Why should a kineticist expand his element?


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The more I look at the kineticist class, the more I wonder why anyone would want to go outside of their primary element. It seems to me that branching out is a strict downgrade to one's character power and overall versatility. You end up with less powers when you do that, and those you do get are either from your primary element anyways, or are strictly weaker since they have to be 2 spell levels lower than your max. Why would anyone ever opt for that?

Please sell me on a mixed element kineticist. In practice, what's so great about them over a more focused kineticist?


Because you avoid being shut down if your opponent is immune to your primary element.


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thorin001 wrote:

Because you avoid being shut down if your opponent is immune to your primary element.

Except for fire, I don't really see that happening, since pretty much all the others have multiple modes of attack. Even with fire, you can reduce resistances, blind foes, create smoke screens, or do a fair number of other useful options that still make you a viable threat to the enemy and a valuable asset to your party. That's hardly being "shut down."


It depends on the element and what you plan for your character. For example, my telekineticist is going to pick up the earth element at 7 because I'm going for a battlefield control style of play. She starts with the ability to move and manipulate with her mind but then gains the ability to do things like entangling and has more than just wall to use grappling with, in the form of deadly earth and eventually cloud when I get air for my final element. And yes while most of her tricks are aether related, other elements can provide useful enhancements to aid and uplift the power of the primary element.

Silver Crusade

Presumably you are talking about the level 7 option and not the later options.

At Level 7, think there is a decent case for Earth and Fire to branch out so they can energy and physical damage blasts respectively. On the other hand, you have probably built for your original section so those choices are not so useful when paired with a different blast type. (Ie spell penetration is great for fire blast but not so much for physical blasts). You could of course select a like option ( ie fire and cold) but that doesn't seem ideal as you don't get a composite (which seems really bad). I think the main reason is that you get a whole new list of infusions and wild talents to pick from. This is only really relevant if your game is going to high level so you can overcome the penalty for picking outside of your primary.

On the other hand, come the 2nd chance to choose another element at Level 15 there is very little reason to pick an element for the third time as you don't get a new simple blast, composite blast and you have probably picked up most of your choices from your element already. Plus the penalty to level doesn't really matter so much anymore.

Hmmm this post was supposed to be an argument for switching elements but it kinda ended being a pros and cons list. And admittedly my PFS Aerokineticist will be staying air. So I can fly at level 7 while I still have some of my career to go and not later when it's all but over.


aerokineticists can get flight at lv6. so changing elements or staying pure doesn't effect the flight

Designer

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Woodenman wrote:

Presumably you are talking about the level 7 option and not the later options.

At Level 7, think there is a decent case for Earth and Fire to branch out so they can energy and physical damage blasts respectively. On the other hand, you have probably built for your original section so those choices are not so useful when paired with a different blast type. (Ie spell penetration is great for fire blast but not so much for physical blasts). You could of course select a like option ( ie fire and cold) but that doesn't seem ideal as you don't get a composite (which seems really bad). I think the main reason is that you get a whole new list of infusions and wild talents to pick from. This is only really relevant if your game is going to high level so you can overcome the penalty for picking outside of your primary.

On the other hand, come the 2nd chance to choose another element at Level 15 there is very little reason to pick an element for the third time as you don't get a new simple blast, composite blast and you have probably picked up most of your choices from your element already. Plus the penalty to level doesn't really matter so much anymore.

Hmmm this post was supposed to be an argument for switching elements but it kinda ended being a pros and cons list. And admittedly my PFS Aerokineticist will be staying air. So I can fly at level 7 while I still have some of my career to go and not later when it's all but over.

I really like seeing pros and cons lists like this one, though Woodenman, as I absolutely love it when the option is more nuanced based on what you want to do with your concept for the character, with pros and cons, rather than something where one choice is just definitely way better than everything else. Of course, it's incredibly difficult to design it like that. I don't think I would ever have been able to get the balance of the five elements where it is today without all that help from so many playtesters.


I actually see expanding outwards as a huge benefit. Consider, you are trading away one wild talent (either infusion or utility) to gain access to a whole new list and are even repaid with a basic utility wild talent. While there are certainly a variety of composite concerns that make the choice more nuanced, if they were not a concern I would flatly choose variety every time.

