But I really want to be a Dwarf.


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Grand Lodge

For as long as I've played Fantasy table top games of anything I've loved the Dwarves. The only metal mini I own is a Dwarf fighter I painted in a panel at my very first convention. I've had dozens of dwarven characters of various types in everything from pen and paper to video games.

Now to the current problem at hand I currently have four active PFS characters. None of them are dwarves. The Cleric that was my first is because when I sat down at my first local PFS game they needed a divine caster. Sorcerer is the same lines, just a need for arcane was around. The Kitsune Alchemist was all for me, I wanted to make it while the Kitsune were available. The fourth, a barbarian, was me wanting to be dumb muscle.

So I get my hands on Ultimate Combat and finally I'm like "YES! Dwarf Gunslinger!". Then sadness; I see all over the boards and in the community about 'optimization'. That it's ever so important to build the mathematically perfect character because only you can prevent TPK. Then at the recent local convention I score a boon for an Aasimar. Surely that would make a better gunslinger.

But I really want to be a dwarf! I don't want to to make a character though that through a roll of the dice would wreck a party because he wasn't the best he could be. I feel like if I don't use the Aasimar boon that I'm wasting it.

So how important are these things to you community? What are the actual chances I'm just going to wreck a bunch of peoples good time by being the surly dwarf gunslinger I know I am in my heart?

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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Gunslingers are more than optimized enough that not having the extra dex isn't that big of a deal. You'll be fine. The party will probably thank you and your effective +3 to your will save makes it a little harder to charm you into gunning them all down.

PFS scenarios have the difficulty set so that "Guy with two handed sword and high strength" is a reasonable level of optimization most of the time. If you can hit that benchmark you'll be fine (and gunslingers can't miss)

Scarab Sages 5/5

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Be a dwarf. No problem.

(anyone that has a problem with that can go brake rocks!)

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Captain, Washington D.C. aka Grolick

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Seriously, do not get wrapped up in the boards talking about how you have to be super-optimized. NONE of my PC's are optimized at all. I build what I want to play and have fun with it. I have only once been in a TPK, and honestly, we kind of deserved it because we were stupid.


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Unless you're playing a Charisma-based caster, dwarves are pretty good. They have excellent saving throws (especially with the Steel Soul feat) and survivability. This is usually enough to make up for the +1 to hit or whatever you'd get with another class.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

Remember that you don't have to use the aasimar boon immediately - you could even save it for trades in the Boon Trading Thread. You can just sit on it a while and play your dwarf. ^_^

I don't think your gunslinger will ruin things unless you try to do so. Just play a dwarf with a gun and don't try any Gun Juggling shenanigans, and you should be fine.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

Your choice of character race will not wreck a bunch of peoples good time unless you play as a total asshat or are a first class jerk.

Character personalities aside, the choice of character very rarely contributes to a 'NOT a good time'. Not a good time usually results from more than one point of failure in a game session. Ego issues around the table, bad decisions agreed to by the party and having the random number god take a dislike to the party are the typical precursors to a 'bad time' or TPK. Not one person's choice of character race.

My advice - play the character you want and have fun and don't sweat the rest.

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵

I've played an Aasimar Gunslinger to 12th. It was my 3rd character. It was too effective. Literally during the climactic battle of her retirement scenario she solo'd the BBEG with one full round attack.

Playing her made me feel dirty. And cheap. Like a used up... Aasimar Gunslinger.

Very coincidentally I told my roommate about her exploits, and he wanted to do her exact same build, but make his character a Dwarf. With the stat swaps we figured his character would have more HP, +2 Grit, and -2 Attack after all was said and done.

And since touch ACs usually drop as you fight stronger and stronger foes, the -2 in the long run wasn't a problem for him. It certainly wouldn't have hurt my character.

So go ahead and build your Dwarf Gunslinger. Just be sure you have fun doing it =)

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Dwarven gunslingers can be very effective. I regularly play alongside a dwarven gunslinger/warpriest who is absolutely no slouch in the damage or utility departments.


