Recharging Ghoul Hide


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion

Paizo Employee Contributor

This came up for me last night: I gained the ghoul hide, but already had 2 armors in my 4-card hand, so I definitely didn't want it. I thought to just recharge it, as I'm proficient with light armors, but I then thought that the Corrupted restriction would kick in--does that restriction apply even when recharging the card when you reset your hand?

I think yes, as it's a power of the armor, but I wanted to check it.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Yep - recharging, displaying, revealing, et al all count as playing the card.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Actually, I'd say it wouldn't be playing the card. You are getting rid of the card because the rules say you can at the end of your turn. The card just has a passive rule changing what action you use. I'd say you're just using part of the rules, and not playing the armor.


"Playing Cards

Anyone can play a card whenever the card allows it. Playing a card
means using a power on that card by revealing, displaying, discarding,
recharging, burying, or banishing that card or by performing another
action specified by that card."


Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Agreed with Andrew;

WotR Rulebook p9 wrote:

Playing a card means using a power on that card by revealing, displaying, discarding, recharging, burying, or banishing that card or by performing another action specified by that card.

...
Doing something with a card that does not use a power on that card does not count as playing that card.
...
Any paragraph in the power section of a boon that doesn't involve playing the card for a particular effect is not itself a power--it's a mandatory action you must take when you play the card.

"If proficient with light armors, you may recharge this card when you reset your hand." (approximate wording as I don't have cards on me at the moment) does not have you recharging the card for any particular effect -- you are simply recharging the card. As a result, it does not count as a power, and due to not being a power it does not count as playing the card.

A strict reading of the rulebook could lend an argument that you can only recharge it at the end of your turn if you played it for its power at some point during the turn, but I don't think anyone plays armors that way. The rulebook is clear at least that recharging it at the end of turn is not playing it for a power however :)


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

My opinion is that using the recharge effect on the armor does qualify as playing the card. I would think it qualifies as the "Performing another action specified by that card" which is exactly what you are doing.

Although....

I guess that would also means that you can only recharge a single armor when you reset your hand because you can only play one armor card during that step. Putting it that way makes me feel like this is wrong.... so maybe it doesn't count as playing that card.


Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Playing a card requires using a power on that card. It's only a power if you're doing something with that card for an effect. This means that there needs to be a clear "do this to do that" action dichotomy (e.g. do an action in order to do an effect). If the text lacks that, it by definition is not a power. If it is not a power, then using it by definition does not count as playing the card.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Vic refers to it as a power here. Though, he wasn't exactly addressing this issue, so I'd cut him some slack if he wanted to take that back.

I personally consider it to be a power and therefore a way of playing the card.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Apophenia wrote:
I guess that would also means that you can only recharge a single armor when you reset your hand because you can only play one armor card during that step. Putting it that way makes me feel like this is wrong.... so maybe it doesn't count as playing that card.

I hasn't even thought of that, but it definitely furthers my belief that it isn't playing the card, because I see no reason this would be true.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Hawkmoon269 wrote:

Vic refers to it as a power here. Though, he wasn't exactly addressing this issue, so I'd cut him some slack if he wanted to take that back.

I personally consider it to be a power and therefore a way of playing the card.

This is how I played it, including the restriction that only one armor can be recharged at the end of the turn. The text is in its own block in the powers section, so I would think that it's a power. Is there some rule that says that powers have to cause an external effect when you use them to play a card?


Yikes... So multiple magic armors can't be recharged at end of turn reset.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Well, I play that you can recharge multiples. I treat that power as a version of a power that happens when you do something. Basically, when you reset your hand you can discard cards if you want. The magic armors say "instead of discarding this card, recharge it". I basically see it as shorthand for "When you would discard this card while resetting your hand, you may recharge it instead." And that means you can do it whenever you would recharge that card while resetting your hand. Which means each one activates individually, so you can recharge multiples.

But maybe that is just me.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Oh, that makes sense. And also that interpretation makes things easier, so I'll take it :)


I swear this 'simple' game keeps surprising me every other day...


Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Kumarei wrote:
Hawkmoon269 wrote:

Vic refers to it as a power here. Though, he wasn't exactly addressing this issue, so I'd cut him some slack if he wanted to take that back.

I personally consider it to be a power and therefore a way of playing the card.

This is how I played it, including the restriction that only one armor can be recharged at the end of the turn. The text is in its own block in the powers section, so I would think that it's a power. Is there some rule that says that powers have to cause an external effect when you use them to play a card?

Yes, there is such a rule. See my rulebook quotes above, notably "Any paragraph in the power section of a boon that doesn't involve playing the card for a particular effect is not itself a power"


skizzerz wrote:
Kumarei wrote:
Is there some rule that says that powers have to cause an external effect when you use them to play a card?
Yes, there is such a rule. See my rulebook quotes above, notably "Any paragraph in the power section of a boon that doesn't involve playing the card for a particular effect is not itself a power"

But that quote goes on to say "it's a mandatory action you must take when you play the card." Recharging an armor when you reset your hand is not a mandatory action. So it's not clear this quote applies.


Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

It is mandatory that the text applies when you reset your hand, but since the text on the armor itself uses the word "may" you don't actually have to recharge the armor if you don't want to -- it doesn't stop the text from having a chance to recharge it though (ergo mandatory action). A strict (and imo wrong) reading of the rulebook would further say that since those paragraphs only apply as mandatory actions when you actually play the card, you can only recharge an armor as you reset your hand if you played it at some point during the turn. There is really no good fit in the rulebook for that recharge text; it isn't a power and it isn't an action you take when playing the card -- it's just kinda there. But I feel it fits better in the latter category than the former if we need to pigeonhole it into the existing rules framework.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

I'm not passing a ruling here yet—just collecting data. Why would you think you could only recharge one such armor at the end of your turn?


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:
Why would you think you could only recharge one such armor at the end of your turn?

The rules in "Encountering a Card" say that "Each player may play no more than 1 card of each type during each step". Since this generally applies during other steps of the game as well (because if it didn't then you could play any number of blessing to close a location, for example) it could also be inferred that could could only play one armor while resetting your hand. So if recharging the armor is playing the armor when you could only play one of them.

At least that is where I am getting that restriction from (Since I brought it up in this thread so I thought I would mention why).


Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:
I'm not passing a ruling here yet—just collecting data. Why would you think you could only recharge one such armor at the end of your turn?

There is no such restriction, as far as I can tell, regardless of whether that bit of text is considered a power or not. We are restricted to playing only 1 card of each type during a Check or during any individual step of an Encounter, but resetting your hand is neither of these. As a result, even if it were considered to be a power (and thus considered to be playing the card), you can do it with multiple armors at the end of your turn.

@Apophenia: The restriction also applies to checks, which is why closing locations is covered. The restriction does not globally apply to all steps of the turn. Otherwise you couldn't play more than one blessing during your explore phase, and we all know that's very false!

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

The thing that prevents you from playing multiple blessings on a check to close a location is that "Attempting a check" says "...each player may not play more than 1 card of each type or use any 1 power more than once during each check, other than cards that can be used each time something particular happens."


Vic Wertz wrote:
The thing that prevents you from playing multiple blessings on a check to close a location is that "Attempting a check" says "...each player may not play more than 1 card of each type or use any 1 power more than once during each check, other than cards that can be used each time something particular happens."

So Adowyn could recharge her entire hand (one at a time) to scout the same location over and over?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Yes cosined. Outside of a check / encounter, you are only limited if a card or power explicitly limits it.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Indeed you are right (And Vic is always right).

Although in my opinion the "Remember that" part of the sentence is a tiny bit confusing since it implies that it is referring back to the rule about Encountering a card not extending that rule to also apply in all checks attempted. (But that is just rulebook phrasing minutiae)


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
cosined wrote:


So Adowyn could recharge her entire hand (one at a time) to scout the same location over and over?

I would say yes. I played Alahazra, who can scout with Divine cards, and some turns would just play my whole hand out, even to see the same card again. Sometimes you might be digging to get a card.

Silver Crusade

jones314 wrote:
cosined wrote:


So Adowyn could recharge her entire hand (one at a time) to scout the same location over and over?
I would say yes. I played Alahazra, who can scout with Divine cards, and some turns would just play my whole hand out, even to see the same card again. Sometimes you might be digging to get a card.

Wait, I thought you could only use a power once per step if it didn't specify a use time. I used to play Alahazra that I could just scout whenever, but I was told that was wrong.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Eliandra Giltessan wrote:
jones314 wrote:
cosined wrote:


So Adowyn could recharge her entire hand (one at a time) to scout the same location over and over?
I would say yes. I played Alahazra, who can scout with Divine cards, and some turns would just play my whole hand out, even to see the same card again. Sometimes you might be digging to get a card.
Wait, I thought you could only use a power once per step if it didn't specify a use time. I used to play Alahazra that I could just scout whenever, but I was told that was wrong.

That was an issue from the Great Alahazra Qs Thread

The issue there was, each cards power can only be used once per step, including step of the turn. Alahazra's character card is a card, so you can only the power on it once per step of the turn.

But then Vic made between steps of the turn a real thing. So, practically speaking you could use her power once during "Advance the blessings deck..." As many times as you wanted between that step and "Give a card". Once during "Give a card." As many times as you wanted between "Give a card" and "Move." And so on. So, practically speaking, you can use her power as much as you want as long as you do it in between the steps of the turn.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:
I'm not passing a ruling here yet—just collecting data. Why would you think you could only recharge one such armor at the end of your turn?

Since the armors are individual cards, there is no problem with playing multiple armors during the End Your Turn step when you reset your hand.

Perhaps the only time it would really matter is if you had to reset your hand mid-encounter. Could you recharge multiple armors then?

Silver Crusade

Yay! Alahazra is back to being the very best character ever instead of just the best character ever.

Thanks, Hawk! (Obv I need to read that thread.)

I apologize for the derail. Please return to your regularly scheduled uncertainty about whether recharging armor is a power. I can see it both ways.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Hawkmoon269 wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
I'm not passing a ruling here yet—just collecting data. Why would you think you could only recharge one such armor at the end of your turn?

Since the armors are individual cards, there is no problem with playing multiple armors during the End Your Turn step when you reset your hand.

Perhaps the only time it would really matter is if you had to reset your hand mid-encounter. Could you recharge multiple armors then?

I'd say just one at that time.

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