Channel Ray


Rules Questions

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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

Ive seen people talking about this feat on several sources yet I've never seen it. Its listed as a general feat. I cannot find it in the Pathfinder Masterworks app, or on the Pathfinder PRD. Can someone tell me what book its located in so I can try to find it physically? Has this rule since been removed from play?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Its in Pathfinder Player Companion: Ranged Tactics Toolbox

Scarab Sages

Channel Ray description.

It's a pretty poor feat imo, it's only benefit is that it allows you a chance to score a critical hit.


That's actually false. It does far better than that.

By increasing the DC by 2, many builds such as wine varient channeling become very potent. You can affect people with very strong resistance.

Crit is good. Hard to resist is even better.

Plus it now allows you to use it with things that are able to affect rays, that's a lot of feats.


What are some examples of ray altering feats you could see improving this?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
BadgerBlight wrote:
What are some examples of ray altering feats you could see improving this? Also i am unfamiliar with wine variant channeling.

Weapon Focus (Ray), Improved Critical (Ray), etc...


But improved critical doesnt specify ray like weapon focus does. Are rays for all intents and purpose to be considered weapons?

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
BadgerBlight wrote:
But improved critical doesnt specify ray like weapon focus does. Are rays for all intents and purpose to be considered weapons?

Yes.

Grand Lodge

Also note that it strengthens PC builds that can channel negative, since it gives them more options to use it as an attack without harming their allies due to lack of targets they can select out.

The range increases are pretty nice, as well. At 5th level, that is a 90' ray. And, with a Phylactery of <appropriate> channeling, you add another 60' to the range.

Oh, and other feats that can be applied: Point Blank Range, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, with 4 levels of Fighter, Weapon Specialization, etc.

As a ranged touch attack, though, it wouldn't qualify for Deadly Aim.

And, yes, crit is possible, feats are possible, higher DC is good, and it gives the channeler, either type, more options. I think it'll work with Quick Channel, allowing two attacks in a single round, albeit at the cost of three channels.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Channel Ray, Weapon Focus(Ray) and Weapon Versatility(Ray) is a fun combo.


Just adding that +2 DC could let you nail an enemy who otherwise might laugh it off. Turning it into a ranged touch attack with range increasing with the scaling damage?! Can we make more feats like this please? This feat is fantastic. One of my sons always plays a paladin and it did not take long for him to add this feat to his character.

Scarab Sages

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Channel Ray, Weapon Focus(Ray) and Weapon Versatility(Ray) is a fun combo.

While it works via RAW, expect table variation on that one.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Indeed.

Also, a Warpriest with Weapon Focus(Ray) using Sacred Weapon is another interesting combo.

That class gets Channel too!


30ft per channel die is pretty decent too. Can't get to your ally? Channel Ray him! Need to snipe a Vampire? Channel Ray!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Heal Gun is fun.

Add a Conductive weapon to the mix, and fire off healing bullets.

Scarab Sages

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Indeed.

Also, a Warpriest with Weapon Focus(Ray) using Sacred Weapon is another interesting combo.

That class gets Channel too!

Sacred Weapon specifically doesn't alter the dice for energy attacks, so that one doesn't work by RAW.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Ah, but with Weapon Versatility, you could do non-energy damage!


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Ah, but with Weapon Versatility, you could do non-energy damage!

Expect table variation: Channel Energy doesn't have a way to grip it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Neither does an unarmed strike.


There are other feats for Unarmed Strike.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

You are missing the point.

Weapon Versatility(Unarmed Strike) is a legal, functioning choice.

The feat works with Bites, Armor Spikes, Blade Boots, and various other weapons that you don't need to grip.

It even works with Bows.


I wouldn't allow it due to the fact you aren't holding a ray in any form, it's ranged energy. I wouldn't allow it for bows either, to be honest. Same reason, you're not gripping the thing doing the damage.

As said expect table variation but to me gripping your holy symbol so positive energy comes out in the form of slashing damage is just not even close to what this feat is about and frankly I don't see the RAW there either.

However as a ranged heal to an ally that's downed, this is amazing. Doesn't cost you a spell slot and you can stabilize or even put to positives the hit points of any ally.

As I said before, a great feat.


Because you hold your holy symbol differently, it changes from energy damage to physical?! As GM, I would ROTFL at any character who tried to argue this.
And how is a ray an "Unarmed Strike"?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I am saying, how do you shift your grip on an unarmed strike?

