Synthesist is basically just a better fighter, so they overshadow the martials in your party. They aren't inherently broken like the Master Summoner archetype was. Even then, base Summoner had an Unchained version for a reason. They are still very, very powerful.
actually, the normal summoner is MORE powerful than a synthesist, the easiest way to be powerful is to load up on natural attacks on the eidolon then proceed to buff with the summoner (haste lets EACH natural attack swing a second time per full attack, bulls strength buffs the damage, blur, displacement, you get the idea)
the main reason a synthesist is worse is because of the fact that normal summoner gets two full rounds of actions due to being seperate, whereas the synth has to share its actions between the two
Haste only allows one extra attack total when full attacking, not one extra attack per weapon/natural attack.
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon.
It's good, but not that good.
Wowww!!!
Can you even imagine if you had a second netural attack for EACH you have with haste? Good god.
Anyway OP , the standard summoner can be quite strong , dont worry.
And i would actually say the strongest one is using a 2 handed great sword + the natural attacks. If you ever even feel the need to go that far really.
Haste only allows one extra attack total when full attacking, not one extra attack per weapon/natural attack.
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon.It's good, but not that good.
i was thinking of the Speed weapon property, which DOES work like that if you can afford it, they disallowed it specifically on the Amulet of Mighty Fists because of how OP that is
Wowww!!!
Can you even imagine if you had a second netural attack for EACH you have with haste? Good god.
Anyway OP , the standard summoner can be quite strong , dont worry.
And i would actually say the strongest one is using a 2 handed great sword + the natural attacks. If you ever even feel the need to go that far really.
thats a bad idea, since you get capped at attacks based on your BAB if you use a manufactured weapon, otherwise yoyu just get one attack with EACH natural weapon, which can get crazy fast since you can buy up a ton of tentacles or something to slap people with
thats a bad idea, since you get capped at attacks based on your BAB if you use a manufactured weapon, otherwise yoyu just get one attack with EACH natural weapon, which can get crazy fastWowww!!!
Can you even imagine if you had a second netural attack for EACH you have with haste? Good god.
Anyway OP , the standard summoner can be quite strong , dont worry.
And i would actually say the strongest one is using a 2 handed great sword + the natural attacks. If you ever even feel the need to go that far really.
If you have a manufactured weapon , then its attacks will be based on your BBA, but you still gain all your natural attacks , while they will all be secundary , so it is a -5 at low level and later -2 to hit with a STR variation.
Ofc , you dont gain the natural attacks that you are using to hold the sword , so either you add more feets/legs for extra claws , or you will lose the ones on your hands holding the weapon.
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(haste lets EACH natural attack swing a second time per full attack, bulls strength buffs the damage, blur, displacement, you get the idea)
I am very, very certain that Haste grants, at best, one extra attack with a single natural weapon of the Eidolon's choice.
Anyway, as mentioned before, doubling your actions per turn is the biggest strength of the Summoner. Granted, the Synthesist FEELS more powerful what with the advantages of the Eidolon gives a PC with natural armor, natural attacks, and that temporary hit point pool. It'll make the fighter feel inadequate. The potential to cheese your stats FEELS awful, but honestly it just means having 16 Int on a non-Int-based frontliner if you decided that's a thing you need in your life.
Out of curiosity, are we talking APG Summoner or Unchained Summoner?
Synthetist is basically the weakest summoner archetype because you loose your best boon: action economy. The summoner isn't that strong because he can cast haste at level 4, or because the eidolon can pounce from level one - it's because he can do both in the same turn!
The reason the synthetist get's so much hate is because he doesn't do much other than overshadowing other martials. If the BSF gets buffed by haste, can attack the invisible enemy thanks to glitterdust and gets a flanking partner to boot, he will feel good, even if the summoner provides much more to the fight than the fighter does. But if the synthetist is one-shot pouncing enemies from round one, the fighter will quickly feel left out.
The base summoner is indeed stronger than most of it's archetypes. There are a few archetypes if you don't like using your Summon Monster SLA (Wild Caller (half-elf), Naturalist and Spirit Summoner), but most of them suck. Only the Master Summoner can really be considered to have a higher power level, and only if you know how to use your summons properly.
