Ring of Vanish?


Rules Questions


According to my calculations based on the table in the CRB you could make a ring of vanish with continuous invisibility for considerably less than a Ring of Invisibility will run you. Level 1 spell, 1st CL. 1 x 1 x 2,000(for continuous or use activated)x 4(duration in rounds)=8,000 GP. This as opposed to the Ring of Invisibility that is command activated, only lasts 3 minutes at a time and runs 20,000(which actually I'm pretty their math is off based on their own item creation rules, but that's a different story).

My real question is with the ring could it be use-activated and still give a continuous benefit until it was deactivated again? or is use-activated just an over-glorified Command Word?


The pricing rules are guidelines, not hard and fast rules. If it is less than exisiting similar items, it shouldn't be a valid option.


Skylancer4 wrote:

The pricing rules are guidelines, not hard and fast rules. If it is less than exisiting similar items, it shouldn't be a valid option.

That doesn't really answer the real question. I'm mostly interesting in this as an option for familiars (since they are just squishy and not very viable in combat). I'm playing a wizard so I can just cast invisibility on myself if I'm that worried about sneaking around myself.


HalpoCoren wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:

The pricing rules are guidelines, not hard and fast rules. If it is less than exisiting similar items, it shouldn't be a valid option.

That doesn't really answer the real question. I'm mostly interesting in this as an option for familiars (since they are just squishy and not very viable in combat). I'm playing a wizard so I can just cast invisibility on myself if I'm that worried about sneaking around myself.

Then you should talk to your GM as any custom items is basically GM fiat. Custom items aren't an option unless they say so, and they have the final say on cost.


There's a reason familiars get improved evasion at level one. If you are not having your familiar engage in combat, the GM should not target your familiar.


Skylancer4 wrote:

The pricing rules are guidelines, not hard and fast rules. If it is less than exisiting similar items, it shouldn't be a valid option.

Exactly this. This is actually the question at hand, and the answer to it. If it's vastly better than what's given than its too good to be true.


Skylancer4 wrote:
HalpoCoren wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:

The pricing rules are guidelines, not hard and fast rules. If it is less than exisiting similar items, it shouldn't be a valid option.

That doesn't really answer the real question. I'm mostly interesting in this as an option for familiars (since they are just squishy and not very viable in combat). I'm playing a wizard so I can just cast invisibility on myself if I'm that worried about sneaking around myself.
Then you should talk to your GM as any custom items is basically GM fiat. Custom items aren't an option unless they say so, and they have the final say on cost.

Again you're missing the part where I clearly said "My real question is". I want to know how Use-Activated differs from Command Word other than it could have different activation requirements.


CampinCarl9127 wrote:
There's a reason familiars get improved evasion at level one. If you are not having your familiar engage in combat, the GM should not target your familiar.

I wouldn't put anything past my GM, or other PCs for that matter. Improved Evasion is great for avoiding fireballs but look out for anything that doesn't give a reflex save, which is most of what we end up fighting.

Grand Lodge

Command Word wrote:

If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it. Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed.

A command word can be a real word, but when this is the case, the holder of the item runs the risk of activating the item accidentally by speaking the word in normal conversation. More often, the command word is some seemingly nonsensical word, or a word or phrase from an ancient language no longer in common use. Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Sometimes the command word to activate an item is written right on the item. Occasionally, it might be hidden within a pattern or design engraved on, carved into, or built into the item, or the item might bear a clue to the command word.

The Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (history) skills might be useful in helping to identify command words or deciphering clues regarding them. A successful check against DC 30 is needed to come up with the word itself. If that check is failed, succeeding on a second check (DC 25) might provide some insight into a clue. The spells detect magic, identify, and analyze dweomer all reveal command words if the properties of the item are successfully identified.

Use Activated wrote:

This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.

Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.

Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item's activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use, activation is not an action at all.

Use activation doesn't mean that if you use an item, you automatically know what it can do. You must know (or at least guess) what the item can do and then use the item in order to activate it, unless the benefit of the item comes automatically, such as from drinking a potion or swinging a sword.


kinevon wrote:
Command Word wrote:

If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it. Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed.

A command word can be a real word, but when this is the case, the holder of the item runs the risk of activating the item accidentally by speaking the word in normal conversation. More often, the command word is some seemingly nonsensical word, or a word or phrase from an ancient language no longer in common use. Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Sometimes the command word to activate an item is written right on the item. Occasionally, it might be hidden within a pattern or design engraved on, carved into, or built into the item, or the item might bear a clue to the command word.

The Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (history) skills might be useful in helping to identify command words or deciphering clues regarding them. A successful check against DC 30 is needed to come up with the word itself. If that check is failed, succeeding on a second check (DC 25) might provide some insight into a clue. The spells detect magic, identify, and analyze dweomer all reveal command words if the properties of the item are successfully identified.

Use Activated wrote:

This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.

Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be

...

This is the most helpful reply I've had so far. I guess to restate my question though basically I want to know if a continuous item can be made to be activated and deactivated.


It's still a lame duck your GM should shoot down, but that's about as clear to answer your questions as it will get.

1. It can be made into activation
2. It's cost is unbalanced and as such doesn't represent the item creation rules

Sovereign Court

I've read developers before naming the Ring of Invisibility as exactly the type of magic item where they chose not to follow the normal pricing guidelines, because they thought an unlimited-uses invisibility item was too powerful for that price.

So if you try a Ring of Vanish, you'd run into the same problem. It's an example of the kind of item that the pricing guidelines are no good for.

Anyway, isn't the Familiar Satchel a good solution to your problem?


Ascalaphus wrote:

I've read developers before naming the Ring of Invisibility as exactly the type of magic item where they chose not to follow the normal pricing guidelines, because they thought an unlimited-uses invisibility item was too powerful for that price.

