So... Here goes my half-rant/half-request-for-advice hybrid monstrosity!
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I recently started playing 2 new campaigns. I decided to go with martial characters, because I didn't want to play another caster.
There! I made a character with a cool personality and background and gave it a solid build! Awesome! Let's Roll!
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Fast-forward a couple weeks...
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I'm bored already.
Not because of the GM, players, setting, or anything in the campaign. In fact, I really enjoy my gaming group and GMs. And the out of combat portions of the game are mostly okay.
But then, we roll Initiative...
It's just... I think I'm burned out. I want to play a martial character. I really do! But... I can't. I tried making my char more interesting in combat, but as soon as I start thinking of ways to do it, I realize I've already done (and am doing it) it with so many other characters that it completely kills my excitement.
And the worst part is... Since I'm having such a hard time enjoying combat, I end up getting bored of the character and that hurts my enjoyment of the non-combat portions of the game as well...
I HATE the idea of just spamming full attacks without any thought or decision making! I need action variety in my characters! But what else can I do?
- Combat Maneuvers? I already have 2 characters focused on them. Both can consistently use 2 or 3 of them. I do that every time for the very same reason. It's reaching the point where taking [Improved Whatever Maneuver] is just slightly more exciting than taking Weapon Focus... And that's the world's most boring feat.
- Martial debuffing abilities, such as Cornugon Smash and Spear Dancer? These are interesting, but they still don't add any decision making to the game. I'm still spamming full attacks, only now they do something else. That's an improvement, of course. Just not enough of one.
It's even worse when I remember that most of the few feats that actually give something interesting to do in combat require 13 levels and half a dozen feats to work.
I thought about using Path of War. I have players that use them in my campaigns and I can see they are well designed classes, but they are not an option this time for unrelated reasons .
It feels like I tried everything there is too try in combat without involving some sort of spell-casting. That can't be true... But it's how I feel. And it bums me out...
Nowadays, I actually have more fun creating homebrew stuff than actually playing the game. -.-'
Anyway, sorry for the rant... I just wanted to unload a little of my frustration. And also ask who else of you ever felt this way and what you did to fix it.
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tl;dr: I can't play a combat-focused class without being instantly bored during combat. How do/would you make martial classes more fun to play? How do you give them more real options and meaningful decision making, specifically during combat?
I get everything you've said. Martials basically do the same thing, round after round, battle after battle. As they gain levels, their numbers get bigger and sometimes their full attacks have side-effects, but they're basically doing the same thing forever.
But casters are a lot like that.
My last wizard's combats all went like this:
R1: Haste
R2: Mirror Image
R3 - R100: Occasionally burn low level attack spells against weak foes or high level attack spells against strong foes. Or do nothing (cantrips or crossbow) for most rounds so I can save resources.
Next fight, do that again.
Did I vary my spells? Not much. My spell book had lots of spells, but I prepared the same small subset every day, with a couple slots left open in case something weird needed an unforeseen spell choice. Occasionally I got to cast something out of combat but even that was the same old thing ("OK, where are we teleporting today?").
Probably a lot like the way your martial might occasionally get to use a non-combat skill like Intimidate or Climb.
Ultimately, whatever you play, you focus on a few favorite tricks and use them over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Oh yeah, and over.
I think the only solution is for the GM to create encounter challenges that force PCs out of their routine. That's not easy, but sometimes it can be done. When it happens, those are the memorable fights because we ALL get to do something new.
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inquisitor
Picking up Martial Flexibility can add a lot of decisions and potentially change how you fight each combat.
I get everything you've said. Martials basically do the same thing, round after round, battle after battle. As they gain levels, their numbers get bigger and sometimes their full attacks have side-effects, but they're basically doing the same thing forever.
But casters are a lot like that.
My last wizard's combats all went like this:
R1: Haste
R2: Mirror Image
R3 - R100: Occasionally burn low level attack spells against weak foes or high level attack spells against strong foes. Or do nothing (cantrips or crossbow) for most rounds so I can save resources.Next fight, do that again.