The feat works with unarmed strikes, and many other weapons you don't grip.

I don't see a "gripped only" restriction.

Yes. Some people cannot look past the fluff at all.

Blows their damn minds.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

I am saying, how do you shift your grip on an unarmed strike?

The feat works with unarmed strikes, and many other weapons you don't grip.

I don't see a "gripped only" restriction.

Yes. Some people cannot look past the fluff at all.

Blows their damn minds.

It's less the grip change and more the conversion of energy damage to physical that bothers me. How does that conversion even work? I mean, does a piercing channeled ray still heal?

While some things are RAW that doesn't mean much if you aren't in PFS.


Instead of the energy washing over someone gradually and without too much damage, you now have learned of a way to convert it to a forceful smash (bludgeoning), or even have it thin as a needle and pierce right through them.

Positive and Negative energy are both dangerous.

Positive Energy Plane, Golarion Campaign Setting wrote:


It is a place of such overwhelming, fecund energy that all non-natives are generally incinerated within seconds of arrival unless appropriate precautions are taken.


Just think of it as a hyperspace mallet ... makes tons of sense that way.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
d20 wrote:
Weapon Versatility:When wielding a weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you can shift your grip as a swift action so that your weapon deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage instead of the damage type normally dealt by that weapon. You may switch back to the weapon's normal damage type or another damage type as a swift action.

The weapon needs to have a damage type to be changed by the feat. So, what is a damage type?

PRD wrote:

Type: Weapons are classified according to the type of damage they deal: B for bludgeoning, P for piercing, or S for slashing. Some monsters may be resistant or immune to attacks from certain types of weapons.

Some weapons deal damage of multiple types. If a weapon causes two types of damage, the type it deals is not half one type and half another; all damage caused is of both types. Therefore, a creature would have to be immune to both types of damage to ignore any of the damage caused by such a weapon.

A Channel Ray (or just about any other kind of Ray) has no damage type to alter, so, while you could, technically, take Weapon Versatility (Ray), it would only function for Rays that deal Slashing, Bludgeoning, or Piercing damage. There might be some 3pp rays that deal physical damage, but my search didn't come up with anything from Paizo materials. Energy damage isn't a damage type for weapons and, thus, would be unaffected by Weapon Versatility.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Damage type: Energy(Positive).


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Damage type: Energy(Positive).

Damage types are Slashing, Bludgeoning, or Piercing, as stated in the quoted rules. Energy is not listed there, thus, isn't a damage type.


Slashing, bludgeoning, and piercing are for physical weapons. Rays, obviously are not physical weapons, but they work that way for these feats. Specific over general.


Quintain wrote:
Slashing, bludgeoning, and piercing are for physical weapons. Rays, obviously are not physical weapons, but they work that way for these feats. Specific over general.

Specific over general has a logical limit. Rays count as weapons, but does that mean that they can suffer the broken condition like weapons can? No. Does that mean that they can be bought and sold in a shop like weapons can? No. Does that mean they can be made masterwork like weapons can? No. They may count as weapons for the purpose of feats which require you to select a weapon type, but they don't have damage types as weapons do so a feat which changes the damage type of your weapon would have no effect on a ray which has no damage type to change. It might have an energy type, but that isn't a damage type. Now, if your Ray already dealt piercing damage, either on its own or by virtue of some other rules element, then Weapon Versatility (Ray) would allow you to deal Bludgeoning or Slashing damage with said Ray. For the sake of cinematic, say you have a hypothetical Ray which launches a shard of ice as a Ray and deals half Piercing, half Cold damage. The This means that half the damage is dealt as physical damage of Piercing damage type and the other half is dealt as energy damage of Cold energy type. If you have Weapon Versatility (Ray), you might fire it aimed in such a way that it grazes the enemy and leaves a slash mark on their cheek. Or you might fire it sideways so that it smacks into the target bluntly rather than with the piercing tip. But a spell like Scorching Ray deals energy damage and has an energy type, not a damage type. Furthermore, it would be ridiculous that a Scorching Ray could be changed by Weapon Versatility such that it no longer deals Fire damage; it is a scorching ray comprised of magical fire but deals physical slashing damage instead of energetic fire damage? No.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

I am saying, how do you shift your grip on an unarmed strike?

The feat works with unarmed strikes, and many other weapons you don't grip.

I don't see a "gripped only" restriction.