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Play the character you want. It's a role-playing game, and the personality you put into a character is as much a part of the experience as the statistics he has. And when cool things do happen, you'll be all the more satisfied because it's the character you want to play, not an optimized, crowd-sourced, might-have-been version.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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(this is the most agreement you will see on the boards EVER. Take it as a sign :) )

Silver Crusade

The idea that a dwarf gunslinger is inadequately effective is laughable.


May be there is more pressure at your local level, but I find that you just need to be competent, not necessarily powerful. I was going to go on, but I lost my train of thought.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
(this is the most agreement you will see on the boards EVER. Take it as a sign :) )

Says you!

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Allerum I'm sure you are going to get lots of advice about how to squeeze the most out of your character build.

Have fun. Play your dwarf. Don't worry.

I played lots of PFS. I can count the number of psf scenarios I have not played on one hand, well maybe two now because I have not been playing much over the last few months.

I have done my fair share of GMing. I think I have 33 characters ranging from level 16 all the way down to level 1.

My 16 level character is a Mystic Theruge ( Cleric of Pharasma 3 /Necromancer 3/ Mystic Theurge 9). I started him in 09 when the only book out was the Core Rulebook. My character has Extra Channel. He has Selective Channel. He also has the Turn Undead feat, and the Rebuke Undead class feature from his necromancer class.
My character's channel energy is cut off at 2d6 and his Necromancer rebuke undead is also cut off at 3 hd, I have not retrained him.

Oh he has a 10 con. He has died twice in his carrier. I have had fun playing this character and I think that he has been able to be helpful to his team mates at the table.

I guess at the end of the day all I am saying is have fun. Enjoy yourself! I am not saying don't optimize at all, of course with a ranged character you'll want point blank shot and precise shot....but have fun! Don't worry too much.

Grand Lodge

Thank you all! I feel better about rolling one up now.

To expand on a couple things mentioned above; I do just plan to run a dwarf with a gun. I don't ever play an all out a#$&$@~, I have more spaghetti western in mind for this guy. Normally I do prefer to play something that seems fun.

The concern is that recently I did have a scenario go really, really badly. Everyone but two at a six person table died. We ended up just conceding loss rather than try to trudge through two-manning it.

Thank you all again, and I shall get to making my dwarf forthwith!


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Thing to remember about the boards: there's like, maybe twenty of us on here.
Seriously.
I see you, Big Norse Wolf, and Kalindlara in nearly every thread. Black Blood Troll and RavingDork too. A hand full of other people that, depending on which subboard you go to, you see time and time again.
Point being, you'll see the same opinions over and over because you see the same people over and over. The VAST majority of Pathfinder players, including PFS players, will NEVER set foot on these forums.

So play what you want, how you want to.

Does my buddy have a 5 Con elf in PFS who somehow survived an encounter with an alchemist? yes.
Was our PFS party a mismatch of characters who would probably been better rolled up as something else? Yes.
Do I have a dumped Int illiterate (by rules, no less!) barbarian who's only skill ranks are in Knowledges just so I can watch PFS DMs double-take as I roll Knowledge(Nobility) after I prove unable to read a simple player handout? Heck yes!

Just build semi-decently, play smart, and have a good time. The usual pain comes not from a party member who doesn't have the perfect killing beast, but from the party member who is literally useless or the party member who royally screws up (HERNANDO HAD IN HARMS WAY AND MISSILE SHIELD! ALL YOU HAD TO DO WAS STAY BY THE HERNANDO RUIZ, TALDAN KNIGHT OF THE SHIELD AND YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN FINE BUT YOU MOVED AWAY FOR NO GOOD REASON! THAT ARCHER WAS GONNA PEG YOU NO MATTER WHERE YOU WENT, BRIAN!)

Shadow Lodge

I've played multiple elf clerics. Just because you don't perfectly align stat bonuses doesn't mean you aren't kicking ass.

