are awakened, and then that temporary effect ends, what happens to you? Don't worry about what the effect is. Let's just say it's completely unrelated magical temporary animal type changing pixie dust for sake of argument.

If anybody has any further thoughts on THAT, and whether any rules might be relevant to it, I'd be happy to hear them. Not really interested in anything else, thanks, but definitely still interested in that.

Given the assumption that you temporarily qualify as type "Animal", and get the spell "Awaken" cast, you would keep the effect, since its effect is instant. If it had been permanent, you would loose it until you became an "Animal" again, since you would be an invalid target. However, the Awaken spell takes 24 hours to complete, and if not completed while you remain an "Animal", it fails since it cannot target you. The caster also loose that 2000 gp in components you spent. Likewise, the save The caster needs to make to successfully cast the spell is difficult if cast on someone of equal level. Another issue is if you are INT based, this is a bad idea because your new int is 3d6. If you are CHA based, however, it is a great idea.

/cevah


Quote:
Per the game RAI you never become an animal aka gain the animal creature type so the spell can never affect you.

Yes I do because we are now talking about, as specified, totally unrelated magical pixie dust that turns you into an animal for step number 1. Or if you prefer a real game example, pretend it's a nature oracle using their capstone ability to clearly gain an animal type.

Don't care about that step #1, it's been argued to death and isn't going anywhere productive further. I'm only asking about the second step of what happens if you DO have a tempprary animal type, awaken, then the temporary effect ends?

If there are any clues as to what happens in RAW, which there may just not be.

Quote:
However, the Awaken spell takes 24 hours to complete, and if not completed while you remain an "Animal", it fails since it cannot target you.

The awaken is cast on contingency, which it is my understanding activates instantly, with all the casting time having been spent in the preparation of the contingency, instead of in the moment of activation.

One of the other questions I asked earlier related to this was "Are you actually allowed to cast a contingency where the contingent spell will have a valid target in the event of it triggering, but doesn't yet when cast?"

As a simpler example: could you cast contingency to cast feather fall when you start falling, even though you're standing on the ground (and not free falling) when the contingency is prepared and thus not yet a valid target? If so, then I think it would work for awaken too ahead of time, but may be wrong.

Quote:
The caster also loose that 2000 gp in components you spent.

Yes I know this is not a problem.

Quote:
Likewise, the save The caster needs to make to successfully cast the spell is difficult if cast on someone of equal level.

This may or may not be a problem. It depends: would that save be based on the animal at time of triggering somehow? Or on the human before any of it takes place? Ties in with the above issue of whether the "target" of the contingent spell is the as-is character or the character at moment of trigger, in general.

Quote:
Another issue is if you are INT based, this is a bad idea because your new int is 3d6.

Not a problem, the stakes are high enough for it to be worth it.


It just doesn't work the way you want it to and you won't find support here on these forums. Devs have weighed in (again).

This has to be a troll post at this point


Crimeo wrote:
Cevah wrote:
However, the Awaken spell takes 24 hours to complete, and if not completed while you remain an "Animal", it fails since it cannot target you.
The awaken is cast on contingency, which it is my understanding activates instantly, with all the casting time having been spent in the preparation of the contingency, instead of in the moment of activation.

The other spell is not cast on the Contingency spell, but on you, and you must be of type "Animal". It will take effect when the conditions occur. With an instant duration, it will take effect and leave no trace of magic behind when the conditions first happen.

Also, a spell is not a creature of type "Animal", anyway, so it could not be targeted.

The casting of Contingency must encompass the maximum of 10 minutes or the other spell's casting, which means it takes 24 hours to do.

If you are type "Animal" while you cast the contingency for the 24 hours needed, why bother with it, as you could be directly affected without it and without you needing to cast anything at all, let alone while in animal form.

Crimeo wrote:

One of the other questions I asked earlier related to this was "Are you actually allowed to cast a contingency where the contingent spell will have a valid target in the event of it triggering, but doesn't yet when cast?"

As a simpler example: could you cast contingency to cast feather fall when you start falling, even though you're standing on the ground (and not free falling) when the contingency is prepared and thus not yet a valid target? If so, then I think it would work for awaken too ahead of time, but may be wrong.

No.

You are not a valid target for feather fall while standing on the ground.

I don't see any text in Contingency that delays the targeting, only the effect. All "casting" spell decisions must be made in the casting, and not made when the effect occurs. Spells that can change after being cast (like Blessings of Fervor) still have that option. Spells that are selected at casting (like Summon Monster X) must be chosen while casting.

Crimeo wrote:
Cevah wrote:
Likewise, the save The caster needs to make to successfully cast the spell is difficult if cast on someone of equal level.
This may or may not be a problem. It depends: would that save be based on the animal at time of triggering somehow? Or on the human before any of it takes place? Ties in with the above issue of whether the "target" of the contingent spell is the as-is character or the character at moment of trigger, in general.

Awaken is Druid or Shaman. The caster of Awaken will need to roll at least a 14 on the d20 if at the same level as the caster of the contingency. At higher levels, the needed number increases. Again, only the effect is delayed. A cloak of resistance will help on this save.

Having Awaken cast and work on you means you are now "friendly" to the caster. You really want that to magically be enforced? :-)

/cevah


Quote:
Awaken is Druid or Shaman.

He is a spell sage, so he can cast druid spells and contingency both himself. That was the original basis of the plan.

The other stuff is problematic. He could make himself an animal for awhile just to do the contingency and be valid, then switch back while contingency is still running then go on with plan as normal. But the problem is how does he cast contingency if he's INT 2? Can't get to 16 int to cast the spells with any reasonably costed headbands or whatever.