So if you try a Ring of Vanish, you'd run into the same problem. It's an example of the kind of item that the pricing guidelines are no good for.

Anyway, isn't the Familiar Satchel a good solution to your problem?

The Ring of Invisibility is underpriced, it should be 21,600 (2nd level spell x 3rd CL x 1800 command word x 2 duration in minutes)

I'm going for the Ioun Wyrd, I don't really think a familiar satchel is adequate for my personal solar system. If it was GM approved I would actually multply the cost by 2 to make it an Ioun stone.


HalpoCoren wrote:
The Ring of Invisibility is underpriced, it should be 21,600 (2nd level spell x 3rd CL x 1800 command word x 2 duration in minutes)

No, the Ring of Invisibility is indeed over-priced. The duration boost is only for use-activated or continuous (since if it is always-on it costs you extra to make a spell continuous based on its duration). Since the RoI is command word activation and NOT continuous or use-activated, it does not apply.

Since it has no charges or charges per day limitation to reduce its price, you take the full price for a command word activation item at 10,800 [2(spell level) x 3(caster level) x 1800(command word)]. So they added 9,200 to the cost compared to how the item creation guidelines would price it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Estimates.

The line, right in the section you keep quoting, notes the tables are for estimating the cost.

It's not the end all, be all formula, that all magic items follow.

wrote:

estimate

verb es·ti·mate \ˈes-tə-ˌmāt\

: to give or form a general idea about the value, size, or cost of (something) : to make an estimate of (something)

noun

an approximate judgment or calculation, as of the value, amount, time, size, or weight of something.

a judgment or opinion, as of the qualities of a person or thing.

a statement of the approximate charge for work to be done, submitted by a person or business firm ready to undertake the work.


It is 20K 'cause that was the 3.X price. In 2nd Ed, it was 1,500.

I thought the rule price was 24K (2*3*2000*2) and that once activated it stayed that way until you attacked. Most say it is at will, and only lasts 3 minutes at a time before needing refreshed @ 10.8K (2*3*1800). One was reduced, the other increased. Depending on how it is read. Having come from 1st, I always read it as the former.

/cevah

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

This may also help.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
HalpoCoren wrote:

According to my calculations based on the table in the CRB you could make a ring of vanish with continuous invisibility for considerably less than a Ring of Invisibility will run you. Level 1 spell, 1st CL. 1 x 1 x 2,000(for continuous or use activated)x 4(duration in rounds)=8,000 GP. This as opposed to the Ring of Invisibility that is command activated, only lasts 3 minutes at a time and runs 20,000(which actually I'm pretty their math is off based on their own item creation rules, but that's a different story).

My real question is with the ring could it be use-activated and still give a continuous benefit until it was deactivated again? or is use-activated just an over-glorified Command Word?

Use-activated refers to things such as magical armor, rings of protection, straight +1 swords, etc. whose magic comes with their standard use. Things that have to activate a spell effect usually come with command words. Rings by their nature, unless they are passive rings such as rings of protection, are not use-activated.

The example you give above is a classic reminder of the caution given in the magic item creation rules. The standard formula will produce broken items if followed blindly. A GM should compare the custom item with items of similar powers. I would not be giving you any discounts just because you're intending the item for your familiar.

A use-activated item which activates a spell effect, is still subject to the CL of the item for duration, or the fixed duration of the spell invoked.


There are no *RULES* to price magic items, but rather *GUIDELINES* to get *ESTIMATES*. This is a very important destinction.

Using the formulas isonly the 1st step. After that you have to compare the result with other existing items to see how the estimated price holds up to these. Then adjust.

It is a subjective art, and the DM is the final arbiter to say what he deems appropriate as a price.

This is the core of the issue with inventing new magic items.


I demand my Ring of Continuous True Strike, priced according to the guidelines in the core rulebook.


400,000 GP, please. That would be the equivalent price of a +20 enhancement bonus, minus half because it doesn't add to your damage, only your chance to hit.

Oh, and you're not allowed to spend more than 25% of your wealth on your "other" magic items, such as this one...

(Not that you'd need it by the time you could afford it. XD)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
GM Rednal wrote:

400,000 GP, please. That would be the equivalent price of a +20 enhancement bonus, minus half because it doesn't add to your damage, only your chance to hit.

On the other hand since it isn't an enhancement bonus it stacks with the enhancement bonus your weapons may have, so that balances things out a bit the other way.


True, although by the time you could (conceivably) have something like this, five more points of accuracy honestly isn't going to make much of a difference either way. XD But I suppose we COULD price it starting from +6...

(And for what it's worth, I'd be much more inclined to allow it as a 1/day or 3/day effect on another item...)

Community & Digital Content Director

Removed some heated/back and forth posts.

Grand Lodge

GM Rednal wrote:

True, although by the time you could (conceivably) have something like this, five more points of accuracy honestly isn't going to make much of a difference either way. XD But I suppose we COULD price it starting from +6...

(And for what it's worth, I'd be much more inclined to allow it as a 1/day or 3/day effect on another item...)

Don't forget that that item also removes any miss chance from concealment, as well.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

HalpoCoren wrote:

According to my calculations based on the table in the CRB

you could make a ring of vanish with continuous invisibility for considerably less than a Ring of Invisibility

You missed the entire item creation rules (all of them) and jumped to the "as a last resort use chart".

The first rule is look for similar items and use that price and mechanic.

In this case, Ring of Invisibility price and mechanics.

HalpoCoren wrote:
The Ring of Invisibility is underpriced, it should be 21,600

Actually, it is overpriced. It should cost 10,800 gp

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