Yet Another Fighter Homebrew, repost


Homebrew and House Rules


Link here

Errrh, well. I recently looked at all the cool things the Swashbuckler can do, and then wondered why they haven't made an archetype that could be more fighter-like? As in, heavier armor, less emphasis on agile things and light weapons. Then I thought, really, what if I apply this principle and make a homebrew rework of the fighter, then just say that the swashbuckler is an archetype of that?

I think it turned out pretty well, but you be the judge. I'm using the barbarian and his rage powers as the primary class balance example. Comparing them in the same way you would compare a sorcerer with a wizard, I suppose.

The Barbarian still has all these supernatural/superhuman things he can do such as grow wings, have massive saves, break spells apart and get massive strength over this version of the fighter.

Meanwhile this version of the fighter, at least I hope, has a superior number of tactical options in combat, as well as resource managment, ways to do things besides full attack, ways to do things while he full attacks, ways to break the action economy a little bit, ways to stay alive outside of what you would expect for a fighter, as well as straying from the stereotype of the Big Dumb Fighter a little bit, I hope. Yet, he still can't fly, he still can't break spells apart and so on and so forth. This fighter is also a little more MAD than the barbarian.

Opinions, suggestions and so on are appreciated, but please abstain from posting something along the lines of "My own homebrew is shiny and cool, check it out.". I'd like to keep to the general spirit of the intended homebrew, and would prefer hearing objective balance-related criticism, over personal taste.

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On a side note, I'd recommend someone playing this homebrew to start with something like this.

20 point buy

16 +2 racial STR
15 DEX
12 CON
10 WIS
14 Int
7 CHA

General 1: Weapon Focus
Bonus Fighter 1: Extra Superiority (Panache/Grit/Whatever)

Trait1: Duelist (+1 to AoO for Opportune Parry and Riposte)
Trait2: +1 Will save, or anything else you'd rather prefer.

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Edit: One issue I can immediately see might be the abuse of Action Surge and the Cornugon Smash + Hurtful combo. Not sure how to remedy that without upsetting the class, though.

Edit2: I suppose this fighter could be adapted for the Unchained stamina rules by simply applying stamina to his Superiority pool in some manner. Considering the fact that stamina is more abundant than Superiority, I'd say that simply increasing the costs of Maneuvers should work.

Edit3: Reposting thread because the link on the last one was busted. This should work now.


Bump.

Kind of want an opinion on this. Is it balanced? Does it seem too much? What tier would this fighter be in? Enough to go into T3, or just a small hop to T4?

Grand Lodge

I don't like it having 4 base skill points and then requiring intelligence for features. Also, why is perception a class skill? It doesn't fit the fighter class and people giving it as a class skill "because perception" is not fair to other classes.

This doesn't make sense to me: The fighter may spend 1 superiority point as a swift action to heal for a number of 1d8+Con hit points equal to half her level (5d8+5xCon at 11). Swift action healing seems a bit too good. The wording is poor and the scaling is too high. When it's obtained at level 11, it's going to heal and average of around 32, which is about 2/5 of the total hit points at that level. Why not do it like the Kineticist's blasts? The name also suggests something done when the character is on it's last leg.

Why remove heavy armor but retain armor training?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Interesting variation. You left 'panache' in there a couple of times.

1) Too much MAD. The fighter is going to likely have 1 pt in his pool until level 10, barring getting a headband. There is no synergy with the rest of his class features, so he has no reason to boost it at early levels...it won't even help his saves much (reflex being the most unimportant of saves to a fighter).

2) Suddenly, at 10th level, he's going to get 5 hp fast healing/rd. Jeez. All he needs is a 16 Con and not spend below 3 in his pool. Isn't that just a huge shift. Yet only to half hp?

3) And then he gets Cure Deadly Wounds a potentially unlimited number of times a day, once per encounter/combat. Like, wow.

Sidewinder is nigh useless unless it can be done as an immediate action, not a free action.

regaining superiority favors high crit weapons. Annoying.