Did I vary my spells? Not much. My spell book had lots of spells, but I prepared the same small subset every day, with a couple slots left open in case something weird needed an unforeseen spell choice. Occasionally I got to cast something out of combat but even that was the same old thing ("OK, where are we teleporting today?").
Probably a lot like the way your martial might occasionally get to use a non-combat skill like Intimidate or Climb.
Ultimately, whatever you play, you focus on a few favorite tricks and use them over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Oh yeah, and over.
I think the only solution is for the GM to create encounter challenges that force PCs out of their routine. That's not easy, but sometimes it can be done. When it happens, those are the memorable fights because we ALL get to do something new.
Well... Yeah, this is a problem that affects casters too, though, it isn't nearly as serious, unless the player wants (many casters can completely change their spell lists everyday, the ones who can't still have more spells than they have class levels. And they all get their own feats + spells that are incredibly versatile).
But that's beside the point... Knowing that casters can be just as boring doesn't make me enjoy my martial characters.
>> PLEASE, LET'S REFRAIN FROM COMPARING CASTERS AND MARTIALS ITT! IT REALLY DOESN'T HELP ME! <<
I want to play a martial. I want to be the guy that thrives through will power, physical training and luck. But it's... difficult.
try playing a rogue? sure, you can still kill the whatever, but to do it really well, you have to move around, get into a flanking position, worry about flanking from somewhere else...
I find it's pretty exciting. Then again, I don't get to play very often.
I actually asked to play a Rogue in one of the most recent campaigns, but the GM didn't allow homebrew, and without homebrew, Rogues aren't very exciting to play.
That said, you actually did give me a good thing to write down on my notes: Playing characters with good mobility. If you can move around and still be effective (even if not as effective as you'd be if you had stood still), that opens a lot of in-combat options. :)
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inquisitor
Well, yeah... But Inquisitors are casters. And my favorite class. I've played more than a few of them. I'm trying to get combat versatility without getting into spells.
But thanks for the suggestions. Inquisitors are always a good suggestion! XD
Picking up Martial Flexibility can add a lot of decisions and potentially change how you fight each combat.
Yeah... I thought about playing a Brawler... But that class gets boring for the opposite reason. It can't do anything meaningful out of combat.
Is there any way to get that ability without being a Fighter or Brawler?
(BTW, I'm aware that I sound like a spoiled brat who wants to eat his cake and have it too, but I'm really frustrated right now. I need in-combat versatility, but I also need some sort of out-of-combat versatility. It doesn't have to be a caster's versatility, but at very least having a good number of skills and/or out-of-combat abilities would be nice).
Multiclass brawler and bard.
inquisitorWell, yeah... But Inquisitors are casters. And my favorite class. I've played more than a few of them. I'm trying to get combat versatility without getting into spells.
But thanks for the suggestions. Inquisitors are always a good suggestion! XD
lol
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Pick a copy of the Path of War.
What about a Medium? Yes they have spells, but only a little more than the Paladin. With a Medium there is the spirit surge to consider. Another option is to see if you can use Path of War.
Cavalier?
Actually, a Daring Champion Cavalier is pretty solid as far as martial versatility goes. Fairly mobile, lots of combat tricks, plays nice with allies via teamwork feats/banner buffs and has sufficient skill points/selection to contribute outside of combat. Definitely worth considering.
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I 2nd getting the weapon master's handbook when it comes out, and I would actually suggest Ninja with Forgotten Trick(combat trick, style, and weapon training are ninja tricks and thus you can pick up to any one combat feat, any one style feat, or weapon focus as a free action with 2 ki points spent[1 ki point with ring of ki mastery] to eventually switch kung-fu or the new weapon styles during combat, every combat.)
Maybe a switch-hitter ranger? Lots of skills, melee and ranged combat, and lots of fun and useful class features.
EDIT:
My all time favorite martial was a 3.5 scout. Tons of skills, switched between reach melee, non-reach melee, and ranged combat, fast speed, very mobile.
I like the ninja idea too. Some special abilities, mobility, sneak attacks, and lots of skills--and Charisma--for social encounters. And mobility and scouting skills too.