4/5

I agree, be a dwarf. You don't have a dex bonus, *but* your wisdom bonus gets you more grit, and your Con bonus means you're less of a glass cannon. Play the gun tank AT and rock it.

3/5

the dwarf FCB lowers misfire chance,

so sure you have a bit less dex, but you also have less kablooey


I like the idea of a dwarf gunslinger.

Thorin the Kid
Doc Sneezy
Calamity Tattoo.

sorry, I should take it more seriously.

Scarab Sages

I played though a level of Emerald Spire with a Dwarf Gunslinger. He was great to have along.

Don't let the lack of a racial bonus stop you form playing what you want to play. You can easily afford a 16 starting DEX, and that's all you need. You will be considerably more hardy in exchange.


Well, since since you get a Wis bonus, but not a Dex bonus you could make deed a central part of your build and rp. Make a character who is better at fancy shots then regular ones.

5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka Yiroep

So, for fun, I decided to stick to one race for all my CORE campaign characters, so I chose gnome. I have built wizards and clerics so far with it, and just built all of a sorcerer, fighter/wizard/arcane archer, and ranger (Yes, 16 strength (18 - 2)) concepts, all using gnomes. There is not that big of a difference, and the small change in save DC or to-hit doesn't really matter all that much. I actually find my characters are more rounded and survivable when I *don't* choose the "optimized" race.

Nice perk with gnomes...all my characters easily have good Con! A benefit that Dwarves share! :)


Also, a dwarf gunslinger based on the Old Shatterhand character sounds awesome. Tell me Shatterhand isn't a great name for a dwarf!

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:


I see you, Big Norse Wolf, and Kalindlara in nearly every thread. Black Blood Troll and RavingDork too.

PBTHTHTHTHS :)

Even then though, how often do you see us with the SAME opinion?

The Exchange 5/5

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when I first started looking at playing a gunslinger my first choice was going to be dwarf...

I just got the following image in my head for starting each game...

"A dwarven adventurer walks into town, up the dusty street, an exotic saddle over his sholder and pistol at his belt. He glances over to where the other adventurers are gathered... "Well son, wha'da'ya do when they shot chur mount outta underneith ya? Ifin it's a Dire Bat, yah learn the true value of this here 'Ring of Feather Fall'. Yep, that or try to learn to fly REAL FAST."

(then the best part) - Going from adventure to adventure - never admitting that he's afraid of heights and has never owned a Dire Bat, much less flown on one.

The Exchange 5/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:


I see you, Big Norse Wolf, and Kalindlara in nearly every thread. Black Blood Troll and RavingDork too.

PBTHTHTHTHS :)

Even then though, how often do you see us with the SAME opinion?

heck, whenever I agree with them I rush off to be scanned for enchantment magic...


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just play the character
this is not a problem

Scarab Sages 5/5 Venture-Captain, Netherlands aka Woran

Wait? Everyone is agreeing with eachother? What parralel world did I end up in?

Grand Lodge 4/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Agent, Indiana—Decatur aka Kadasbrass Loreweaver

Play what you want to play because optimized characters make PFS boring. PFS is not designed for optimized characters nor are they even required or recommended.

The goal is to have fun, sometimes that means having a challenge. But most of all it means playing what you like.

I haven't made a dwarf yet but me and some of my players have a secret plan to make a dwarf rock band with Bard, Skald, and a Spell Warrior (Skald archtype) cause it would be fun and unexpected.

Sovereign Court 4/5

As a charisma-based caster, and a gunslinger, and a dwarf....

I have to agree with most everyone else.

We are awesome at all things!

Except possibly frolicking... that's elf territory...

But the jury's still out.

Sovereign Court

Matthew Downie wrote:
Unless you're playing a Charisma-based caster, dwarves are pretty good. They have excellent saving throws (especially with the Steel Soul feat) and survivability. This is usually enough to make up for the +1 to hit or whatever you'd get with another class.

I beg to differ, unless by 'caster' you mean 'blaster.' Casters aren't all about blasting, even though my favorite offense spell is create pit the save DC means little with improved bullrush & the push evolution.