How about... Can you cast a contingency to ... cast contingency? Original target then is just "you", no type specified.

Otherwise, looks like somebody may have to go on an adventure to find a high level nature oracle, if one exists.

edit Actually I think the other thread reminding me of the text of break enchantment gives me a less cheesy more solid way. Still kind of interested if you can do contingency(contingency) though.


Crimeo wrote:
Quote:
Awaken is Druid or Shaman.

He is a spell sage, so he can cast druid spells and contingency both himself. That was the original basis of the plan.

The other stuff is problematic. He could make himself an animal for awhile just to do the contingency (at a 24 hour casting time) and be valid, then switch back while contingency is still running then go on with plan as normal. But the problem is how does he cast contingency if he's INT 2? Can't get to 16 int to cast the spells with any reasonably costed headbands or whatever.

How about... Can you cast a contingency to ... cast contingency? Original target then is just "you", no type specified.

Otherwise, looks like somebody may have to go on an adventure to find a high level nature oracle, if one exists.

edit Actually I think the other thread reminding me of the text of break enchantment gives me a less cheesy more solid way. Still kind of interested if you can do contingency(contingency) though.

Changing your type does not change anything else about you. If you have Int 16 before you change, you are OK.

Contingent Contingency: ?

Quote:
You can use only one contingency spell at a time; if a second is cast, the first one (if still active) is dispelled.

No.

If you can cast Awaken, and make yourself of type "Animal" for the 24 hours needed, why bother with Contingency? It adds nothing, and takes an additional slot.

If you want it fast, use [Limited] Wish. One standard action to cast and it duplicates the Awaken spell. Probably easier to become type "Animal" for a few rounds than for a whole day.

/cevah


The custom magical pixie dust in question changes everything about me to anything relevant in animal's stat block, so not including changed memories, but yes including intelligence, which is why I needed a contingency, because I wouldn't be smart enough to awaken myself afterward. The clueless animal with a contingency to awaken it, though, doesn't HAVE to know what's going on (or more mechanically speaking, be able to cast a 6th level int-based spell).

Though I think I may have found other options, that is the situation. Also, I specifically want to be a magical beast ASAP at the end of the process, so a simple dispel or something, though may be workable possibly, isn't as good, and is more risky for getting found out as a spy/infiltrator.

Quote:
You can only have one contingency active at a time

The spell tied to a contingency ISN'T active yet until it triggers based on the conditions. And by the time it does, the first one has already done its job. So this rule should not be violated by a contingency(contingency)

Limited wish, however, uses the same strategy as contingency(contingency) and is more straightforward, so that's a great idea, thanks.


Awaken is not a valid spell choice for contingency. The valid spell choices are personal spells.


maybe Crimeo is getting confused by what little bit of language is left from 3.X cutting and pasting D&D polymorph school. Which didn't that lead to the creation of Pun Pun? Pathfinder changed the way polymorph works as a whole just changing shape, not actual type that was the whole intent of of the change was to make it similar and preventing pun pun at the same time.


Crimeo wrote:
The custom magical pixie dust in question changes everything about me to anything relevant in animal's stat block

Well hopefully the stat block where this magic pixie dust is in, or the GM that made it, will answer your questions. Since you've left the realm of the game into a hypothetical question


Rogar Stonebow wrote:
Awaken is not a valid spell choice for contingency. The valid spell choices are personal spells.

That is not correct, it does not need to be a personal spell.

CRB p260 wrote:

You can place another spell upon your person so that it comes into effect under some condition you dictate when casting contingency. The contingency spell and the companion spell are cast at the same time. The 10-minute casting time is the minimum total for both castings; if the companion spell has a casting time longer than 10 minutes, use that instead. You must pay any costs associated with the companion spell when you cast contingency.

The spell to be brought into effect by the contingency must be one that affects your person and be of a spell level no higher than one third your caster level (rounded down, maximum 6th level).

The conditions needed to bring the spell into effect must be clear, although they can be general. In all cases, the contingency immediately brings into effect the companion spell, the latter being “cast” instantaneously when the prescribed circumstances occur. If complicated or convoluted conditions are prescribed, the whole spell combination (contingency and the companion magic) may fail when triggered. The companion spell occurs based solely on the stated conditions, regardless of whether you want it to.

You can use only one contingency spell at a time; if a second is cast, the first one (if still active) is dispelled.

Nowhere in that does it state that the contingent spell must be personal. What it says is that it must be cast upon your person. That could be anything that targets you (such as personal, touch, or other targetable spells such as Haste).


Crimeo wrote:
Also, I specifically want to be a magical beast ASAP at the end of the process, so a simple dispel or something, though may be workable possibly, isn't as good, and is more risky for getting found out as a spy/infiltrator.

For this role, you want Magic Jar. Use another body to do the risky scouting. No-one suspects the castle cat. Or use Possess Object. Who would suspect the chair? Or even Enter Image. Gift your "friend" with your portrait to grace his dining hall.

Crimeo wrote:
Quote:
You can only have one contingency active at a time
The spell tied to a contingency ISN'T active yet until it triggers based on the conditions. And by the time it does, the first one has already done its job. So this rule should not be violated by a contingency(contingency)

Except for this part of the spell:

Quote:
The contingency spell and the companion spell are cast at the same time.

So casting the second one at the same time is dispelling the first. :-)

Crimeo wrote:
Limited wish, however, uses the same strategy as contingency(contingency) and is more straightforward, so that's a great idea, thanks.

As to being unable to cast Awaken while low int, who cares? Someone else can cast it for you.

/cevah

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