Yes. Some people cannot look past the fluff at all.

Blows their damn minds.

How is it fluff when it tells you what to do as a swift action? That's a mechanic, not fluff.


Quote:


They may count as weapons for the purpose of feats which require you to select a weapon type, but they don't have damage types as weapons do so a feat which changes the damage type of your weapon would have no effect on a ray which has no damage type to change.

None of this is defined as a requirement of the feat itself. You are arguing for what you want the feat to say vs. what it actually says.


Lost In Limbo wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

I am saying, how do you shift your grip on an unarmed strike?

The feat works with unarmed strikes, and many other weapons you don't grip.

I don't see a "gripped only" restriction.

Yes. Some people cannot look past the fluff at all.

Blows their damn minds.

It's less the grip change and more the conversion of energy damage to physical that bothers me. How does that conversion even work? I mean, does a piercing channeled ray still heal?

While some things are RAW that doesn't mean much if you aren't in PFS.

It is the damage type that is converted, if you have positive energy and convert it to piercing, then the positive energy doesn't work anymore, therefore, no healing.

At least that is how I would rule it.


Quintain wrote:
Quote:


They may count as weapons for the purpose of feats which require you to select a weapon type, but they don't have damage types as weapons do so a feat which changes the damage type of your weapon would have no effect on a ray which has no damage type to change.

None of this is defined as a requirement of the feat itself. You are arguing for what you want the feat to say vs. what it actually says.

Incorrect. Here's the feat again since you missed it before:

d20 wrote:
Weapon Versatility: When wielding a weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you can shift your grip as a swift action so that your weapon deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage instead of the damage type normally dealt by that weapon. You may switch back to the weapon's normal damage type or another damage type as a swift action.

It does, indeed, specify that the resulting damage type is instead of the damage type normally dealt. Since there is no damage type normally dealt, there is nothing to be replaced. If an ability stated that, instead of dealing sneak attack damage, you may cause blindness, you wouldn't argue that you can cause blindness on an attack that wouldn't normally deal sneak attack damage, would you? I should hope not, since that would be unreasonable. Likewise, if the feat says you may deal deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage instead of the damage type normally dealt, you cannot deal your choice of bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing with a weapon that has no damage type. And, again, what is a damage type for a weapon? Bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing. Does a Ray deal one of these damage types? That's a case-by-case basis, but no Ray I've found, save for a third-party example from Psionics Unleashed, fits the bill.


Negative energy is a damage type. Just like fire, bludgeon, piercing, or slashing, cold, acid or electricity.

The ray normally does either positive or negative energy (depending on what you channel), since there are abilities that reduce negative or positive energy damage and we have spells that deal negative energy damage and so on these are in fact damage types.

So that part of your argument is crap.

As to the "it isn't a normal damage type" argument:

It doesn't say that the weapon has to deal a specific type in order to be changed to one of the other types, only that you have weapon focus in the weapon.

It would work with battle poi and any other weapon. Heck it doesn't even say melee only so you can go gangster with your pistol and deal slashing damage instead of b/p. Shift the grip on your bow and deal bludgeoning.

Without a prerequisite on the starting damage what the weapon normally does has no consequence on what the feat does.


Maybe that bard archtype one?

Even then you're shifting your grip on what? Your vocal cords? Silly.

You can't turn a ray of light into a different damage type because you can't grip a ray of light. Even if you could it doesn't do p/s/b


Abraham spalding wrote:

Negative energy is a damage type. Just like fire, bludgeon, piercing, or slashing, cold, acid or electricity.

The ray normally does either positive or negative energy (depending on what you channel), since there are abilities that reduce negative or positive energy damage and we have spells that deal negative energy damage and so on these are in fact damage types.

So that part of your argument is crap.

As to the "it isn't a normal damage type" argument:

It doesn't say that the weapon has to deal a specific type in order to be changed to one of the other types, only that you have weapon focus in the weapon.

It would work with battle poi and any other weapon. Heck it doesn't even say melee only so you can go gangster with your pistol and deal slashing damage instead of b/p. Shift the grip on your bow and deal bludgeoning.

Without a prerequisite on the starting damage what the weapon normally does has no consequence on what the feat does.

Incorrect. The feats clear in that it changes the damage of the weapon. Not just "damage " but specifically the damage of the weapon. Weapon damage is either b/s/p. Core rules are specific about this. The ray does none of these.