Pay off fatigue/exhaustion at what level? 15+? Seriously? A level 1 ability?
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You've got some additional combat options in there.
You've added some serious healing ability, with an odd limit of half hit points for the fast healing, and the ability to duplicate a personal lay on hands 1/encounter.

With a reserve, he gets some reach. WIth combat manuvers, he gets a small bonus and can affect bigger targets.

Yet, he has no recovery mechanism for most of the other conditions which could be inflicted upon him.

He has no leadership ability for his fellows.
No narrative power in the game, ability to conquer terrain, fly, travel long distances.
No real defenses against magic.

IN short, he's a fighter with a bit more combat ability, some healing thrown on top, and a predilection for high threat range weapons to power those and some additional fighting ability, while ignoring most of what's actually weak about the fighter class.

It's still a Tier 4. It just won't need as many uses of the CLW wand as before.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

Interesting variation. You left 'panache' in there a couple of times.

1) Too much MAD. The fighter is going to likely have 1 pt in his pool until level 10, barring getting a headband. There is no synergy with the rest of his class features, so he has no reason to boost it at early levels...it won't even help his saves much (reflex being the most unimportant of saves to a fighter).

2) Suddenly, at 10th level, he's going to get 5 hp fast healing/rd. Jeez. All he needs is a 16 Con and not spend below 3 in his pool. Isn't that just a huge shift. Yet only to half hp?

3) And then he gets Cure Deadly Wounds a potentially unlimited number of times a day, once per encounter/combat. Like, wow.

Sidewinder is nigh useless unless it can be done as an immediate action, not a free action.

regaining superiority favors high crit weapons. Annoying.

Pay off fatigue/exhaustion at what level? 15+? Seriously? A level 1 ability?
==============
You've got some additional combat options in there.
You've added some serious healing ability, with an odd limit of half hit points for the fast healing, and the ability to duplicate a personal lay on hands 1/encounter.

With a reserve, he gets some reach. WIth combat manuvers, he gets a small bonus and can affect bigger targets.

Yet, he has no recovery mechanism for most of the other conditions which could be inflicted upon him.

He has no leadership ability for his fellows.
No narrative power in the game, ability to conquer terrain, fly, travel long distances.
No real defenses against magic.

IN short, he's a fighter with a bit more combat ability, some healing thrown on top, and a predilection for high threat range weapons to power those and some additional fighting ability, while ignoring most of what's actually weak about the fighter class.

It's still a Tier 4. It just won't need as many uses of the CLW wand as before.

==Aelryinth

Fair enough. When doing this, I kept in mind the general idea of the fighter being a fighter, with the strengths and weaknesses of the fighter. I didn't really want to "fix" him, per se, but make the class live up to what it promises the player. I'm not sure if I managed to do that or not.

I think that if you take into consideration the general uses you could have with the various maneuvers, maintaining the various reserves needed for his "passives" to stay active is a bit tougher than you think. Opportune Parry and Riposte is a great defensive ability if one capitalizes on it, but in a situation where you have to use it extensively, you're going to burn a lot of superiority points.

As for the fighter having only one point, many classes with the panache/grit/luck mechanic have feats that grant them additional points. If it were me, I'd take Extra Superiority (Panache) at level 1.

I thought as much about Sidewinder, I'll give it a tweak.

As for the fatigue removal, the fighter doesn't actually need it all that much at earlier levels. You've got your party members, one of which might potentially have lesser restoration, to do that for you. Your job is to fight, and I generally wanted to add more creative ways for a fighter to do so.

Personally, I don't see why a fighter must be a great leader. If you want that, take the Leadership feat. Otherwise, I think that general "type" of character is much better covered by a cavalier than a fighter. One could potentially say that the cavalier and the fighter should be the same class, but I didn't really want to redesign the system, only to bring the fighter a little more in line with what's going on right now. T4 is still pretty good, that's where the Barbarian is at, which is what I was roughly aiming for.