I suppose though this might have to do with what levels you are looking at. At level 7, being pure is a huge benefit in the terms of getting an additional wild talent. Buuuut, some elements, like Void, are lacking in wild talents they want so why would you stay pure when there are more goodies elsewhere? Aether's only option for a decent composite is mixing into Void.

On the flip side, you have Fire which FIRE HOT and likes sticking to it's purity. Busting through that fire resist is a matter of throwing more flames at them and being too hot to handle. BURN, BURN, BURN AHAHAHAH!

Ahem, but yea, it all depends. In general, I would say the further you get away from level 7 the better being varied gets. It's instant gratification vs long term gain.

Silver Crusade

The value of branching out is based on two things: Base element and branch element.

Things like fire and earth, they're fine and dandy being solo. Both get an alternative travel method (hover/burrow), both get a great composite blast (blue flame/metal), and both have a solid enough talent list to stay happy for a long time.

Water and air, they're okay staying solo. Again, both have alternative travel (ice bridge/FLIGHT), a decent enough composite blast (nothing special here), and a serviceable talent list.

Aether and void on the other hand gain a lot through branching out. While they have alternative travel methods (hovering) and void has a decent composite blast (aether's composite is trash), the two have a less than impressive late game talent list, meaning sniping other people's talents is preferable.

And as stated in my guide, certain elements are just great to jump into, mostly aether and air for having solid early game talents which are able to be taken after not too much time afterwards.

While the -2 level thing hurts, this is a mid-game concern, and at mid game branching is generally a better option, especially for the latter 4 elements listed. But as always, the choice of branching is up to you, and only has value if you want to snipe lower level talents to bolster your array of abilities.


I really don't see the positive to staying pure. Even if you only grab a single utility from your secondary, it overshadows the benefit of doubling up at level 7 (witch are basically none).

Scarab Sages

Also, don't forget the benefit of Extra Wild Talent. Any talent you take with this feat is 2 levels lower than the highest-level wild talent from your primary element that you can currently use, even if it is in a secondary element.

It allows you to quickly add higher level talents from your secondary element.


For the case of fire, my PFS pyro branched out at 7 for air to get a physical blast and eventually will get air's reach for increased range on attacks. (I considered earth, but I don't consider magma composite any better than plasma and at least plasma allowed for brilliant and flash infusion. Magma works with eruption but the damage in so drastically decreased with physical blast it's more worthwhile to stick with fire blast for it).

I had to seriously weigh in on monster options being thrown at me. For example, golems or other creatures with fire immunity or immune to magic that involves SR. Would Burning infusion still work on something that's immune to spell resistance? It says has to overcome it first which would be impossible without Pure Flame infusion.

Then there's all the high level devils and demons on scenarios the pyro would volunteer for. After picking up feats like Toughness, Precise Shot, Weapon Finesse, and after level 6 bunch of Extra Wild Talents, not a lot of room for Spell Penetration. Easier to pick up a physical blast that's more universally applicable than spending a feat to help with SR. I'd be worried I'm more of a liability in parties than help if I gotta bank of caster level checks with everything I do.

Though next pyrokineticist I make from scratch (I haven't played one from level 1 for the finalized kineticist, instead updated the playtest version which starts off its wild talent progression MUCH differently) I think I'll go full fire instead of branching out to try something a bit newer and tougher. I'd just have to focus in a different direction than current pyro.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Protoman, I'm honestly not certain I'd recommend Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot unless you're relying on physical blasts.

With a pyro, you're always aiming for touch AC, so you can usually get by quite well even without those feats. I plan on playing a PFS human pyrokineticist in the near future who, by level 3, will have Unstoppable Magic, Spell Penetration, and Greater Spell Penetration--SR will pretty much never be a concern. Her later feats will likely be Toughness and Extra Wild Talent.

After playing the pyrokineticist pregen a couple of times, I'm not the least bit concerned about not having Point Blank Shot or Precise Shot.


-8 seems a bit much even for a touch attack.


Ravingdork wrote:

Protoman, I'm honestly not certain I'd recommend Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot unless you're relying on physical blasts.

