Aside from the few exceptions, like oracle and Druid and what not, why can't I be an inquisitor or cleric without a deity? It calls out that you can and your deity really only amounts to role play, which to my experience isn't exactly society's strong suit, so why the ruling that you have to have a deity despite the books saying otherwise? I don't see what it accomplishes or what they are trying to prevent.
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
|
| 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
You're right, the base game doesn't require deities, however the world of Golarion does. There's an in world reason people don't go around saying they're clerics of Aroden and actually having divine powers to back them up. In Golarion the gods grant divine powers. That's why PFS requires deities.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't see it as much different from the decades of home games I've played in (or GMed).
If a GM creates their own Pantheon, telling them you'd prefer to play an atheist shows you have little interest in their campaign setting.
Unless you're Paizo's Iconic Wizard, Ezren, or want the roleplay aspect of being an Atheist in such a setting, or have interest in a myriad of other things about said setting. :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Honestly it's more that I think generally speaking all their deities are terribl, save maybe some of the much less prominent ones but only because they are so vague I can basically fill in the gaps as I please.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
"Filling in the gaps" is totally acceptable, within reason.
Take Rowdrosh, The Divine Herdsman, for example. He's pretty much an entry in a table. Only mechanics, nothing detailed.
So my Paladin kind of "makes it up" as I go.
It's incredibly liberating.
Tiefling inquisitor of lythertida has been the only one I've done and am liking.
Problem is inquisitor is the only divine caster I dig honestly. :P
|
|
Another reason for it is that, as the CRB says, it requires GM adjudication to do non-Deity or philosophy-based divine casters. PFS limits that power, when they can, to the Campaign Coordinator.
Which is also why some other things are right out, or severely limited (see the ring of oratory or whatever it is named).
|
|
You're right, the base game doesn't require deities, however the world of Golarion does. There's an in world reason people don't go around saying they're clerics of Aroden and actually having divine powers to back them up. In Golarion the gods grant divine powers. That's why PFS requires deities.
But it's perfectly valid for Oracles and Druids, much less Bards and Sorcerers to do so. . .
|
You're right, the base game doesn't require deities, however the world of Golarion does. There's an in world reason people don't go around saying they're clerics of Aroden and actually having divine powers to back them up. In Golarion the gods grant divine powers. That's why PFS requires deities.But it's perfectly valid for Oracles and Druids, much less Bards and Sorcerers to do so. . .
Because Oracles, by the very definition of what the class is, doesn't get their power from a single divine source of worship.
That's the difference.
Do you gain your class abilities based on worshiping something specific? If yes, in PFS and in Golarion, you need to worship a deity. Do you get your class abilities based on something else? Yes, then you don't need to pick a specific deity to worship. Your powers come from another source.
|
|
You're right, the base game doesn't require deities, however the world of Golarion does. There's an in world reason people don't go around saying they're clerics of Aroden and actually having divine powers to back them up. In Golarion the gods grant divine powers. That's why PFS requires deities.But it's perfectly valid for Oracles and Druids, much less Bards and Sorcerers to do so. . .Because Oracles, by the very definition of what the class is, doesn't get their power from a single divine source of worship.
That's the difference.
What does that have to do with Aroden?
:P
|
|
You're right, the base game doesn't require deities, however the world of Golarion does. There's an in world reason people don't go around saying they're clerics of Aroden and actually having divine powers to back them up. In Golarion the gods grant divine powers. That's why PFS requires deities.But it's perfectly valid for Oracles and Druids, much less Bards and Sorcerers to do so. . .Because Oracles, by the very definition of what the class is, doesn't get their power from a single divine source of worship.
That's the difference.
What does that have to do with Aroden?
:P
It isn't ok to say you Worship Aroden in PFS. Its ok to say you Venerate him, however.
|
I think Beckett's point was that theoretically an oracle could run around claming to be a cleric of Aroden. If someone doubts it it could just whip out some devine spells and say "See? Aroden granted me my spells!"
Doesn't really change the basic rule, however. Clerics, inquisitors, paladins etc. have to have a deity in Golarion. And since PFS takes place on Golarion (or at least all PCs live there)...
|
You're right, the base game doesn't require deities, however the world of Golarion does. There's an in world reason people don't go around saying they're clerics of Aroden and actually having divine powers to back them up. In Golarion the gods grant divine powers. That's why PFS requires deities.