I think, in general, this fighter gets a lot of abilities that other classes would wish they had, but don't because they're not a fighter. They're strictly abilities that are to do with weapon mastery, mastery of the body and whatnot in flavor. Such as the extra reach.

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I really had the same problem in mind, with the class seeming to favor high-crit weapons over others. I wasn't sure how to fix that, or what to place in exchange for the crit mechanic commonly used in panache and grit. It's very easy to make the pool of points too superfluous with a misstep here, or very easy to make it impossible to regain.

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Do you think that maybe Last Stand should be a once per day ability, then? I was sort of aiming for the Second Wind used in 5e, since I thought it was a good thing to have in a tough situation.

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I agree that it's MAD, but with 20 points worth of stats and a good race, you could easily reach 14 int at level 1. Or just stay at 12, and pick a human and use the extra feat for Extra Superiority. (Just like Extra Panache)

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As for the second point, with the fast healing, I assume you're being sarcastic. But well, I thought that giving the fighter a little more effective HP or just fast healing in general would be a fun mechanic. I didn't really intend for these abilities to be defining of the fighter, and if you look at what else he gets that level, the healing is more gravy than anything. (Action Surge, extra swift/immediate actions to perform more maneuvers with. I think that's a pretty substantial ability at level 15.)

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In conclusion, I really didn't want to redesign the fighter in regard to the system. I didn't want him to be independant of his party, I didn't want him to be a not-fighter or him to overstep his boundaries. I was more concerned with the fact that the description of the class, being the most versatile and skillful martial class, didn't match up to the actual mechanical representation. There's not much skill in saying "I attack" every round, because it's the most effective thing for you to do at any given time.

Bearing this in mind, are there any other suggestions you could offer in terms of fixing things? The healing ability has already rubbed off the wrong way for two people, so perhaps that needs to go. I'd also very much like to get rid of this fighter's increased dependance on high-crit weapons.


Some Other Guy wrote:

I don't like it having 4 base skill points and then requiring intelligence for features. Also, why is perception a class skill? It doesn't fit the fighter class and people giving it as a class skill "because perception" is not fair to other classes.

This doesn't make sense to me: The fighter may spend 1 superiority point as a swift action to heal for a number of 1d8+Con hit points equal to half her level (5d8+5xCon at 11). Swift action healing seems a bit too good. The wording is poor and the scaling is too high. When it's obtained at level 11, it's going to heal and average of around 32, which is about 2/5 of the total hit points at that level. Why not do it like the Kineticist's blasts? The name also suggests something done when the character is on it's last leg.

Why remove heavy armor but retain armor training?

I don't see why it wouldn't have 4 base skill points. One could easily imagine a fighter hailing from a prestigious war academy and having recieved a passable education. Perception? Well, I can't imagine a fighter without it. How are guards guarding things without perception being their class skill? How are soldiers standing watch for their sleeping allies without perception as their class skill? It doesn't make sense to me, personally, and these are arguments that have been said many times by other people as well.

As for the healing, I kind of thought this ability wasn't overly powerful even with this, personally. Paladins can heal for more than that in a single turn, and many more times per day. Granted the fighter has no thematic reason to be able to heal himself like a paladin. Would making it once per day be more balanced, for example? Or should I just drop it entirely?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Having it be a 'blast heal' if he's reduced to negative HP would be an interesting variant.

I personally did it as turning hp dmg to temp HP dmg, which heals at level/hr. Slower and more gradual recovery. But it started at level 2, not 10th.

cavaliers shouldn't need to exist. They should be a three feat variant of a fighter, tops.

You're advocating a high point buy, and basically saying don't play a fighter under 14 Int if you want a bonus from Stats. Like, ugh, man. This is why I hate tying key class features to stats. It completely biases the class towards high Int, high threat weaponry...you need the Int so you have enough superiority, you need high threat weaponry so you can recharge it so you can spend it to stay viable.