I also had fun with an elf barbarian that used an elven curve blade that used Pushing Assault a lot. He was going to get Shield of Swings, too, but ended up getting Precise Strike so he could synergize with the sorcerer/cavalier/eldritch knight. We were all elven "British" proper gentlemen.
Maybe a switch-hitter ranger? Lots of skills, melee and ranged combat, and lots of fun and useful class features.
I had fun with my switch hitter Dwarf Ranger in CORE. He used a dwarf waraxe in one hand and used the other for javelins.
Yeah, you're kind of SOL if PoW isn't available as far as "Martials who can do fun s$$&".
There are some off the wall builds but, as you said, they basically boil down to "Full attack, except these extra effects".
I think the Dirty Tactics Toolbox has some weird options though. I know the Feat that lets you CdG people who are Pinned is good, and makes Grappling a great primary "damage" option.
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try playing a rogue? sure, you can still kill the whatever, but to do it really well, you have to move around, get into a flanking position, worry about flanking from somewhere else...
I find it's pretty exciting. Then again, I don't get to play very often.
I actually asked to play a Rogue in one of the most recent campaigns, but the GM didn't allow homebrew, and without homebrew, Rogues aren't very exciting to play.
How about Unchained? Unchained rogues have a lot going for them over CRB rogues.
That said, you actually did give me a good thing to write down on my notes: Playing characters with good mobility. If you can move around and still be effective (even if not as effective as you'd be if you had stood still), that opens a lot of in-combat options. :)
You could work on optimizing vital strike. Warpriests do very well with it and Greater Weapon of the Chosen, but they are casters too.
Yeah, I really like dwarven waraxes for when you sometimes have a free hand (for two-weapon fighting, spell combat, shields, wands) and sometimes use two hands for whacking things.
I'll second (third?) dirty fighting. I have a dirty fighting-focused investigator, and between inflicting conditions, skills, gear and extracts, he plays like fantasy Batman.
Perhaps something along the lines of a reach battlefield controller? Poke opponents trying to move and stop them.
A style feat chain user could be interesting. A bunch of options there.
Mayhaps a bleed build, with dirty trick to back it up. Just ruin opponents day.
I'm really just grasping at straws here myself though, it's very rare for me to play mundane martials, because... they do bore me as well.
Unfortunately making a true Style Feat user is very hard now, with the nerf to master of Many Styles. That falls into the "requires 13 levels and half a dozen feats to work" category.
Unfortunately the only martials with real round to round decision making are found in 3PP. If you make the same thread in the third party board you will get a better response.
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Unfortunately making a true Style Feat user is very hard now, with the nerf to master of Many Styles. That falls into the "requires 13 levels and half a dozen feats to work" category.
There is a fighter archetype in Weapon Masters handbook that can also have multiple styles active. I haven't got my download yet, but hopefully it give more options. It certainly has more style feats added with weapon style feats.
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Wow seriously. Your options as a fighter or martial class are nearly endless.
Options of the top of my head
Charge, grapple, trip, flank, aid another, spring attack, whirlwind attack,
Fun ones
Repositioning, viscous stomp/greater trip. (Saw a multi class whip master do all of that and more once dominate the field by selecting what to reposition into a flank then trip them while we all slack of opportunity/ stomped them to death )
Wow seriously. Your options as a fighter or martial class are nearly endless.
Options of the top of my head
Charge,
"Attack"
grapple, trip,
Cpmbat maneuvers have been addressed.
flank,
...Is positioning, not an option for an action to use.
aid another,
"Helpmsomeone else attack"
spring attack, whirlwind attack,
Attack, or attack multiple people. Pay way too many Feats for the privilege.
Repositioning
Very nearly worthless, since you can't move someone into danger.
viscous stomp/greater trip. (Saw a multi class whip master do all of that and more once dominate the field by selecting what to reposition into a flank then trip them while we all slack of opportunity/ stomped them to death )
One wonders what he did against creatures that flew, didn't have legs, had too many legs, had too high of a CMD, or are otherwise immune or resistant to the most easily resisted combat maneuver in the game.