With a pyro, you're always aiming for touch AC, so you can usually get by quite well even without those feats. I plan on playing a PFS human pyrokineticist in the near future who, by level 3, will have Unstoppable Magic, Spell Penetration, and Greater Spell Penetration--SR will pretty much never be a concern. Her later feats will likely be Toughness and Extra Wild Talent.

After playing the pyrokineticist pregen a couple of times, I'm not the least bit concerned about not having Point Blank Shot or Precise Shot.

It was much very needed in early levels for me when allies were providing cover and getting into melee with enemies (+3 to ranged blasts and a -4 to attack due to allies adjacent to enemies and +4 to AC/Touch AC cuz they're providing cover? Bleh), with standard 30 ft or extended range, allies are typically blocking at least 1 corner somewhere in the shot. I wasn't doing enough damage (1d6+3 with PBS at level 1) to account for a crappy modified to hit modifier. Also at lower levels, kineticists have a comparable advantage compared to other classes (besides alchemist) against swarms and incorporeal creatures, and they're typically sporting touch AC as decent as their regular AC.

It may not be as needed now, but I've been enjoying >90% hit rate for only so-so damage which is the main way he contributes at higher levels. Even now when I make a crappy roll (which is rather common unfortunately. I've proven to my gaming friends about my crummy luck a have terrible dice rolls on average), the only reason I'd hit was due to having Precise Shot.


Also note that when you swap out utility wild talent at lv10 you can swap out your primary talent with an equal level from your secondary. I believe Mark was the one to suggest doing this to get Wings of Air quickly if you branch into air.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well if it's really only a big problem for the pyrokineticist at low levels then I'd recommend taking Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot and Weapon Focus to up your accuracy at those low levels, then when Spell Resistance starts becoming more relevant, retrain some of those feats out for Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration.

You could also talk to your fellow players about not getting in your way. That's about as rude and irksome as getting into the warriors' charge lanes.


If you're worried about cover from allies, put in snaking infusion and approach from an angle you'd be clean with. You'd still hit firing into melee sometimes, but there's usually at least one non-melee opponent available.

I feel like going solo element gives more raw power, but far less versatility. Personally I favor versatility by a lot, since to me having a great solution to every situation feels much more likely to be powerful than having a perfect answer to only a few situations.

Take solo earth, for instance. They have a great solution to opponents with a high touch AC, but no real armor, spell resistance but no DR. Reverse the situation with a low touch AC, no SR, full plate +5, DR 10/- opponent and the Pyro starts looking pretty good right about now.

Same two characters swap opponents and you see the similar problems, the flip side of the coin from each view. But a Geo/Pyro/Geo has just as much firepower, a better selection of talents, and kills both enemies with impunity.


Spell Penetration feats will definitely be in a future build solo-elementy pyro build. Retraining two feats in PFS takes a lot of prestige points.

As for telling melee players to not get in the way; in narrow indoor spaces such options are often unavailable, and even in open spaces, I'm of the opinion if range characters can full attack wherever they want (not applicable to default kineticist, sure, but the policy applies in general) they can move elsewhere to take one shot and full attack afterwards. Melee characters have limited options on where they can attack from (typically adjacent or within 10 ft) and even more limited mobility moving around enemies or establishing tactical positioning for flanking or teamwork feats; ranged characters can attack from wherever, just with potential penalties. Most folks would prefer melee types directly between enemies and rest of non-melee party. It should be ranged characters' responsibilities to either get a clear shot or account for penalties. The prohibitive cover rules are the only thing ranged character supporters argue that full-attacking ranged archers aren't too strong when defending their builds to skeptical GMs/party members and those cover can be negated too easily in higher levels as it is: Improved Precise Shot or Snake infusion.

Designer

Protoman wrote:
The prohibitive cover rules are the only thing ranged character supporters argue that full-attacking ranged archers aren't too strong when defending their builds to skeptical GMs/party members and those cover can be negated too easily in higher levels as it is: Improved Precise Shot or Snake infusion.

Or worse, at 1st level by worshiping Erastil.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Shiroi wrote:
But a Geo/Pyro/Geo has just as much firepower, a better selection of talents, and kills both enemies with impunity.