Quote:


Core rules are specific about this. The ray does none of these.

Rays are weapons. Feats applicable for weapons are applicable to rays.

Rays do energy type damage. These are valid types of damage. Your B/S/P list of damage types for weapons is obviously not all inclusive.

This feat changes energy type damage to B/S/P depending on the choice of the character. It's really that simple.


Cavall wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:

Negative energy is a damage type. Just like fire, bludgeon, piercing, or slashing, cold, acid or electricity.

The ray normally does either positive or negative energy (depending on what you channel), since there are abilities that reduce negative or positive energy damage and we have spells that deal negative energy damage and so on these are in fact damage types.

So that part of your argument is crap.

As to the "it isn't a normal damage type" argument:

It doesn't say that the weapon has to deal a specific type in order to be changed to one of the other types, only that you have weapon focus in the weapon.

It would work with battle poi and any other weapon. Heck it doesn't even say melee only so you can go gangster with your pistol and deal slashing damage instead of b/p. Shift the grip on your bow and deal bludgeoning.

Without a prerequisite on the starting damage what the weapon normally does has no consequence on what the feat does.

Incorrect. The feats clear in that it changes the damage of the weapon. Not just "damage " but specifically the damage of the weapon. Weapon damage is either b/s/p. Core rules are specific about this. The ray does none of these.

You should tell Paizo that. The Battle Poi(Adventurer's Armory) and the Flamethrower(Rasputin Must Die) deal fire damage. In the damage type column for each of them their damage is listed as "fire". The description for the damage type is what says the whole b/s/p thing, but fire is listed as a damage type in more than one book. Your argument doesn't really hold much water on that basis alone, because apparently Paizo doesn't consider B/P/S as some immutable constant but just the typical damage dealt by a weapon (but not in the case of many Rays). Either that, or the rules are contradictory, but in that case it's almost certain that the weapon damage definition is the thing that would get viewed as in error and errata'd to fix the whole issue.


Would you say then that you can grip a flame thrower so the flames do slashing damage?


Elemental damage as well as other forms of magic clearly cause damage that are not bludgeoning/piercing/slashing. Fire burns, cold freezes, etc. However it seems the opposition is that it's hard to do something like throwing a fireball and making it do piercing damage; it just doesn't seem realistic to some people (even being in a world of magic). Perhaps it may have been intended to not work with rays. I think an FAQ on this one would be good, because IMHO you should not be able to bludgeon people with positive energy. FAQ'd.


Cavall wrote:
Would you say then that you can grip a flame thrower so the flames do slashing damage?

It only makes slightly less sense than impaling someone on a bag of marbles.

The feat is stupid. It's stupid when you use it for edge cases where RAW is debatable, and it's stupid for all but the most banal "clearly RAW" uses. The only times when it isn't stupid are times when the weapon should have allowed extra damage types anyway, like bludgeoning with a longsword's flat or pommel and piercing with it's tip. Slashing with a ball mounted on a stick or bludgeoning with a piece of piano wire is wacky, so why not bludgeon someone with the pressure blast of a flamethrower*, or slash them open by using the flamethrower's jet to knock up debris into the target's face. We are already in nonsense land, so why not accept the absurdity and just run with it.

*since you can stab someone with a bag of sand by holding it differently, why not shift your grip to turn your weapon into a TF2 knockoff.


sneak attack.

evil cleric/rogues with channel negative energy get quite a boost. You don't suffer as much from multi-classing (unless I fundamentally misunderstand rays)

Grand Lodge

Cavall wrote:

Maybe that bard archtype one?

Even then you're shifting your grip on what? Your vocal cords? Silly.

You can't turn a ray of light into a different damage type because you can't grip a ray of light. Even if you could it doesn't do p/s/b

Oddly, until it was errataed, Weird Words did P, B, or S damage at the Bard's choice. Only after it was errataed, did it start being Sonic damage instead.

Cavall wrote:
Incorrect. The feats clear in that it changes the damage of the weapon. Not just "damage " but specifically the damage of the weapon. Weapon damage is either b/s/p. Core rules are specific about this. The ray does none of these.

So, as mentioned, can you change the type of damage the Battle Poi weapon does?

And there are definitely spells which do B or P or S damage, rather then, or in addition to, some sort of energy damage. Consider the Core spell Storm of Vengeance. That does deafening, acid, electricity, bludgeoning, and then obscures sight.