I wanted to make a tengu wizard, but worried about the Int. Then I realized I didn't have negative to Int & have enjoyed her ever since.

I wanted to make a melee grippli but worried about the Str. minus & small weapon damage. Then I made a magus, where the spell trumps the weapon. Then PBP game day ran a side contest to create a GI Joe so I made a fun looking HALO jumper. I haven't played either yet, & I only have one grippli boon but both will be fun. Fun is the point. :)

I am glad the community is in agreement: play what you want to play.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Just like has been said before, play what you want to play and enjoy it. I'm known as one of those people in my area that builds the "strange" characters. My favorite is a Kitsune Fighter who is Dex based and carries more wands than weapons. Sometimes the Kitsune is a better caster than some of the casters in the party. (Since he was the unarmed fighter archetype and was 8th level when the errata for the archetype happened, he's been rebuilt into an unchained monk. Same base concept, but slightly better in battle.) It's fun to go to a convention and tell your party that you are a fighter in class only, yet still contribute in meaningful ways.

Scarab Sages 5/5

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hay, I'm a Cleric of Nivi Rombadazzel specializing in Channels - so that's sort of a CHA based caster right?

no wait, I'm a Gnome so never mind.

Buba is a Dwarven (though he claims to be a Gnome) Cleric. Green hair (dyed), disguised (Skill +15?, -12 for size and race difference) as a Gnome.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

I kind of want to see a dwarven gun tank. But I am not sure how you are supposed to use a tower shield and a firearm together.

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

Whilst trying to make a "Harsk that doesn't suck" I ended up with a dwarven Zen Archer. It works like a charm. I can afford to waste feats on frivolities.

I still want to make a character based on the Dorn-Dergar. Maybe I'll make it to magus one day..

Scarab Sages

I've said it before, now I'll say it again: "Optimization" is tunnel-visioned crap. There's nothing the self-proclaimed "Church of Gaming" can teach you that a halfway-competent player can't figure out for themselves. Everything's situational, every choice has upsides and downsides, and anything can be made to work.


The best part of this discussion: All of the great character names. My favorite one (which I am keeping close to my chest for now) is a name that I came up with when I was composing my post earlier.

I also really like the name Dorn Shatterhand from Gleaming Terrier's and Ascalaphus's posts, but I wouldn't use it (I don't take other peoples' character names).

Still...good inspiration. And I hope someone makes a dwarf gunslinger named Dorn Shatterhand. :)

Scarab Sages

The Lonely Ranger wrote:

Still...good inspiration. And I hope someone makes a dwarf gunslinger named Dorn Shatterhand. :)

I don't know, that sounds like an awfully...inauspicious name for a Gunslinger. Right up there with Rogue named "Leo Doorslammer," an Alchemist named "Bunsen Butterfingers," a Brawler named "Glass Joe," or a Paladin named "Slicker Silvertongue."

The Exchange 5/5

FLite wrote:
I kind of want to see a dwarven gun tank. But I am not sure how you are supposed to use a tower shield and a firearm together.

here is a Link to a thread on that subject... sort of...


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The Lonely Ranger wrote:


I also really like the name Dorn Shatterhand from Gleaming Terrier's and Ascalaphus's posts, but I wouldn't use it (I don't take other peoples' character names).

If it helps, I officially give you all rights, eternal and in perpetuity, to the name Shatterhand, for usage in Pathfinder Society. ;)

The Exchange 5/5

FLite wrote:
I kind of want to see a dwarven gun tank. But I am not sure how you are supposed to use a tower shield and a firearm together.

take a couple levels of Alchemist (maybe Grenadier?) to get the Extra Arm discovery? A Dwarf with a third arm (out of his beard?) - ok, that's just a bit to weird.

