Is (Greater) Hat of Disguise an Emperor's New Clothes situation?


Rules Questions


Okay, I know the analogy isn't perfect, but I mean it as a sorta joke to my question.

If someone interacts with my disguise and recognizes it as an illusion, what happens?

1. They know its an illusion, but still see it.

2. They see me in my birthday suit because I was in a hurry this morning and just threw on the hat.


2


"as the disguise self" spell, which is a glamer.

Glamers do not leave a translucent outline, so it would just go completely invisible and you'd see whatever you were actually wearing, if anything.


I wonder if one could create a hat that uses transmutation instead of illusion. Thus actually changing the clothing itself.


Zotpox wrote:
I wonder if one could create a hat that uses transmutation instead of illusion. Thus actually changing the clothing itself.

The aura doesn't matter, the only thing that matters is that it says "as with the spell disguise self"

If you don't want it to be discoverable by interaction and want real clothing morphing, just use sleeves of many garments. They also have illusion aura, but do not base on any illusion spell ("as with___ spell" not mentioned), thus don't follow those spell interaction rules. And their language does say that the clothes actually change, so they do.

Shadow Lodge

The Greater Hat of Disguise does work as alter self, despite the aura of illusion, though since alter self doesn't change your clothes it would not help that situation.

There was an FAQ on the sleeves. While they don't actually change, they are your best bet for preventing someone from seeing through your new suit.

FAQ wrote:

Sleeves of Many Garments: Are the effects of sleeves of many garments illusion or transmutation?

The effects are illusion (glamer) like the glamered weapon and armor properties. This means they can’t be disbelieved like a figment could, but they do not actually physically change the clothes. The transformation changes only the appearance, including the feel, smell, and other sensory aspects.


Hmm, okay thanks. I'll just buy an extensive wardrobe. Much easier and can't be disbelieved.


??? aura... That's just what the item radiates. Who cares?

The idea is to have the clothing worn actually physically change rather than be a projection of an image of the desired clothing thus using transmutation rather than illusion.


That's a really bizarre FAQ. Even if for some reason you decide it's a glamer, glamers are not even immune to being disbelieved anyway... what are they on about? All the text on illusions and disbelief is for all illusions equally.

Shadow Lodge

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It is odd, but the key point is that it's intended to be an illusion that can't be disbelieved.

The importance of the clothes not actually changing is that you can't use the sleeves to duplicate stuff like a cold weather outfit to gain the bonus on saves vs environmental effects.

They are however the best item if you want to be able to rapidly switch between a variety of apparent clothes for social purposes.


Setting aside that the rules text for the item says nothing about it following illusion rules, even if it DID say that it was "as per disguise self," it STILL would have been able to be disbelieved, because glamers and the spell disguise self can be disbelieved.

What are we supposed to do with that?

I feel like if I follow that FAQ, it implies I am interpreting it to rewrite all of the rules for all illusions throughout the game. Suddenly making whole categories of illusions non-disbelievable and thus hugely overpowered. That is less helpful than no FAQ is.


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Crimeo wrote:

Setting aside that the rules text for the item says nothing about it following illusion rules, even if it DID say that it was "as per disguise self," it STILL would have been able to be disbelieved, because glamers and the spell disguise self can be disbelieved.

What are we supposed to do with that?

I feel like if I follow that FAQ, it implies I am interpreting it to rewrite all of the rules for all illusions throughout the game. Suddenly making whole categories of illusions non-disbelievable and thus hugely overpowered. That is less helpful than no FAQ is.

Why is there a problem? If the spell allows for a saving throw to disbelieve, then you can disbelieve. If it doesn't, then you can't. Sleeves don't allow for a save, so you can't disbelieve. That's how it worked in 3.5, and I don't know of anything that changes the illusion rules in any meaningful sense for Pathfinder. Neither have I heard of anyone allowing a save to disbelieve for common defensive and utility illusions like Invisibility, Blur or Mirror Image (which is actually a figment). Disguise Self is a Glamer that allows for a save to disbelieve, so you can disbelieve it and anything that mimics it's effects. Sleeves are their own thing with their own rules and a complete lack of any mechanism for disbelieving, so you can't disbelieve.

Shadow Lodge

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Snowblind is correct. The only problem with the FAQ is that it says you can't disbelieve the sleeves because they're a glamour, when the actual reason is that it never allows a save.


Quote:
Disguise Self is a Glamer that allows for a save to disbelieve, so you can disbelieve it and anything that mimics it's effects. Sleeves are their own thing with their own rules and a complete lack of any mechanism for disbelieving, so you can't disbelieve.

That is not the reason given though, that is my only issue. I would agree that what YOU just said seems correct, and that the sleeves should not be disbelievable for that reason (them not citing any spell or save or rules for disbelief at all. Not them being a glamer)

Quote:
allows for a save to disbelieve

Disguise self doesn't allow for a save, but whether saves are allowed for any given spell or not doesn't even matter for spells, because all illusion spells, save or not, can still be disbelieved with proof:

Quote:
A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw.

^

Applies to all kinds

Grand Lodge

They changed the Sleeves so you couldn't keep warm with a Cold Weather Outfit.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
They changed the Sleeves so you couldn't keep warm with a Cold Weather Outfit.

"The transformation changes only the appearance, including the feel, smell, and other sensory aspects."

So instead of physically changing the clothes, it simply tricks the wearer's senses into believing the clothes have changed? Wouldn't that mean that any effects (such as the +5 fortitude for cold-winter clothes) would be changed to a morale bonus instead? Because the wearer would actually "feel" warmer, and couldn't disbelieve it?

I'm sorry, I'm a little new to the caster systems, and I'm not quite clear on the ins and outs of how illusions work yet.


Lu_Lead wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
They changed the Sleeves so you couldn't keep warm with a Cold Weather Outfit.

"The transformation changes only the appearance, including the feel, smell, and other sensory aspects."

So instead of physically changing the clothes, it simply tricks the wearer's senses into believing the clothes have changed? Wouldn't that mean that any effects (such as the +5 fortitude for cold-winter clothes) would be changed to a morale bonus instead? Because the wearer would actually "feel" warmer, and couldn't disbelieve it?

I'm sorry, I'm a little new to the caster systems, and I'm not quite clear on the ins and outs of how illusions work yet.

No, people were apparently getting sleeves then saying "I change it into a cold weather outfit, so I get the +5 cold bonus" when you don't. So the FAQ is sort of a clarification that it doesn't actually change the nature of the clothes, just their appearance. So it LOOKS like a cold weather outfit, everyone will see, feel, and think it's a cold weather outfit... but it's not and it won't keep you warm like a real cold weather outfit would.


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Weirdo wrote:
Snowblind is correct. The only problem with the FAQ is that it says you can't disbelieve the sleeves because they're a glamour, when the actual reason is that it never allows a save.

Re-reading that FAQ, I think they simply failed to put enough emphasis in that the sleeves are "like the glamered weapon and armor properties", which don't have any saves, but can be overcome with spells like "True Seeing". I'd have to guess that's probably their intention, and not that all glamours can't be disbelieved.

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