Again, the rules define what a damage type is; it's the quality of damage of a weapon either as slashing, bludgeoning, or piercing. That is, definitively, the damage type of a weapon. Energy is not listed there. Fire is not a damage type according to the definition of damage type; it is an energy type and, again, energy is not a damage type. The battle poi even explicitly states that it is not heavy enough to deal physical damage, but it deals fire damage instead. So the Battle Poi has no damage type. You could not use Weapon Versatility to wield a Battle Poi in such a way that it stops dealing energy(fire) damage and deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage instead. You cannot fire a Scorching Ray in such a way that it stops dealing energy(fire) damage and deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage instead. You cannot fire a positive energy Channel Ray in such a way that it stops dealing energy(positive) damage and deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage instead. You cannot, while using Flaming Crow Strike, make your Unarmed Strikes stop dealing energy(fire/negative) and deal bludgeoning, slashing, or piercing damage instead. But you could fire a Crystal Shard ray from Psionics Unleashed in such a way that it stops dealing piercing damage and deals bludgeoning or slashing damage instead. You could fire a gun in such a way that it stops dealing P/B and deals Slashing damage instead. You could fire a blunt arrow in such a way that it stops dealing bludgeoning damage and deals slashing or piercing damage instead. You could wield a bowling ball as an improvised weapon in such a way that it stops dealing bludgeoning damage and deals slashing or piercing damage instead. How you imagine it in action, or rationalize against it, is irrelevant; that's how it works and how it doesn't work. Period.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Okay.

What about the Battle Poi? It deals fire damage.

It is "gripped".

Can this feat not be used with the Battle Poi?

What about a Flame Blade? If I have Weapon Versatility(Scimitar), can I not use it with a Flame Blade, like other weapon feats?


Right so a damage type is only b/s/p...

should explain that to the developers:

Quote:
A fireball spell generates a searing explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.

Damage. What type? Fire.

Quote:
A creature with the burn special attack deals fire damage in addition to damage dealt on a successful hit in melee. Those affected by the burn ability must also succeed on a Reflex save or catch fire, taking the listed damage for an additional 1d4 rounds at the start of its turn (DC 10 + 1/2 burning creature’s racial HD + burning creature’s Con modifier). A burning creature can attempt a new save as a full-round action. Dropping and rolling on the ground grants a +4 bonus on this save. Creatures that hit a burning creature with natural weapons or unarmed attacks take fire damage as though hit by the burning creature and must make a Reflex save to avoid catching on fire.
Quote:
Disturbing a patch of winterbloom releases a burst of poisonous spores in the form of a bluish-white cloud of chilled vapor. Creatures within 10 feet of the winterbloom must make a DC 12 Fortitude save or sustain 2d4 points of cold damage and 1d4 points of Constitution damage as the inhaled spores form ice crystals on the victim’s lungs. The cloud lingers in the area for 1d3 rounds and each round a creature remains in the area it must make additional Fortitude saves or continue sustaining damage. A patch of winterbloom is easily dispersed with fire.
Quote:
Lightning strikes occur commonly during thunderstorms. It is exceedingly rare for a creature to be struck by lightning, though such an unlucky character would suffer between 4d8 and 10d8 points of electricity damage from the strike. Lightning strikes rarely produce forest fires in jungles due to their humid nature, but on the plains or in dry areas it's possible for a strike to ignite a wild fire.
Quote:
Corrosive rain acts as normal rain, but deals 1d6 points of acid damage per hour of exposure. Rains vary widely in what they affect, some dissolving nearly any material, others affecting only organic matter, metal, or plastics. When corrosive rain falls in a downpour, it deals 1d6 points of acid damage every 10 minutes instead.

next you'll be telling us you can't critical with a ray since it's not a weapon and can't deal damage. Since after all it doesn't deal "weapon damage"...

but wait...

Quote:
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.

THIS CAN NOT BE! A SPELL IS NOT A WEAPON! IT CANNOT DEAL DAMAGE IF IT ISN'T A WEAPON BECAUSE DAMAGE IS ONLY WEAPON BASED!

And we haven't even touched splash weapons... weapons that don't deal b/s/p damage for the most part...


Abraham spalding wrote:
Missing the point

I've provided all the rules information in my posts. At this point, I can only presume that you're being deliberately misleading on the matter. Therefore, your posts really amount to nothing since they are nothing but strawman fallacies.

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