Or you could have just been a straight aquakineticist or aerokineticist and had both a physical and an energy blast without having to give up any of that raw power.


Ravingdork wrote:
Shiroi wrote:
But a Geo/Pyro/Geo has just as much firepower, a better selection of talents, and kills both enemies with impunity.
Or you could have just been a straight aquakineticist or aerokineticist and had both a physical and an energy blast without having to give up any of that raw power.

But your options are still limited. Also some may not want to go with those elements.


What makes switching elements worth it to me is if you are gunning for snagging the low level talents of another element. With the extra talent feat working at -4 for both primary and secondary, you can grab several of them quickly enough.

All that you are really giving up is a 3rd level infusion... but those tend to be really good.

Something I've been agonizing over is whether or not I would prefer a Geokineticist to stay pure or take Air as a secondary. On the one hand, the level 10 mobility payout is rather spectacular (burrow speed, climb speed, fly, air bubble so I can stay underground as long as I want...) but losing out on the metal composite blast hurts!

This is a case where I can't decide if the loss to offense (moderate, as the composite blast is still quite good and pure physical) is worth the gain to mobility.


Geo is in a cool spot where it could really go either way. By staying you get metal blast and opens you up to rare metal and magnetic while going air gives you great mobility utility and sandstorm is nice in its own right with dual damage type and cloud infusion.

Designer

Texas Snyper wrote:
Geo is in a cool spot where it could really go either way. By staying you get metal blast and opens you up to rare metal and magnetic while going air gives you great mobility utility and sandstorm is nice in its own right with dual damage type and cloud infusion.

Yup! And Earth/Fire has a great mix of energy and physical, and Earth/Aether has an extremely synergistic pair of defenses and can make a formidable scout and infiltrator (invisible+earth glide). Earth/Water is probably the least juicy place to go after earth, to my eye.

Scarab Sages

Mark Seifter wrote:
Protoman wrote:
The prohibitive cover rules are the only thing ranged character supporters argue that full-attacking ranged archers aren't too strong when defending their builds to skeptical GMs/party members and those cover can be negated too easily in higher levels as it is: Improved Precise Shot or Snake infusion.
Or worse, at 1st level by worshiping Erastil.

Only with a longbow. Not much use to a kineticist.

Designer

Imbicatus wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Protoman wrote:
The prohibitive cover rules are the only thing ranged character supporters argue that full-attacking ranged archers aren't too strong when defending their builds to skeptical GMs/party members and those cover can be negated too easily in higher levels as it is: Improved Precise Shot or Snake infusion.
Or worse, at 1st level by worshiping Erastil.
Only with a longbow. Not much use to a kineticist.

Yup! That was about the (over-)plethora of options out there to archers in general.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Texas Snyper wrote:
Geo is in a cool spot where it could really go either way. By staying you get metal blast and opens you up to rare metal and magnetic while going air gives you great mobility utility and sandstorm is nice in its own right with dual damage type and cloud infusion.
Yup! And Earth/Fire has a great mix of energy and physical, and Earth/Aether has an extremely synergistic pair of defenses and can make a formidable scout and infiltrator (invisible+earth glide). Earth/Water is probably the least juicy place to go after earth, to my eye.

Now I really want to make an Earth/Aether antagonist who pops out of the floor invisible to full attack the party squishies (with melee the damage keeps up without having a composite blast). Holy crap and blindsense/sight don't automatically work...


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Thaago wrote:
On the one hand, the level 10 mobility payout is rather spectacular (burrow speed, climb speed, fly, air bubble so I can stay underground as long as I want...) but losing out on the metal composite blast hurts!

So the level by level breakdown of that build would probably look something like this?

1 - extended range
2 - earth walk or skilled kineticist
3 - kinetic blade
4 - earth climb
5 - bowling or entangling
6 - earth glide
8 - air shroud
9 - rare metal
10 - wings of air
11 - wall or grappling
12 - tremorsense


Ravingdork wrote:
Thaago wrote:
On the one hand, the level 10 mobility payout is rather spectacular (burrow speed, climb speed, fly, air bubble so I can stay underground as long as I want...) but losing out on the metal composite blast hurts!