Bleh.

Fatigue/exhaustion removal is a level 1 racial ability for humans 1/day. You're waiting until the end of the game to give it to a fighter. Makes no sense. It's a level 1 ability for Oracles. The only class that it is high level for is barbs, and that's because of tireless rage cycling.

I'm not saying your build isn't tough, and that it can't fight. It's still shoddy on saves, it's has no anti magic, the immunities it gets are too late to make a difference in flavor or the game, and it doesn't address the real weaknesses of the class - movement, narrative, and suchlike.

Fast healing is a powerful ability Out of Combat. In Combat, worthless. Having an ability to recover HP at the end of combat is okay...it just lightens the healing load some. An arbitrary limit of 1/2 HP is just kind of weird. If you were using Health/Vitality and it restored Health OR Vitality, that would be something else.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

Having it be a 'blast heal' if he's reduced to negative HP would be an interesting variant.

I personally did it as turning hp dmg to temp HP dmg, which heals at level/hr. Slower and more gradual recovery. But it started at level 2, not 10th.

cavaliers shouldn't need to exist. They should be a three feat variant of a fighter, tops.

You're advocating a high point buy, and basically saying don't play a fighter under 14 Int if you want a bonus from Stats. Like, ugh, man. This is why I hate tying key class features to stats. It completely biases the class towards high Int, high threat weaponry...you need the Int so you have enough superiority, you need high threat weaponry so you can recharge it so you can spend it to stay viable.

Bleh.

Fatigue/exhaustion removal is a level 1 racial ability for humans 1/day. You're waiting until the end of the game to give it to a fighter. Makes no sense. It's a level 1 ability for Oracles. The only class that it is high level for is barbs, and that's because of tireless rage cycling.

I'm not saying your build isn't tough, and that it can't fight. It's still shoddy on saves, it's has no anti magic, the immunities it gets are too late to make a difference in flavor or the game, and it doesn't address the real weaknesses of the class - movement, narrative, and suchlike.

Fast healing is a powerful ability Out of Combat. In Combat, worthless. Having an ability to recover HP at the end of combat is okay...it just lightens the healing load some. An arbitrary limit of 1/2 HP is just kind of weird. If you were using Health/Vitality and it restored Health OR Vitality, that would be something else.

==Aelryinth

Well, I was under the impression that the game was generally balanced around 20 point buy. But, once again, you could just dump INT for what it's worth, because you'll have 1 point regardless, and then simply keep taking Extra Superiority feats, getting 2 points per feat. Besides, with that logic, one could say that wizards shouldn't have their spells or DCs work off of intelligence. I thought it to be more thematic than anything. It takes a lot more brain power to be a fighter than a barbarian, for example, because you don't have rage or a spirit's blessings and so on. You just have your sword and your armor, and you have to work with that. I think that catches the essence of the fighter (as it is presented in pathfinder, not what it theoretically should be) quite well. Though I can see how it might be a problem for those who want to play a bit more of a simple fighter with STR and CON as their primary worries. The class can still work for them, even then.

That healing mechanic might be better, actually. I'll think of something along those lines.

Yeah, I know they don't, but they do. I didn't really want to remake the way classes work in pathfinder, just wanted to make the fighter deliver what it promises.

Well, the barbarian gets Tireless Rage because of rage cycling late. The fighter gets fatigue/exhaustion removal because it can spam its superiority points into getting more swift actions with which it could do quite a few maneuvers. I'm even worried the Cornugon Smash + Hurtful combo paired with this would break the game a little under certain circumstances. Besides, each class has it's own thing. If we go down that alley, we'll end up with a 9 spell level divine/arcane/druid with full bab, perfect saves, spell resistance at level 1, 8 skill points and feats every level. I think each class is defined by their respective weakness just as much as they are by their strength. And the fighter would stop being the fighter if you started tacking on leadership abilities, amazing saves against everything, nigh immortality and so on. It'd be a demi-god, not a fighter.

