Swarms v Animals

[gnrrrg]

The animal speaker bard archetype has the following class feature:

"Animal Friend: An animal speaker selects a particular kind of animal, such as apes, badgers, bears, boars, cats, snakes, and so on. The bard gains a +4 bonus on Handle Animal checks to influence animals of his chosen kind. Animals of this kind have a starting attitude of at least "indifferent" toward the bard and never attack him unless he attacks them first."

I have an animal speaker who has chosen rats as their animal friend type. Would a rat swarm attack them unprovoked?

Swarm traits say that, "A swarm has the characteristics of its type, except as noted here." So they do count as rats, however it further says, "Swarm Attack: Creatures with the swarm subtype don't make standard melee attacks. Instead, they deal automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed." So they do automatic damage without an attack roll, but it is still described as an attack. Which part of this takes precedent - that it is automatic damage or that it is described as an attack?

[MeanMutton]

A rat's type is "animal". The swarm trait line there means that a rat swarm has the characters of a creature of the animal type. As such, I am unconvinced that they count as rats, particularly with this line being part of their entry: "A rat swarm typically consists of a biting, roiling mass of hundreds of disease-ridden rats driven to uncharacteristic heights of aggression by fantastic and overwhelming hunger."

[Matthew Downie]

I'd say that if the swarm had an attitude of 'indifferent' it wouldn't attack him, but as swarms are normally hostile that is unlikely to apply.

[mdt]

The swarm is made up of rats.

Rats have a starting attitude of 'indifferent' toward the bard only. They can still be hostile to everyone else. By the same token, a 30 ft giant ancient dire rat could be hostile but would still be indifferent to the bard. The attitude of the rat or rats is immaterial, toward the bard, they are indifferent.

Now, if the Bard steps in them, they might bite him. But as long as he's not poking them with sticks, they should ignore him.

[Matthew Downie]

Matthew Downie wrote:

I'd say that if the swarm had an attitude of 'indifferent' it wouldn't attack him, but as swarms are normally hostile that is unlikely to apply.

Rereading the description, I disagree with this and agree with mdt.

[Jaswinder Aniljit]

I'd say it's an effect that doesn't target a set number of individuals.

If one rat or two rats would not attack the Bard, then one thousand or two thousand wouldn't, either.

At least, that's how I've described my Animal Speaker Bard before, who's chosen animal type is "snakes".

[DM_Blake]

The real question I wonder about is whether "indifferent" refers only to hostility, or does it also refer to hunger. Sure, the rats might be hostile to everyone in the group while only indifferent to the bard, but if they're hungry, they might eat the bard anyway. "Nothing personal, dude; you're just food."

I could argue this either way. I don't believe "indifferent" is defined anywhere, so each GM has to determine exactly what that means. It's easy enough to assume that an indifferent monster might eat some food that it feels indifferent about - I often eat steak but I'm totally indifferent to cows.

However, I would assume that the RAI on this one is that "indifferent" includes "will not attack". If that assumption is correct, then eating the bard is out of the question because they won't attack him (it's hard to define "eating" in game mechanics without including an attack).

So, for me, I would assume that the rat swarm would ignore the bard. Maybe climb on him and crawl all over him, but not eat him or attack him or damage him. For my purposes, they are indifferent to him in the same way they might be indifferent to a floor or a wall or a table.

But I wouldn't blame a GM that decides the rats are hungry enough to "indifferently" eat the bard...

[el cuervo]

gnrrrg wrote:

I have an animal speaker who has chosen rats as their animal friend type.

Pied piper? ;)