So the level by level breakdown of that build would probably look something like this?

1 - extended range
2 - earth walk or skilled kineticist
3 - kinetic blade
4 - earth climb
5 - bowling or entangling
6 - earth glide
8 - air shroud
9 - rare metal
10 - wings of air
11 - wall or grappling
12 - tremorsense

I had this for the earth/air breakdown (not perfect, but prereqs are right I think):

1: Extended Range
2: Earth Walk
3: Kinetic Blade (Feat: weapon finesse)
4: Earth Climb
5: Entangling Infusion
6: Tremorsense
7: (Expanded Element) Basic Aerokinesis (Feat) Air's Reach
8: Shift Earth
9: FREE - impale? no metal but ok (Feat) Air's Leap (prereq :( )
10: Earth Glide, (Retrain Shift Earth) Wings of Air
11: FREE - Wall? (Feat) Air Shroud if needed
12: Ride the Blast

It takes a bunch of feats to get everything I want - really only Air's leap as a prereq for wings, but Air's Reach is really good. And Air Shroud lets the BBEG get away without having to hold their breath.


Just remeber that Composite mostly don't come into play until 11, since the extra damage compared to an empowered basic is really not worth the burn.
Also mark, Earth/water is awesome. I have an halfling tank with water shield + fullplate + earth DR that is a freaking beast. Also, healing yourself with the buffer is Awesome.


Dekalinder wrote:

Just remeber that Composite mostly don't come into play until 11, since the extra damage compared to an empowered basic is really not worth the burn.

Also mark, Earth/water is awesome. I have an halfling tank with water shield + fullplate + earth DR that is a freaking beast. Also, healing yourself with the buffer is Awesome.

Ya, I have looked at Earth+Water a lot for any Str. build Kineticist. It gives you a decent number of form infusions to get around low Dex. and with a dip to nab armor becomes a monster at taking damage. I think most people would ignore it since the Kineticist has more tools for mobile long range fighting, but it's a pretty interesting way to use the class. I need to try it sometime.


Ravingdork wrote:
Shiroi wrote:
But a Geo/Pyro/Geo has just as much firepower, a better selection of talents, and kills both enemies with impunity.
Or you could have just been a straight aquakineticist or aerokineticist and had both a physical and an energy blast without having to give up any of that raw power.

Pure water is dealing with the worst mobility talent though. I'd have a very difficult time staying pure on the water track and not branching out to air for flight.

Scarab Sages

Arachnofiend wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Shiroi wrote:
But a Geo/Pyro/Geo has just as much firepower, a better selection of talents, and kills both enemies with impunity.
Or you could have just been a straight aquakineticist or aerokineticist and had both a physical and an energy blast without having to give up any of that raw power.
Pure water is dealing with the worst mobility talent though. I'd have a very difficult time staying pure on the water track and not branching out to air for flight.

Agreed, but it's pretty cool for making Iceman, especially if you combine it with something that boosts land speed.


Yeah, it's not BAD by any means, but it's certainly not a no-brainer either. You can do it if you want without shooting yourself in the foot but one of the major advantages of this class over other martials is being hyper-mobile and you're mostly giving that up by going pure water.


The Mortonator wrote:
Dekalinder wrote:

Just remeber that Composite mostly don't come into play until 11, since the extra damage compared to an empowered basic is really not worth the burn.

Also mark, Earth/water is awesome. I have an halfling tank with water shield + fullplate + earth DR that is a freaking beast. Also, healing yourself with the buffer is Awesome.
Ya, I have looked at Earth+Water a lot for any Str. build Kineticist. It gives you a decent number of form infusions to get around low Dex. and with a dip to nab armor becomes a monster at taking damage. I think most people would ignore it since the Kineticist has more tools for mobile long range fighting, but it's a pretty interesting way to use the class. I need to try it sometime.

I did not go STR. My plan is to wait for the next big influx of cash (home campaign, we tend to get a big treasure every few level with nothing inbetween) to switch the water shroud to armor, get a Heavy shield, and retrain the single fighter level into kineticis to enjoy an even more stupidly high AC while still being a monster in DPR with the Whip. Halfling favorite class is damn good with kinetic healer.