And, again, it's still basically just "Attack" on everything except the tripping.
It depends a bit on what you define as a martial. Inquisitors as 6 level casters you put on the caster side of the fence, OK. Is a medium a martial or a caster by your definition? They have plenty of flexibility, and if you focus on the champion spirit they're like a full BAB 4 level caster, but they do still have the option of becoming a 6 level caster at the start of each day.
The next step away from casterhood would be a ranger. A guide ranger can be effective at a couple of combat maneuvers without much investment in each simply because when they pull out the stops they have a high attack/CMB. They get enough skill points to do stuff and the odd extra ability to help them out of combat.
If even a ranger is too magic for your definition of martial ... the skirmisher and trapper archetypes do exist and stack with guide. Beyond that I'm out of suggestions.
I like the reach combo of Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, Power Attack, and Pushing Assault. You can push someone back 5 feet, take a 5 foot step back, and when they move 10 feet towards you, you get an AoO that stops them in place. Use a high-crit reach weapon, like the fauchard, and you can push opponents 10 feet back relatively reliably.
Or maybe combine spells and melee. I know you said you're kind of sick of spellcasters, but use your spells to enhance your combat, not blast or battlefield control.
Or try a spellcaster with a spell list you haven't used before.
Some more options, hopefully new to the thread:
Use weapons with special properties (reach, throw, trip etc.)
Do shield bashes and use armor spikes
Uncivilized tactics (maneuver to disable limbs)
Feint (roleplay it, if you like)
Small sized race (cause it's fun to surprise others with their martial capabilities)
Get some special senses (e.g. half-orc's scent)
Protect fellow party members with Bodyguard & In Harm's Way
Become a caster killer (Disruptive etc. from fighter or witch hunter etc. from barbarian)
Get level 1 spells via Psychic Disciple
Play barbarian 1 + fighter 1 + ranger 1 + slayer 1 + bloodrager 1 + swashbuckler 1 + whatever
Don't corner yourself with specializing too much (Weapon Focus, too many feats on specific maneuver etc.)
Sacrifice some effectivity in favor of diversity (that's actually true for most / all options above)
Maybe try a non-damaging class? Like a buffer or helper? Maybe take classes, feats, races, archetypes, etc., that improve your flanking and aid another abilities?
Maybe try a non-damaging class? Like a buffer or helper? Maybe take classes, feats, races, archetypes, etc., that improve your flanking and aid another abilities?
This. I combined Ki-Mystic with Sensei and Quinggong. I focused HEAVILY on WIS, took Bodyguard (with the Helpful trait) and Archon Style. This works especially well with a Barbarian in the party. Barbarians typically have low AC's and with the Helpful trait Bodyguard and Archon style you bump it +5, and deflect one attack to yourself. If the attack misses, yay wasted attack, if it hits you, the Barbarian gets an AoO.
Some other neat tricks, is giving everyone in the party Barkskin, allowing party members to re-roll attacks or saves. You're not going to do much damage, but your party will LOVE having you around, and it's a lot of fun seeing where you can help out the most.
Maybe try a non-damaging class? Like a buffer or helper? Maybe take classes, feats, races, archetypes, etc., that improve your flanking and aid another abilities?This. I combined Ki-Mystic with Sensei and Quinggong. I focused HEAVILY on WIS, took Bodyguard (with the Helpful trait) and Archon Style. This works especially well with a Barbarian in the party. Barbarians typically have low AC's and with the Helpful trait Bodyguard and Archon style you bump it +5, and deflect one attack to yourself. If the attack misses, yay wasted attack, if it hits you, the Barbarian gets an AoO.
Some other neat tricks, is giving everyone in the party Barkskin, allowing party members to re-roll attacks or saves. You're not going to do much damage, but your party will LOVE having you around, and it's a lot of fun seeing where you can help out the most.
This begs the question of "Why not play a caster?" however, since you're fulfilling much the same role as a Bard does.
It is a cool option I've wanted to try for a while though.