Well, giving a fighter complete fast healing seems weird as well. If the 1/2 HP doesn't fit, then maybe I should switch it out for something different. I sort of imagined it as the Barbarian's healing ability thematically. Or, if we go down that way, Kenshiro's "fighting spirit" from Fist of the North Star.

If possible, do you have any suggestions that would remedy the high-crit range weaponry dependancy issue?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Arrogant Knight wrote:

Couple points...

Fighters TRAIN. Barbs get their power from rage. Paladins have a divine source. Rangers have a natural source. Fighters traintraintrain. You don't have to be smart if you train enough. The others get superpowers. Fighters LEARN THINGS BY TRAINING.

That's how you approach it. And you try to decouple mechanics from stat requirements. It helps keep control.

IN place of high threat range, how about when he hits a foe by +5 or more? Still requires a high die roll, but isn't a threat, and could apply to multiple attacks, and any weapon.

Here's some alternative 'healing methods' for the fighter:

Bravery bonus t/day: Convert dmg to temp hp = Fort Save + level. This scales, is 'slow' fast healing, and believable (this injury isn't as bad as we thought it was). Con bonus will increase healing, as will level and Fort save buffers, and number of uses/day can be increased with feats.
at higher levels, increase the speed at which temp hp heal for broader effect, and have it remove things like nausea, sickness, fatigue, etc.

Bravery t/day, heal self = lay on hands of equal paladin level. Also gets rid of the nausea/exhaustion line of stuff in line with paladins. Fighter only. Can also use Godless Healing as a guideline here.

Any magical healing effect on the fighter uses the fighter's level or caster level of the effect, whichever is higher. So wands and potions heal more on a fighter then on others.

Potions drunk by the fighter are at the fighter's level or CL. Healing potions have double normal effect (this means Potions are as gp efficient as wands for fighters, which is a cost saver benefit so they don't have to buy CLW wands).

Fighters get HP back at the end of a fight = (Fort save, Con score, Fighter level, stamina, heal ranks, something).

Keep in mind all healing does is SAVE TIME AND MONEY, and grant INDEPENDENCY FROM HEALERS. Which is GREAT, but doesn't make the class more Powerful, per se, simply more independent and less reliant on spellcasters and cure items.
Since even barbs have a potential rage healing option, it also makes perfect sense for fighters to have something.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

If you want an intelligent fighter, here's another idea.

Use a variant of Martial Flexibility that fetches feats.

A number of times/day = Bravery bonus, the fighter can get a number of Combat feats = his Bravery bonus + Int modifier (maximum of 2x Bravery). These feats remain until he uses his Martial mastery again.

This will reward an intelligent fighter with 'bonus feats for high Int' every time he uses martial mastery.

I would then have one of the benefits of Expertise being able to sub for Int on any required score, meaning any fighter who got Expertise will end up with a +6 feat bonus on this check at high levels!

Note that with this system you could actually get rid of bonus feats entirely, since the fighter could end up with the 12 bonus feats he normally gets, except he can shuffle them around 6 t/day!

==Aelryinth

Grand Lodge

Arrogant Knight wrote:

I don't see why it wouldn't have 4 base skill points. One could easily imagine a fighter hailing from a prestigious war academy and having recieved a passable education. Perception? Well, I can't imagine a fighter without it. How are guards guarding things without perception being their class skill? How are soldiers standing watch for their sleeping allies without perception as their class skill? It doesn't make sense to me, personally, and these are arguments that have been said many times by other people as well.

The same justification for perception can be used for any class, I just feel that people creating classes make it a class skill because it's perception. I don't feel fighters should get 4 skill points because they aren't *skilled* at many different things. They train to fight, not to know things, or to learn languages, or to disable devices. This is just my own feeling toward it, of course.

