paizo.com Recent Posts in Need helping making a Dragon Encounter Challenging/Terrifying. Please Help.paizo.com Recent Posts in Need helping making a Dragon Encounter Challenging/Terrifying. Please Help.2019-05-20T01:59:24Z2019-05-20T01:59:24ZRe: Forums: Advice: Need helping making a Dragon Encounter Challenging/Terrifying. Please Help.pennywithttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t1i8&page=2?Need-helping-making-a-Dragon-Encounter#702022-02-05T20:56:10Z2022-02-05T20:56:10Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Balkoth wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<p>Keep in mind that by doing this you're effectively changing the CR of the creature.
<br />
</blockquote><p>If I roll "dragon" on a random enounter table, I'm going to run the dragon with minimal embellishments. But if the dragon a special critter — named, a legendary dragon, or similar, I want to trick it out a little more and throw in something that's a little unpredictable. "Adult Red Dragon" won't get changed too much. But "Antargapazon the Tyrant of Flame and Shadow" needs to be something special.Balkoth wrote:Keep in mind that by doing this you're effectively changing the CR of the creature.
If I roll "dragon" on a random enounter table, I'm going to run the dragon with minimal embellishments. But if the dragon a special critter -- named, a legendary dragon, or similar, I want to trick it out a little more and throw in something that's a little unpredictable. "Adult Red Dragon" won't get changed too much. But "Antargapazon the Tyrant of Flame and Shadow" needs to be something special.pennywit2022-02-05T20:56:10ZRe: Forums: Advice: Need helping making a Dragon Encounter Challenging/Terrifying. Please Help.KingGramJohnsonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t1i8&page=2?Need-helping-making-a-Dragon-Encounter#692022-02-05T22:13:50Z2021-01-30T19:27:31Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">dterror wrote:</div><blockquote> I know this is a fairly significant thread necro...but I'm curious about further developments now that there has been 7 or 8 months worth of gaming to develop them. </blockquote><p>I'm sorry, I didn't see this until just now. Thank you for the curiosity about it. We finished that homebrewed campaign just before Christmas of 2019. We intended on taking a break for the holidays and starting an AP. But shortly before COIVID-19, one of the players bowed out, and we decided to end the group for the time being (I have another group I play with, so it wasn't that bad for me.)
<p>The campaign ended well. One of the corrupted time traveler players had to leave the group due to school scheduling conflicts, but the others who remained had to deal with the corruption for the remainder of the campaign. They did eventually hire their guide and made it through the Underdark to the Vaults of Orv, and found what they were looking for, freeing a slave along the way.</p>
<p>They were able to make it to the antagonist godess realm and defeat her (imprisoning her in a prison similar to Rovagug's). They were working with other gods to accomplish this goal (this was a divine quest).</p>
<p>They succeeded and were highly blessed by the gods, and received boons and the removal of their corruptions, and were granted the blessing of being offered heroldship when they died if they desired it. </p>
<p>Overall it was a fun campaign, and the players enjoyed it, including the way it all ended. </p>
<p>It's funny how a random encounter with a dragon would alter their plans so much, but it did. They felt the weight of that for the rest of the campaign. </p>
<p>Thank you for asking. :-D</p>dterror wrote:I know this is a fairly significant thread necro...but I'm curious about further developments now that there has been 7 or 8 months worth of gaming to develop them.