Edit: I shouldn't post while watching TV. Damn, I'm slow!
The summoner as a whole is broken horribly. I found the synth is equally powerful as the summoner if you are given the best tools to build it.
In a point buy I dumped all my physical stats and buffed cha and wis. Then dipped a level in monk to have a crazy stupid high AC. You can also arcane strike your 8 limbs for extra effect. The one extra attack from haste was minor to what I would add to it. The monk ac was equal to a 25% miss chance.
It is banned because the rules on it as written horribly. There are so much gray area that a DM has to make their own rules for it for thousands of corner cases. It is a rules nightmare.
Synthesist is mostly just bad for abusing point buy. There's nothing to stop you from dumping your physical scores, since you will use the eidolon physical stats most of the time.
i was thinking of the Speed weapon property, which DOES work like that if you can afford it, they disallowed it specifically on the Amulet of Mighty Fists because of how OP that isHaste only allows one extra attack total when full attacking, not one extra attack per weapon/natural attack.
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon.It's good, but not that good.
You would only get one extra natural attack, not one per claw, even with speed on an AoMF.They didn't disallow adding speed to the amulet. They clarified that you do not get an extra attack per natural weapon.
The summoner as a whole is broken horribly. I found the synth is equally powerful as the summoner if you are given the best tools to build it.
In a point buy I dumped all my physical stats and buffed cha and wis. Then dipped a level in monk to have a crazy stupid high AC. You can also arcane strike your 8 limbs for extra effect. The one extra attack from haste was minor to what I would add to it. The monk ac was equal to a 25% miss chance.
It is banned because the rules on it as written horribly. There are so much gray area that a DM has to make their own rules for it for thousands of corner cases. It is a rules nightmare.
Corner cases tend to require their own rules. However if no corner cases are involved I really don't know of any normal summoner rules that are grey areas. Do you have examples?
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Not sure what APG means, but I think we're talking about him.(haste lets EACH natural attack swing a second time per full attack, bulls strength buffs the damage, blur, displacement, you get the idea)I am very, very certain that Haste grants, at best, one extra attack with a single natural weapon of the Eidolon's choice.
Anyway, as mentioned before, doubling your actions per turn is the biggest strength of the Summoner. Granted, the Synthesist FEELS more powerful what with the advantages of the Eidolon gives a PC with natural armor, natural attacks, and that temporary hit point pool. It'll make the fighter feel inadequate. The potential to cheese your stats FEELS awful, but honestly it just means having 16 Int on a non-Int-based frontliner if you decided that's a thing you need in your life.
Out of curiosity, are we talking APG Summoner or Unchained Summoner?
Advanced Player's Guide. The first book to feature the class, and a more powerful, more customizable version. If you make an "eidolon" instead of an an Anlzata or an Elemental etc then you are using the APG.
Corner cases tend to require their own rules. However if no corner cases are involved I really don't know of any normal summoner rules that are grey areas. Do you have examples?The summoner as a whole is broken horribly. I found the synth is equally powerful as the summoner if you are given the best tools to build it.
In a point buy I dumped all my physical stats and buffed cha and wis. Then dipped a level in monk to have a crazy stupid high AC. You can also arcane strike your 8 limbs for extra effect. The one extra attack from haste was minor to what I would add to it. The monk ac was equal to a 25% miss chance.
It is banned because the rules on it as written horribly. There are so much gray area that a DM has to make their own rules for it for thousands of corner cases. It is a rules nightmare.
I am speaking the synth summoner has a lot of weird areas. The normal summoner is pretty cut and dry.
The summoner as a whole is broken horribly. I found the synth is equally powerful as the summoner if you are given the best tools to build it.
"Broken" in what way? If you look at in-partyroll-balancing, yes, he easily upstages every other melee.
But if you take a look at how much his infuence is on an encounter, a synthesist is weaken than a base summoner and a base summoner is weaker than a wizard (weaker than most full casters, really).I would never outright ban synthesis, but you might not want to have one in a party with a rogue, a monk and a fighter.