To the OP, because some people find the loss of hit points from burn a hassle.
With optimal burn levels (3 at levels 6-10, 5 at 11-15, and 7 at 16+, with the biggest stat boost on Con) and the aether defense (force ward), you can make the hp loss largely go away, and have a more reasonable chance of hitting successfully. :)


Well I'm more than a little interested in a telekineticists that branches out into void.


Because ER and DR stack.

If you're going to try blasting something with even minimal DR/relevant ER, you're even worse than before.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Soilent wrote:

Because ER and DR stack.

If you're going to try blasting something with even minimal DR/relevant ER, you're even worse than before.

No, they don't. Damage reduction does not apply to energy attacks. Energy resistance does not apply to physical attacks.

Damage Reduction

Quote:
Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even nonmagical fire) ignore damage reduction.

Though the spells and spell-like ability bit has been clarified...

Damage Reduction: How does DR interact with magical effects that deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage?

...energy attacks still ignore damage reduction.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Luthorne wrote:
Soilent wrote:

Because ER and DR stack.

If you're going to try blasting something with even minimal DR/relevant ER, you're even worse than before.

No, they don't. Damage reduction does not apply to energy attacks. Energy resistance does not apply to physical attacks.

Damage Reduction

Quote:
Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even nonmagical fire) ignore damage reduction.

Though the spells and spell-like ability bit has been clarified...

Damage Reduction: How does DR interact with magical effects that deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage?

...energy attacks still ignore damage reduction.

However, if you are attacking with a composite that does both physical and energy damage, would it not have the physical portion reduced by DR, and the energy part reduced by energy resistance?

That sure seems like a double stack to me if attacking the wrong target (which will be pretty much every high level enemy in the game).


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
Luthorne wrote:
Soilent wrote:

Because ER and DR stack.

If you're going to try blasting something with even minimal DR/relevant ER, you're even worse than before.

No, they don't. Damage reduction does not apply to energy attacks. Energy resistance does not apply to physical attacks.

Damage Reduction

Quote:
Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even nonmagical fire) ignore damage reduction.

Though the spells and spell-like ability bit has been clarified...

Damage Reduction: How does DR interact with magical effects that deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage?

...energy attacks still ignore damage reduction.

However, if you are attacking with a composite that does both physical and energy damage, would it not have the physical portion reduced by DR, and the energy part reduced by energy resistance?

That sure seems like a double stack to me if attacking the wrong target (which will be pretty much every high level enemy in the game).

True, in that specific instance they would stack, but it seemed like he was saying that energy resistance and damage reduction always stacked, when it only applies to certain composite blasts.

However, it doesn't seem relevant to picking or not picking another element, since composite blasts of that nature can apply to both single element and dual-element composite blasts. Ice blast, thunderstorm blast, and void blast are all single-element and subject to it, but so are blizzard blast, charged water blast, magma blast, plasma blast, steam blast, summer blast, and winter blast which all mix elements...furthermore, mixed energy blasts could get reduced by multiple energy resistances/immunities, though I think negative admixture is currently the only way to do that.

Composite blasts from purely physical elements (autumn blast, metal blast, mud blast, sandstorm blast, spring blast) are the least likely to suffer in that regard, as is blue flame blast, being pure fire damage...though fire immunity is a major problem for that last.


I went fire I got to at level 7 I took earth and at 8 level I took the expended defense flesh of stone is this right my GM say I can't have this at 8 level I just went to make sure He right


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The best reasons to expand are to pick up cool composites or an expanded defense. You can get some juicy stuff from those.

I don't agree on Earth though. Some of the defensive options you can get by branching out are nifty (I like earth+water and earth+aether a lot) but in terms of blasts I just think metal is too good to delay or pass up. Between rare metal and its flexible damage type you can deal with most DR natively and next time you level up you can apply rare metal for free.

And if you really want you can use that free infusion expanding into your own element gives you to pick up magnetic so you can be as accurate as an energy blast and buff your allies all at once whenever you don't need the DR.