I'm sorry, I didn't see this until just now. Thank you for the curiosity about it. We finished that homebrewed campaign just before Christmas of 2019. We intended on taking a break for the holidays and starting an AP. But shortly before COIVID-19, one of the players bowed out, and we decided to end the group for the...KingGramJohnson2021-01-30T19:27:31ZRe: Forums: Advice: Need helping making a Dragon Encounter Challenging/Terrifying. Please Help.dterrorhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t1i8&page=2?Need-helping-making-a-Dragon-Encounter#682020-03-05T11:56:05Z2020-03-05T11:56:05Z<p>I know this is a fairly significant thread necro...but I'm curious about further developments now that there has been 7 or 8 months worth of gaming to develop them.</p>I know this is a fairly significant thread necro...but I'm curious about further developments now that there has been 7 or 8 months worth of gaming to develop them.dterror2020-03-05T11:56:05ZRe: Forums: Advice: Need helping making a Dragon Encounter Challenging/Terrifying. Please Help.KingGramJohnsonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t1i8&page=2?Need-helping-making-a-Dragon-Encounter#672021-02-04T01:24:53Z2019-07-03T12:40:33Z<p>Update:</p>
<p>Well...they did it. They traveled through time to prevent themselves from fighting the dragon in the first place. </p>
<p>I attacked them almost right away with some Hounds of Tindalos, like
<br />
Reksew_Trebla suggested (thank you). </p>
<p>Other consequences they'll need to deal with are as follows:</p>
<p>- The three of them who traveled though time have corruptions that will begin to manifest shortly.</p>
<p>- A Bythos aeon has them on it's radar (they're too low level to deal with it at the moment).</p>
<p>- A time dragon may eventually show up and read them the riot act. </p>
<p>- The main villain of the story (who happens to also be a goddess) is now aware of the party and is watching them (it'll take too long to explain, but this goddess was unaware of the party and their movements against her, but now their time travel caught her attention. This could be campaign ending bad for them).</p>
<p>Thank you everyone for the help and advice on the fight with the red dragon. This was a wild ride for the last several weeks taking turns I never thought it would.</p>Update:
Well...they did it. They traveled through time to prevent themselves from fighting the dragon in the first place.
I attacked them almost right away with some Hounds of Tindalos, like
Reksew_Trebla suggested (thank you).
Other consequences they'll need to deal with are as follows:
- The three of them who traveled though time have corruptions that will begin to manifest shortly.
- A Bythos aeon has them on it's radar (they're too low level to deal with it at the moment).
- A time...KingGramJohnson2019-07-03T12:40:33ZRe: Forums: Advice: Need helping making a Dragon Encounter Challenging/Terrifying. Please Help.McDaygohttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t1i8&page=2?Need-helping-making-a-Dragon-Encounter#662019-07-01T10:58:09Z2019-07-01T10:58:09Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">KingGramJohnson wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Hugo Rune wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I think the time travel idea is great especially if you add some corruptions. </p>
<p>Change the dragon, what about an evil gold dragon Change the kobolds, they're now hobgoblins with draconic heritage. The loot is now heavily invested in a shadow organisation that is looking to covertly overthrow the ruler and place the dragon in ultimate control. </p>
<p>The party will get a do over and hopefully learn from their mistakes. But they will quickly realise that this encounter is different. The invested loot will mean that the party can't buy another wish. </blockquote><p>Yes, now to decide which corruption to use...
<p>As for changing things. I honestly love the idea of that, but it would make no sense to my group. Why would going back a week to refight a dragon change the type or dragon and how the area's government works? I don't think I want to introduce alternate realities into this game. If they were going back further, maybe that might alter something more drastically, but not if they're going back a week.</p>
<p>I think I may stick with a corruption (I may advance it a little since they're about to hit level 11; give them more than 1 manifestation), and possible an aeon or time dragon upset with them. :-) </blockquote><p>How one group of mine did it is if a dragon’s alignment shifted, it’s scales start to shift to the appropriate color alignment scales overtime.KingGramJohnson wrote:Hugo Rune wrote:I think the time travel idea is great especially if you add some corruptions.
Change the dragon, what about an evil gold dragon Change the kobolds, they're now hobgoblins with draconic heritage. The loot is now heavily invested in a shadow organisation that is looking to covertly overthrow the ruler and place the dragon in ultimate control.
The party will get a do over and hopefully learn from their mistakes. But they will quickly realise that this...McDaygo2019-07-01T10:58:09ZRe: Forums: Advice: Need helping making a Dragon Encounter Challenging/Terrifying. Please Help.Darigaaz the Igniterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t1i8&page=2?Need-helping-making-a-Dragon-Encounter#652019-06-30T05:02:11Z2019-06-30T05:02:11Z<p>Smart use of a wish would be to either res both of their fallen companions or shut off the volcano.</p>Smart use of a wish would be to either res both of their fallen companions or shut off the volcano.Darigaaz the Igniter2019-06-30T05:02:11ZRe: Forums: Advice: Need helping making a Dragon Encounter Challenging/Terrifying. Please Help.KingGramJohnsonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t1i8&page=2?Need-helping-making-a-Dragon-Encounter#642019-06-29T20:46:10Z2019-06-29T20:46:10Z<p>Yeah, things took a crazy turn. We'll see what happens. </p>
<p>I'm going to make it clear that if they use the wish spell to alter the past there will be heavy consequences. I'm aware that time travel goes far beyond the power of a normal wish. I'm hoping they wise up and either don't use wish at all, or choose to use it in a different way than the few options they thought of.</p>Yeah, things took a crazy turn. We'll see what happens.