Shadow Lodge

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Two-Gun Sam wrote:
FLite wrote:
I kind of want to see a dwarven gun tank. But I am not sure how you are supposed to use a tower shield and a firearm together.
take a couple levels of Alchemist (maybe Grenadier?) to get the Extra Arm discovery? A Dwarf with a third arm (out of his beard?) - ok, that's just a bit to weird.

I was thinking a single level of Witch and take the Prehensile Beard hex.


I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
The Lonely Ranger wrote:

Still...good inspiration. And I hope someone makes a dwarf gunslinger named Dorn Shatterhand. :)

I don't know, that sounds like an awfully...inauspicious name for a Gunslinger.

Nah, it's about what he does to opponents, not to himself. A character with the surname "Bonebreaker" doesn't suffer from Lobstein syndrome. Although, I'm going to use that as the in-game rationale for my next low-CON character, now that I think about it.

The Exchange 5/5

InVinoVeritas wrote:
Two-Gun Sam wrote:
FLite wrote:
I kind of want to see a dwarven gun tank. But I am not sure how you are supposed to use a tower shield and a firearm together.
take a couple levels of Alchemist (maybe Grenadier?) to get the Extra Arm discovery? A Dwarf with a third arm (out of his beard?) - ok, that's just a bit to weird.
I was thinking a single level of Witch and take the Prehensile Beard hex.

dwarf witch or dwarf alchemist?

Alchemist sounds better to me. Dwarf witch just sounds... weird. I'd keep expecting to see some lady in a glass case with a pale complexion...

Dark Archive 5/5 ⦵⦵

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Ascalaphus wrote:
Maybe I'll make it to magus one day..

I played a Dwarf Magus to 13th level using a Dwarven Waraxe. I'd show up to Cons wearing a fake beard and plastic Viking Helmet. I never let on that he was a Caster. I placed his mini up front and said I'd be taking the hits. When my turn in combat came around I'd start off by Sundering.

Then during 2nd round, declare Spell Combat, cast Intensified Shocking Grasp. Watch as everyone's jaw hits the floor.

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

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Brevick Axeflail wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
Maybe I'll make it to magus one day..

I played a Dwarf Magus to 13th level using a Dwarven Waraxe. I'd show up to Cons wearing a fake beard and plastic Viking Helmet. I never let on that he was a Caster. I placed his mini up front and said I'd be taking the hits. When my turn in combat came around I'd start off by Sundering.

Then during 2nd round, declare Spell Combat, cast Intensified Shocking Grasp. Watch as everyone's jaw hits the floor.

Hmm, I like.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Allerum wrote:

For as long as I've played Fantasy table top games of anything I've loved the Dwarves. The only metal mini I own is a Dwarf fighter I painted in a panel at my very first convention. I've had dozens of dwarven characters of various types in everything from pen and paper to video games.

Now to the current problem at hand I currently have four active PFS characters. None of them are dwarves. The Cleric that was my first is because when I sat down at my first local PFS game they needed a divine caster. Sorcerer is the same lines, just a need for arcane was around. The Kitsune Alchemist was all for me, I wanted to make it while the Kitsune were available. The fourth, a barbarian, was me wanting to be dumb muscle.

So I get my hands on Ultimate Combat and finally I'm like "YES! Dwarf Gunslinger!". Then sadness; I see all over the boards and in the community about 'optimization'. That it's ever so important to build the mathematically perfect character because only you can prevent TPK. Then at the recent local convention I score a boon for an Aasimar. Surely that would make a better gunslinger.

But I really want to be a dwarf! I don't want to to make a character though that through a roll of the dice would wreck a party because he wasn't the best he could be. I feel like if I don't use the Aasimar boon that I'm wasting it.

So how important are these things to you community? What are the actual chances I'm just going to wreck a bunch of peoples good time by being the surly dwarf gunslinger I know I am in my heart?

Go for it. My Gunslinger started with a 16 Dex. You could probably get away with one starting at a 12 or a 14 Dex, because you will hit most of the time going against Touch AC, and the extra damage you eventually get with Dex isn't really super important if you are always hitting.

Just being a gunslinger is optimized enough. Play what you want.

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