Quote:
As for the healing, I kind of thought this ability wasn't overly powerful even with this, personally. Paladins can heal for more than that in a single turn, and many more times per day. Granted the fighter has no thematic reason to be able to heal himself like a paladin. Would making it once per day be more balanced, for example? Or should I just drop it entirely?

But that's what paladins do. They don't get tons of feats or, in this case, cool abilities to use. They can heal, smite, and cast a few spells. They are also at 5d6 at level 11 and only 6-8 times a day. This would be potentially unlimited since you can regain the resource. I don't think once per day would even be worth having. To me, the name Last Stand says temporary hit points. If I look at the WoW ability Last Stand (I know, taboo), it gives a temporary boost to hit points and then fades.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Perception should DEFINITELY be on a fighter's skill list. The ability to see and sense a target, measure them up, notice weak points, styles, hidden weapons, range of motion...good martial combatants are extremely sense-oriented. Especially anything with a ranged attack, or a class that will be undertaking bodyguard, hunting or sentry duties, all which fall into a fighter's paradigm.

perception is a basic survival skill for the non-magical. Saying it shouldn't be on a fighter's list is saying it shouldn't be on a rogue or ranger's list, either.

Spellcasters? Not so much. Why have perception when you can detect whatever faithfully?

As for healing, remember...magical universe. If exceptional healing is available, the fighter is butt stupid not to have developed SOMETHING to take advantage of it.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

If you want an intelligent fighter, here's another idea.

Use a variant of Martial Flexibility that fetches feats.

A number of times/day = Bravery bonus, the fighter can get a number of Combat feats = his Bravery bonus + Int modifier (maximum of 2x Bravery). These feats remain until he uses his Martial mastery again.

This will reward an intelligent fighter with 'bonus feats for high Int' every time he uses martial mastery.

I would then have one of the benefits of Expertise being able to sub for Int on any required score, meaning any fighter who got Expertise will end up with a +6 feat bonus on this check at high levels!

Note that with this system you could actually get rid of bonus feats entirely, since the fighter could end up with the 12 bonus feats he normally gets, except he can shuffle them around 6 t/day!

==Aelryinth

Have you... looked through all of the abilities? Your current suggestion implies you haven't. Take a good hard look at the 3rd level Maneuvers.


Some Other Guy wrote:
Arrogant Knight wrote:

I don't see why it wouldn't have 4 base skill points. One could easily imagine a fighter hailing from a prestigious war academy and having recieved a passable education. Perception? Well, I can't imagine a fighter without it. How are guards guarding things without perception being their class skill? How are soldiers standing watch for their sleeping allies without perception as their class skill? It doesn't make sense to me, personally, and these are arguments that have been said many times by other people as well.

The same justification for perception can be used for any class, I just feel that people creating classes make it a class skill because it's perception. I don't feel fighters should get 4 skill points because they aren't *skilled* at many different things. They train to fight, not to know things, or to learn languages, or to disable devices. This is just my own feeling toward it, of course.

Quote:
As for the healing, I kind of thought this ability wasn't overly powerful even with this, personally. Paladins can heal for more than that in a single turn, and many more times per day. Granted the fighter has no thematic reason to be able to heal himself like a paladin. Would making it once per day be more balanced, for example? Or should I just drop it entirely?
But that's what paladins do. They don't get tons of feats or, in this case, cool abilities to use. They can heal, smite, and cast a few spells. They are also at 5d6 at level 11 and only 6-8 times a day. This would be potentially unlimited since you can regain the resource. I don't think once per day would even be worth having. To me, the name Last Stand says temporary hit points. If I look at the WoW ability Last Stand (I know, taboo), it gives a temporary boost to hit points and then fades.

I find it strange that you complain about perception, and not about Diplomacy, Sense Motive and me removing Survival. I mean, it seems to be your pet peeve, which is fine, I get that. But if you take a look at the class as a whole, forget it has perception in it, what do you think? In fact, let's just forget everything related to balance. Would you find this more fun to play compared to the old fighter? If you were another martial and this guy was in your party, would you feel overshadowed?