Often the domains are kinda important for the character concept.
There's no real sky/ thunder god. Gozreh gives you Weather and Air, but he's a Sea God.There's no god of War & Magic. Or War & Knowledge. Which are typically pretty common combined domains if you look at earths patheons. War & knowledge go hand in hand, ask Sun Tzu. Or Odin. Or Athena.
There's no "Earth goddess" at all.
There's no deity with the Earth domain that also includes strength.
And even if you look beyond the pure domains, some of the Gods have really strange portfolios.
Like a goddess of prostitutes, virgins and friendship. Of course is the emphasis on the sexual part (if you look at the deific obedience).
Honestly. The amount of WTF/min rises when looking at the Gods of Golarion.
I am also not a big fan on how the information is split up (with regards to source books).
|
There's no deity with the Earth domain that also includes strength.
You missed Yamatsumi.
He's a bit obscure, but a Season 6 scenario took place in one of his temples, so he's not absent from PFS.
|
|
"I'm a cleric of Prostitution and I get the Healing and Protection domains from it, my portfolio isn't anything other than being a pimp"~Things that were pitched in home games I was in.
To put it simple, in PFS you'd see a TON of this. Yes, many players are more mature than that. However, many aren't. You'd have clerics and laypersons running around claiming divine influence from all sorts of sources and you'd be expecting to ask DMs to figure out how these interact with the scenario on the fly.
I can think of one set of scenarios that takes place in Rahadoum, where all worship of deities is banned. How does a cleric of a concept work there?
Another scenario goes to Geb, and enemies have tactics regarding seeing holy symbols of Good deities. If the pimp-cleric is NG, does that mean his prostitution powers are a NG god?
There's no real sky/ thunder god. Gozreh gives you Weather and Air, but he's a Sea God.
There's no god of War & Magic. Or War & Knowledge. Which are typically pretty common combined domains if you look at earths patheons. War & knowledge go hand in hand, ask Sun Tzu. Or Odin. Or Athena.
There's no "Earth goddess" at all.
There's no deity with the Earth domain that also includes strength.
Hei Feng, Duke of Thunder. Also, regarding Gozreh. SHE is a Sea God, but HE is the god of tempests. Dual nature and all that.
Urgathoa has War and Magic. Also, one could argue that Athena's brand of Knowledge is the Tactics subdomain, while Odin is not really much of a War god (compared to Tyre).Ashukharma, The Divine Divide. Earth and Strength. (yes this is in Distant Shores. I did come up with one though).
Point being, there are TONS of gods to work with.
|
|
Oh thanks :)
I even own that book.
Did I mention that the way the information on Gods is split up is kinda a pain in the south?
Oh, I TOTALLY agree with you there.
As our resident cleric player, I'm hoping through 7+ books any given day.Inner Sea Gods, Dragon Empires Gazetteer, the Ancient Osirion Gods blogpost (as I do not own Mummy's Mask book 2), the Chronicles of Righteousness, Books of Damnation, and more....
BTW, just checked the additional resources page: The Distant Shores gods are good to go!
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
There's no ...
real sky/ thunder god.
HathorPazazu
Hshurha (Elemental lord of air...)
Rull (Orc god of thunder, not PFS legal)
Hei Feng (Tien, Sea, storms, thunder, wind)
god of War & Magic.
Urgathoa
Shiggarreb (not pfs legal?)
War & Knowledge.
Sadly that does seem to be missing.
"Earth goddess" at all.
The Green Mother (Eldest)
deity with the Earth domain that also includes strength.
Yamatsumi
Interesting question. Anyone got time on their hands want to run the permutations and find out what domain pairs *cant* be done?
|
|
You might want to check out the document Dragnmoon has put up listing PFS legal deities, and their domains. He just updated it for Distant Shores.
Edit: thread link: Gods Authorized for PFS
|
|
Weren't we just over this?
Yes, you can worship Aroden, and gain mechanical benefits from doing so.
There are even a couple PFS-legal Traits for such a character to choose from (HERE and HERE).
Those are the exceptions that prove the rule. In PFS terms. You cannot worship Aroden or Razmir. You can do something that is unique to those two, to qualify for spe ific feats. But it isn't worship in the PFS sense.