I'm going to make it clear that if they use the wish spell to alter the past there will be heavy consequences. I'm aware that time travel goes far beyond the power of a normal wish. I'm hoping they wise up and either don't use wish at all, or choose to use it in a different way than the few options they thought of.KingGramJohnson2019-06-29T20:46:10ZRe: Forums: Advice: Need helping making a Dragon Encounter Challenging/Terrifying. Please Help.Hugo Runehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t1i8&page=2?Need-helping-making-a-Dragon-Encounter#632019-06-29T17:48:36Z2019-06-29T17:48:36Z<p>I was thinking of the Flash and how things changed as a result of time travel; particularly the Flashpoint story arc a couple of seasons ago. </p>
<p>The 'corruption' was a corruption of reality and would give you an opportunity for a do over without the players being in a potential groundhog day scenario.</p>I was thinking of the Flash and how things changed as a result of time travel; particularly the Flashpoint story arc a couple of seasons ago.
The 'corruption' was a corruption of reality and would give you an opportunity for a do over without the players being in a potential groundhog day scenario.Hugo Rune2019-06-29T17:48:36ZRe: Forums: Advice: Need helping making a Dragon Encounter Challenging/Terrifying. Please Help.Scott Wilhelmhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t1i8&page=2?Need-helping-making-a-Dragon-Encounter#622019-06-29T16:19:58Z2019-06-29T16:19:58Z<p>It sounds like what you intended to be a side quest has taken the OP's campaign in a fundamentally new direction.</p>It sounds like what you intended to be a side quest has taken the OP's campaign in a fundamentally new direction.Scott Wilhelm2019-06-29T16:19:58ZRe: Forums: Advice: Need helping making a Dragon Encounter Challenging/Terrifying. Please Help.Kayerlothhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t1i8&page=2?Need-helping-making-a-Dragon-Encounter#612019-06-29T15:35:56Z2019-06-29T15:10:29Z<p>Sounds like epic fun but be aware that is well beyond the power of a 'normal' Wish. By RAW/RAI you're well off the bullet points and into a Wish —> <div class="messageboard-quotee">portion of Wish text wrote:</div><blockquote>You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM's discretion.)</blockquote><p>Use care because it sets a precedence in what they can expect the spell to accomplish.
<p>PS: A single Wish would undo the effect of the Teleport Trap but leave all the other problems quite intact ... exploding volcano, extremely annoyed Red Dragon, any Fanatic Kobolds that survive (like the cliche hunting party with the High Priest favored son.), lots of countryside and populace still under threat etc., etc.. </p>
<p>At the end of the day it is still just a 9th level spell albeit at the upper end of what one can pull off with a mortal magic.</p>Sounds like epic fun but be aware that is well beyond the power of a 'normal' Wish. By RAW/RAI you're well off the bullet points and into a Wish --> portion of Wish text wrote:You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM's discretion.)
Use care because it sets a precedence in what they can expect the spell to accomplish. PS: A...Kayerloth2019-06-29T15:10:29ZRe: Forums: Advice: Need helping making a Dragon Encounter Challenging/Terrifying. Please Help.Reksew_Treblahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t1i8&page=2?Need-helping-making-a-Dragon-Encounter#602020-03-05T20:31:20Z2019-06-29T13:56:31Z<p><a href="https://aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Hound%20of%20Tindalos" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Hounds of Tindalos</a> are CR 7 evil outsiders that target people like time travelers, even if it was simply looking at the past/future and not actual time travel (though they also target actual time travelers too).</p>Hounds of Tindalos are CR 7 evil outsiders that target people like time travelers, even if it was simply looking at the past/future and not actual time travel (though they also target actual time travelers too).Reksew_Trebla2019-06-29T13:56:31ZRe: Forums: Advice: Need helping making a Dragon Encounter Challenging/Terrifying. Please Help.KingGramJohnsonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t1i8&page=2?Need-helping-making-a-Dragon-Encounter#592019-06-29T12:03:09Z2019-06-29T12:03:09Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Hugo Rune wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I think the time travel idea is great especially if you add some corruptions. </p>
<p>Change the dragon, what about an evil gold dragon Change the kobolds, they're now hobgoblins with draconic heritage. The loot is now heavily invested in a shadow organisation that is looking to covertly overthrow the ruler and place the dragon in ultimate control. </p>
<p>The party will get a do over and hopefully learn from their mistakes. But they will quickly realise that this encounter is different. The invested loot will mean that the party can't buy another wish. </blockquote><p>Yes, now to decide which corruption to use...