Grand Lodge

Arrogant Knight wrote:


I find it strange that you complain about perception, and not about Diplomacy, Sense Motive and me removing Survival. I mean, it seems to be your pet peeve, which is...

You're right, I glanced over those. More fun? Probably. It closer resembles the path of war classes, which I'm a big fan of.


Some Other Guy wrote:
Arrogant Knight wrote:


I find it strange that you complain about perception, and not about Diplomacy, Sense Motive and me removing Survival. I mean, it seems to be your pet peeve, which is...
You're right, I glanced over those. More fun? Probably. It closer resembles the path of war classes, which I'm a big fan of.

So it all mostly makes sense besides the healing abilities, got it. I'll find something to replace them with then. Thanks!

As for Sense Motive, well. Sense Motive actually allows you to evaluate how strong/dangerous a given individual is, so I thought that this is something a fighter should indeed be able to do. Diplomacy, I guess, I'll take off the list. Perception, though, I think just fits the class. It seems like the fighter taking first watch should be able to do it effectively, as it's one of the most basic things soldiers do. The same can't be said for many other classes.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Arrogant Knight wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

If you want an intelligent fighter, here's another idea.

Use a variant of Martial Flexibility that fetches feats.

A number of times/day = Bravery bonus, the fighter can get a number of Combat feats = his Bravery bonus + Int modifier (maximum of 2x Bravery). These feats remain until he uses his Martial mastery again.

This will reward an intelligent fighter with 'bonus feats for high Int' every time he uses martial mastery.

I would then have one of the benefits of Expertise being able to sub for Int on any required score, meaning any fighter who got Expertise will end up with a +6 feat bonus on this check at high levels!

Note that with this system you could actually get rid of bonus feats entirely, since the fighter could end up with the 12 bonus feats he normally gets, except he can shuffle them around 6 t/day!

==Aelryinth

Have you... looked through all of the abilities? Your current suggestion implies you haven't. Take a good hard look at the 3rd level Maneuvers.

You obviously didn't read what I posted above this, I suggest you redo so.

Your 'martial mastery' requires using his extremely few superiority points to gain 1 feat until end of encounter.

My proposition above is gaining anywhere from 2-12 feats at one time, and they last until you change them again. In other words, the ENTIRE AMOUNT of the fighter's bonus feats!

And instead of wasting more precious feats buying superiority points, he can just buy Expertise, and his INt bonus will be his expertise bonus, auto scaling. i.e. a fighter taking Expertise may sub his Expertise bonus for his int bonus for any purpose.

Thereby removing the INt requirement and MADness.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

Bravery bonus t/day:

Bravery t/day,

Never mention Bravery. Anything that keys off of bravery breaks the archetype concept. Most of them replace bravery. You pretend you're keeping other classes from getting the fighter's stuff, but all you're really doing is preventing the fighter from using the only fighter exclusive stuff he actually has now.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

I'll keep using Bravery because it should break.

All you need do is insert language that "any ability that replaces Bravery counts as Bravery for this ability' if you want to be serious about it.

But Archetypes are Dumb for fighters. They are 3 feats, tops. I mean, seriously. One hand fighter? That's a weapon c hoice. 2 weapon fighter? That's a fighter taking a feat chain.

archetypes are JUST MORE FEATS. That's all they are. Invalidating them should be so low on your concerns list as to be unmentionable.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:


==Aelryinth

You know, I get where you're coming from and all, but I think you essentially want the fighter class to do EVERYTHING to overcompensate for them not being very significant in the last three editions of dnd. Giving something like the ability to switch out all his feats, making a class that counterintuitively doesn't rely on absolutely any ability scores, so on and so on... Have you considered playing a word-based RPG instead of dnd? Don't take this the wrong way, it's just that you seem to be talking about these outlandish things and about what the fighter "should have been" according to your own subjective opinion.