I helped write the rule in the guide on this, so I both know the intent and RAW.
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
And even if you look beyond the pure domains, some of the Gods have really strange portfolios.
Like a goddess of prostitutes, virgins and friendship. Of course is the emphasis on the sexual part (if you look at the deific obedience).
Not having looked at whichever goddess that is, I think that is kind of a cool portfolio.
Sounds like a goddess of love in all it's various forms, romantic, platonic, desperate or deferred. After all, what is a virgin but someone saving themselves for love?
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Weren't we just over this?
Yes, you can worship Aroden, and gain mechanical benefits from doing so.
There are even a couple PFS-legal Traits for such a character to choose from (HERE and HERE).
Those are the exceptions that prove the rule. In PFS terms. You cannot worship Aroden or Razmir. You can do something that is unique to those two, to qualify for spe ific feats. But it isn't worship in the PFS sense.
I helped write the rule in the guide on this, so I both know the intent and RAW.
I have no idea what you mean. The item clearly states that Razmir must be your patron, thus he is the 'god' you worship in the PFS sense. The traits require Aroden worship. All three are PFS legal. How is this not worship in the PFS sense and how are these exceptions that prove the rule? They are just the rule.
I cannot have an Aroden trait and then pick up Butterfly Sting because I "something unique" Aroden and "worship" Desna, so it stands to reason that you can worship Aroden and Razmir. You might not be able to be a cleric of Aroden or Razmir as they have no domains, but that is an entirely different thing.
|
|
In some senses, yes.
There is Patron Deity and Witch Patron, for instance. Any Feat, Trait, etc. .. with a deity requirement does require the character to have that deity as their Patron Deity, and while you can worship any and all combinations of deities, something most folks do, including Clerics, no one can ever have more than one Patron Deity.
I think that this went without saying.
It also goes without saying that no matter how little sense it makes, or undesirable it is, yes Clerics do require a Patron Deity in PFS.
To prevent cherry picking. No seriously, people actually think that's a reason.
Because Aroden.
Because Razmir.
All three of these are just excuses, really. Not reasons.
The no cherry picking thing is so outdated it's ridiculous, and even moreso when you have a few deities, core deities at that, that have the best Domain combinations already. Desna, for example. And Pathfinder is far, far beyond the point that it's needed to have such an arbitrary restriction anyway. Domains just are not that great in most cases. The game has moved away from this sort of mentality nearly completely.
Like I hinted at, disallowing Clerics of Aroden, or even Razmir is intended to secure the story/metagamenes of those two individuals, but it was based on the 3.5 Core material, where it was relevant that Bards pretend to be priests and could actually cast cure spells. But now, when you can (and do) have Oracles that literally are priests of legit Aroden, something no one in game can understand the difference between them and a Cleric of Aroden, the whole Aroden thing makes no sense. Similarly with Razmir, when you can have a Sorcerer/Bard/Druid/Oracle/Alchemist/etc. . . being a 100% legit priest, miracles included, the distinction is just, well a bit stupid.
:P
It only makes vague sense in the metagame perspective. But even then, when you can have an Oracle of _______, for example, it just doesn't.
Now, on the other hand, what changes id the idea is just dropped?
Both Clerics and Oracles can be a follower of an deity or an philosophy instead of just Oracles.
A lot of viable concepts work.
People have more fun.
The setting doesn't change at all except that one thing that has no hidden side effects.
We never, ever, ever have to have this topic come up again.
No more "Hey, I want to play a Cleric that does this, this, and this. . ." beings answered by "Play an Oracle".
:P
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
|
LinkyWait, what? This exists?
...the Ancient Osirion Gods blogpost (as I do not own Mummy's Mask book 2),
...
Ahhh, now I see why I didn't know about this. While it's formatted much like the other deity blogposts, this one isn't mentioned in Additional Resources as a legal source :(
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've been looking for Travel and Trickery...I recently discovered that no published Golarion deity gives both Fire and Rune.[
Interesting question. Anyone got time on their hands want to run the permutations and find out what domain pairs *cant* be done?
The god of Dine and Dash?
|
|
You might want to check out the document Dragnmoon has put up listing PFS legal deities, and their domains. He just updated it for Distant Shores.
Edit: thread link: Gods Authorized for PFS
I don't list Domains, I just list the deity and their alignment.