<p>As for changing things. I honestly love the idea of that, but it would make no sense to my group. Why would going back a week to refight a dragon change the type or dragon and how the area's government works? I don't think I want to introduce alternate realities into this game. If they were going back further, maybe that might alter something more drastically, but not if they're going back a week.</p>
<p>I think I may stick with a corruption (I may advance it a little since they're about to hit level 11; give them more than 1 manifestation), and possible an aeon or time dragon upset with them. :-)</p>Hugo Rune wrote:I think the time travel idea is great especially if you add some corruptions.
Change the dragon, what about an evil gold dragon Change the kobolds, they're now hobgoblins with draconic heritage. The loot is now heavily invested in a shadow organisation that is looking to covertly overthrow the ruler and place the dragon in ultimate control.
The party will get a do over and hopefully learn from their mistakes. But they will quickly realise that this encounter is different....KingGramJohnson2019-06-29T12:03:09ZRe: Forums: Advice: Need helping making a Dragon Encounter Challenging/Terrifying. Please Help.Hugo Runehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t1i8&page=2?Need-helping-making-a-Dragon-Encounter#582019-06-29T04:43:12Z2019-06-29T04:41:51Z<p>I think the time travel idea is great especially if you add some corruptions. </p>
<p>Change the dragon, what about an evil gold dragon Change the kobolds, they're now hobgoblins with draconic heritage. The loot is now heavily invested in a shadow organisation that is looking to covertly overthrow the ruler and place the dragon in ultimate control. </p>
<p>The party will get a do over and hopefully learn from their mistakes. But they will quickly realise that this encounter is different. The invested loot will mean that the party can't buy another wish.</p>I think the time travel idea is great especially if you add some corruptions.
Change the dragon, what about an evil gold dragon Change the kobolds, they're now hobgoblins with draconic heritage. The loot is now heavily invested in a shadow organisation that is looking to covertly overthrow the ruler and place the dragon in ultimate control.
The party will get a do over and hopefully learn from their mistakes. But they will quickly realise that this encounter is different. The invested loot...Hugo Rune2019-06-29T04:41:51ZRe: Forums: Advice: Need helping making a Dragon Encounter Challenging/Terrifying. Please Help.KingGramJohnsonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t1i8&page=2?Need-helping-making-a-Dragon-Encounter#572019-06-28T16:18:19Z2019-06-28T16:18:19Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:</div><blockquote> Time Dragons are neutral, one might even try and reason with them and talk them out of it before killing them outright </blockquote><p>Honestly, I thought about it. They wish, they get set through time, but intercepted by a time dragon who reads them the riot act. That might be fun for me, but I don't know if they'll have fun with that. However, instead of an aeon, I could have a time dragon go after them.
<p>If I had more time, I would want to create my own corruption that functioned like some kind of temporal displacement. It would be fun to create effects for it. Maybe I'll try, I just don't think I can do it by Monday. LOL.</p>Chromantic Durgon Time Dragons are neutral, one might even try and reason with them and talk them out of it before killing them outright
Honestly, I thought about it. They wish, they get set through time, but intercepted by a time dragon who reads them the riot act. That might be fun for me, but I don't know if they'll have fun with that. However, instead of an aeon, I could have a time dragon go after them. If I had more time, I would want to create my own corruption that functioned like...KingGramJohnson2019-06-28T16:18:19ZRe: Forums: Advice: Need helping making a Dragon Encounter Challenging/Terrifying. Please Help.Chromantic Durgon <3https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t1i8&page=2?Need-helping-making-a-Dragon-Encounter#562019-06-28T12:51:28Z2019-06-28T12:51:28Z<p>Time Dragons are neutral, one might even try and reason with them and talk them out of it before killing them outright</p>Time Dragons are neutral, one might even try and reason with them and talk them out of it before killing them outrightChromantic Durgon <32019-06-28T12:51:28ZRe: Forums: Advice: Need helping making a Dragon Encounter Challenging/Terrifying. Please Help.Dαedαlus (alias of Daedalus the Dungeon Builder)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t1i8&page=2?Need-helping-making-a-Dragon-Encounter#552020-03-05T20:15:57Z2019-06-28T12:44:28Z<p>Oof. That would be brutal.</p>
<p>“Yay! We traveled through time and messed with causality so that we could survive our encounter with that dragon. Wait. What’s that shadow?”</p>Oof. That would be brutal.