So as not to derail this thread into Yet Another Rant About The Fighter as a whole... Would you find this version of the fighter more fun? If you were playing another martial class, would you feel overshadowed by this version of the fighter if you were both in the same party? When, and if, answering these questions, please try to stray from what every class should be in your mind and think about the current pathfinder system and this specific fighter.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

I find a system where the character is defined by how outlandish his stats can be much less useful then one where he is defined by his skills.

It is also closer to how wizards are defined by the spells they use, and not by whether they have a 24 or 30 Str score. The spells are the important things.

Spells in this context are equivalent to skills.

Many, many problems in the game arise because there is no cap on stats. Ergo, head the problem off at the pass. ANY character can end up with +5 or +6 to all stats at level 20...Enhance +6, Inherent +5 to all stats.

That means a +5 or +6 bonus. That's worked into the expectations of the game.

Start pulling size, polymorph and other shenanigans, and balance in the game starts falling off the rails.

I have no problem with rewarding a character for having good stats. But forcing them to have good stats just to make use of class abilities?!? That's grossly unfair. It's like forcing wizards to have a good Wisdom score so they can cast spells, but no other real benefits.

So, LOOK at what I proposed. If you want to make an intelligent fighter, what does he get?

He gets two feats every four levels, as opposed to one. He gets BONUS FEATS.
Any other fighter has to spend a feat on Expertise to get the same benefit. So, he gets a bonus for high Intelligence.

Reward the high intelligence in its own way, but don't make it necessary for the build.
And CAP THE BENEFIT. So some wizard doesn't take a level of fighter and get +10 bonus feats. Cap it. Be blunt about it. It's only meant to be 'this' good, not unlimited good. Not abusable.

There used to be dex to damage and int to AC classes meant for fighters, whose pre-reqs all elves fell into (needed a martial weapon, yay elven familiarity) in 3e. Naturally, elves took full advantage of these, and you had elven wizards walking around with +10 to AC from Int scores.

The biggest problem with tying benefits to stats is when people blow the tops off those stats. By assigning the bonuses by class level, they get the same kind of benefits, but it prevents ABUSE...that's why you do it.

If you don't abuse the system, tying Stats to benefit is just a sly way of getting around posting "+1 to X every 2-3 levels."

Think about it. What if the paladin benefit of Grace was +1 to saves/3 levels? (which is about how a non-abused build will work out to?)

Suddenly, you have to post Grace +1, Grace+2, Grace+3 every 3 levels. It becomes a limit you have to post out.

But if we just say Cha to saves, post it once at level 2, people forget that it scales, and it seems MUCH less powerful...when actually, it's far more powerful, because there's no maximum.

Contrast with Bravery +2 actually being considered a CLASS FEATURE for fighters, because it went up by +1!! If he got Wis to Bravery instead, it would be Soooooo much stronger, and it would only get mentioned ONCE on the fighter table, to boot!

It's subtle perception tricks like this that contribute to class imbalance.

So, go ahead and take a look at the classes with an eye for that kind of little imbalancing detail, and you'll see why I don't like Stat to X. The biggest reason is it looks 'small' against +x/Level', when in reality it is usually much better.

Here's another example; instead of giving Rogues Dex to damage, why not simply give them +1 dmg/sneak attack die with finessable weapons?

In the end, it's actually MORE POWERFUL then dex to damage. It's the equivalent of having a Dex score 20 points higher then your Strength score!

But it means you will have to up your Str score Stat to do more dmg, which keeps Str important. It also caps the benefit at +10 instead of 36 or 40 Dex or something...it actually has a LIMIT you cannot abuse with a build.

And limits are good things.
========
In summation:

1) Stats to X skills having no caps leads to abuse.
2) Stats to x Skills undersells how powerful they are in relation to +x/Level skills, when actually they are as or more powerful.
3) limits on special abilities are good things and help stop game abuse before they start.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:
==Aelryinth

I feel sorry for you. May one day your tormented soul find peace.

*Metaphorically closes thread*

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