I'm also not really a fan of mixed blasts. At best you only get half screwed if you hit an enemy with the right kind of ER and DR and at worst you're getting doubled up on penalties by hitting both and either way it just feels like having one of each is better.

The only real scenario I can envision is one where you're encouraged to use a certain type of damage on an enemy in a way that isn't DR. Like say, a cave troll. Magma or Summer blast could hit their regeneration while still doing physical composite damage.

There aren't a lot of enemies with mechanics like that though and outside Regeneration I can't think of any sort of abilities that do that.


kalanthis wrote:
I went fire I got to at level 7 I took earth and at 8 level I took the expended defense flesh of stone is this right my GM say I can't have this at 8 level I just went to make sure He right

He is not right at all. Expanded Defense is a Universal Wild Talent and those are not affected by the Kineticist Level -2 in the Expanded Element ability. The only Wild Talents that are affected by that are Wild Talents specifically from your Expanded Element, in your specific case... Any Earth Wild Talents.

Now, if you tried to acquire the Expanded Defense Wild Talent through the Extra Wild Talent feat, then your GM would be correct; however, if you used your 8th level Utility Wild Talent to get Expanded Defense, then you are fine.


Dekalinder wrote:
I really don't see the positive to staying pure. Even if you only grab a single utility from your secondary, it overshadows the benefit of doubling up at level 7 (witch are basically none).

Well, the idea is not that you are only getting an extra talent, you are also NOT SPENDING future talents.

Two elements, but you don't get more talents to take their options. That might have some (slight) extra weight to the cons on expanding's side.

This might not necessarily matter in the long run, but it might see some crunch in the short run for the levels between the chances to expand elements (ie- level 7-15).

Now at level 15? Yeah, there is plenty of reason to expand, since you probably grabbed all the good stuff for your element already. So using your remaining talents to grab up some new branches seems like a fantastic idea. Just about anyone should at least consider grabbing either as their second expand option if they were mono with any other element.


lemeres wrote:
Dekalinder wrote:
I really don't see the positive to staying pure. Even if you only grab a single utility from your secondary, it overshadows the benefit of doubling up at level 7 (witch are basically none).

Well, the idea is not that you are only getting an extra talent, you are also NOT SPENDING future talents.

Two elements, but you don't get more talents to take their options. That might have some (slight) extra weight to the cons on expanding's side.

This might not necessarily matter in the long run, but it might see some crunch in the short run for the levels between the chances to expand elements (ie- level 7-15).

Now at level 15? Yeah, there is plenty of reason to expand, since you probably grabbed all the good stuff for your element already. So using your remaining talents to grab up some new branches seems like a fantastic idea. Just about anyone should at least consider grabbing either as their second expand option if they were mono with any other element.

Honestly, it depends on what your starting element is. Some are strong enough by going solo, while others are stronger with a complimenting element. Earth and fire are strong enough going solo while aether, I think, is the weakest solo element (but strongest utility element) and is much better branching out.

Owner - Gator Games & Hobby

Knowing the expected level-life-time of your character is important too.

If the campaign's ending at lvl. 15 or 16, it might be worth staying the course on a single element if you won't have time to pick up the best toys from your new one.


Texas Snyper wrote:
Honestly, it depends on what your starting element is. Some are strong enough by going solo, while others are stronger with a complimenting element. Earth and fire are strong enough going solo while aether, I think, is the weakest solo element (but strongest utility element) and is much better branching out.

Yeah- aether is a bit thin on infusions, but high on utility talents. So you should also consider which resources your elements use the most. If you picked another element and mostly grabbed infusions, then aether would be fine for splitting out.

And of course, if you can get infusions that work with multiple elements in your possession, that could be ideal (Assuming they have a good effect).

Liberty's Edge

If their Defense Talent is good, that's another advantage of branching out. Earth/Aether doesn't do the damage of Earth/Earth (with the metal composite blast and all), but having the extra Defense can make you super durable (DR and a regenerating HP buffer stack super well). You have to purchase it, but that doesn't mean it's not potentially worth it.

Obviously, that's less of a factor with Fire. But Fire just isn't a good secondary element IMO. You want to go Fire, you go all-in on the burning of things.

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