“Yay! We traveled through time and messed with causality so that we could survive our encounter with that dragon. Wait. What’s that shadow?”Dαedαlus (alias of Daedalus the Dungeon Builder)2019-06-28T12:44:28ZRe: Forums: Advice: Need helping making a Dragon Encounter Challenging/Terrifying. Please Help.Chromantic Durgon <3https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t1i8&page=2?Need-helping-making-a-Dragon-Encounter#542020-03-05T20:16:07Z2019-06-28T12:40:31Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">KingGramJohnson wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:</div><blockquote> Are the players happy? </blockquote><p>Yes, they're having fun. I mean, they're upset that characters died due to unexpected circumstances, and that they basically failed at what they were trying to do, but at the same time they know that they did it to themselves, so they're not upset with me or anything.
<p>And, I think they're excited to use a wish spell and possibly muck about with time. </p>
<p>•I'm• not happy about that, because I would rather them deal with the consequences of their actions and move on rather than try to rewind time and "fix" things, which isn't a guarantee and they may end up making things worse if they do it wrong. But at the same time, I'm a GM who likes to go with the flow, if the players want to try this, and they have the means to do so, I'll let them do it.</p>
<p>But I'm thinking that if they go with the time travel route, they will have to deal with some nasty stuff, which they've been warned about. </blockquote><p>Why don't you involve a time dragon :)KingGramJohnson wrote:Chromantic Durgon Are the players happy?
Yes, they're having fun. I mean, they're upset that characters died due to unexpected circumstances, and that they basically failed at what they were trying to do, but at the same time they know that they did it to themselves, so they're not upset with me or anything. And, I think they're excited to use a wish spell and possibly muck about with time.
*I'm* not happy about that, because I would rather them deal with the...Chromantic Durgon <32019-06-28T12:40:31ZRe: Forums: Advice: Need helping making a Dragon Encounter Challenging/Terrifying. Please Help.McDaygohttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t1i8&page=2?Need-helping-making-a-Dragon-Encounter#532019-06-28T12:27:25Z2019-06-28T12:27:25Z<p>Give the dragon minions. Fanatics that worship him as a god.</p>Give the dragon minions. Fanatics that worship him as a god.McDaygo2019-06-28T12:27:25ZRe: Forums: Advice: Need helping making a Dragon Encounter Challenging/Terrifying. Please Help.KingGramJohnsonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t1i8&page=2?Need-helping-making-a-Dragon-Encounter#522019-06-28T11:48:20Z2019-06-28T11:48:20Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:</div><blockquote> Are the players happy? </blockquote><p>Yes, they're having fun. I mean, they're upset that characters died due to unexpected circumstances, and that they basically failed at what they were trying to do, but at the same time they know that they did it to themselves, so they're not upset with me or anything.
<p>And, I think they're excited to use a wish spell and possibly muck about with time. </p>
<p>•I'm• not happy about that, because I would rather them deal with the consequences of their actions and move on rather than try to rewind time and "fix" things, which isn't a guarantee and they may end up making things worse if they do it wrong. But at the same time, I'm a GM who likes to go with the flow, if the players want to try this, and they have the means to do so, I'll let them do it.</p>
<p>But I'm thinking that if they go with the time travel route, they will have to deal with some nasty stuff, which they've been warned about.</p>Chromantic Durgon Are the players happy?
Yes, they're having fun. I mean, they're upset that characters died due to unexpected circumstances, and that they basically failed at what they were trying to do, but at the same time they know that they did it to themselves, so they're not upset with me or anything. And, I think they're excited to use a wish spell and possibly muck about with time.
*I'm* not happy about that, because I would rather them deal with the consequences of their actions...KingGramJohnson2019-06-28T11:48:20ZRe: Forums: Advice: Need helping making a Dragon Encounter Challenging/Terrifying. Please Help.Chromantic Durgon <3https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t1i8&page=2?Need-helping-making-a-Dragon-Encounter#512019-06-27T23:13:05Z2019-06-27T23:13:05Z<p>Are the players happy?</p>Are the players happy?Chromantic Durgon <32019-06-27T23:13:05Z