If you are finding melee combat boring and unexciting, then how about doing it differently. Get your character into trouble where you will have to be creative to survive. Rush ahead of the group, wade through the mooks soaking up AoO to get right to the BBEG and face him/her in one on one combat. Develop your characters personality to be risky and dangerous, and then play it up.
Fear of my character dying always keeps me interested.
I'm no expert on being a martial, but I've found that the fun of play for me is not having multiple types of things to do during combat, but rather the roleplay that happens during and between combat. My barbarian almost always uses the magic longsword he found, unless he is using Knockback. He does rush ahead like a crazed animal, and thus can get himself into scrapes. My bloodrager either full attacks with natural weapons, or pulls out her lucerne hammer.
I do think it's most interesting to play a class with the most skill points--that seems to be the sweet spot. Inquisitor, Ninja, Wizard, Ranger, etc. They have good roles (and rolls) in and out of combat. At least, that's how I feel about it this week. :D
This begs the question of "Why not play a caster?" however, since you're fulfilling much the same role as a Bard does.
It is a cool option I've wanted to try for a while though.
Because I have a 40 AC at level 11 ;) Seriously though it is very similar to what a Bard would do, but Ki "feels" different to spells to me.
I'm also not one to re-fluff and use it as is, and I really like the fluff with this combination. Add in Vow of Peace and/or Vow of Chains, and I just really enjoy it.
Hey, everyone... I just want to thank you all for your replies. Some of your advice is actually being applied in some of my other characters (like focusing on Dirty Trick or combining Cornugon Smash and Hurtful).
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Some of the advice does seem to be tailored to smash any hope I have... If "charge, flanking and aid another" is what is considered "combat versatility" and "meaningful decision making", I really don't shouldn't have any hope.
Still, I'm grateful for all the advice. I think I'll just not play non-homebrew martial classes for a while...
I might try a Divine Hunter Ranger of Desna, though... They are pretty cool.
Now... I don't mind not being optimized, but I also don't want to take basically useless choices just for the sake of variety. If does little more than fill space in my character sheet, it's not a real choice. It's a trap. That's why I won't take things like "Improved Reposition".
On a different note, roleplaying/describing your attacks is fun an all, but it doesn't help me much. In the end, you're not making any decision or putting any thought in your action. You're just flowering up the full-attack spam.
Gunslinger?
Somehow, I don't think Gunslingers are a good choice for someone who is looking for versatility...
But thanks for taking the time to reply.
Hybrid characters with split abilities or some kind of combat/casting SAD mechanic like Guided Hand aren't necessarily all that tough to make effective, and typically have a ton of versatility.
Even just something like a Fire Domain Theologian battle-Cleric that goes switch-hitter with a melee weapon and "thrown weapon" Produce Flame attacks (Rapid Shot, Divine Favor, metamagic?) can be pretty tactically unique.
Hey, everyone... I just want to thank you all for your replies. Some of your advice is actually being applied in some of my other characters (like focusing on Dirty Trick or combining Cornugon Smash and Hurtful).
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Some of the advice does seem to be tailored to smash any hope I have... If "charge, flanking and aid another" is what is considered "combat versatility" and "meaningful decision making", I really don't shouldn't have any hope.
Still, I'm grateful for all the advice. I think I'll just not play non-homebrew martial classes for a while...
I might try a Divine Hunter Ranger of Desna, though... They are pretty cool.
Now... I don't mind not being optimized, but I also don't want to take basically useless choices just for the sake of variety. If does little more than fill space in my character sheet, it's not a real choice. It's a trap. That's why I won't take things like "Improved Reposition".
On a different note, roleplaying/describing your attacks is fun an all, but it doesn't help me much. In the end, you're not making any decision or putting any thought in your action. You're just flowering up the full-attack spam.
If you're considering not playing non-homebrew martial classes, does that mean that homebrew martial classes are an option?As far as blessings vs. domains go, remember that clerics don't get other class features whereas warpriests do. It makes sense that domains are stronger than blessings if you think about it that way. Also, an UnMonk with combat stamina has all kinds of ways to do something meaningful in combat besides "I sit there and full attack it until it dies." If you pick your ki powers right there is tons of potential for versatility without sacrificing raw power.