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The same boon? Yes, without question. It's hard enough getting enough convention GMs even with the attraction of an exclusive boon.
Because it works. PFS is the most successful that it's ever been, GenCon attendance is an all-time high (i expect the same at other cons), at least 'locally' (within a 6 hour drive) conventions are successful.
Why rock the boat?
Oddly enough convention boons work if you go to conventions .
Do you honestly think you're going to lose convention DMs if you offer a boon for running 10, 20, 30, or 40 game day events instead?
How big of a draw could it be? Most con Dms DM at multiple cons. They can't be running that many suli or raising that many xenophobic characters. You would more likely pick up more potential DMs by expanding the DM pool
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Now the question is 'what boon would you feel properly rewards a GM?' since you have disparaged the current GM star boon.
Personally, I'd like it to be something that adds a bit more setting, or the idea of the GM being more well informed about the in game Society or the world as a whole. I tend to find, being that I mostly play Divine Casters, the rewards just not very useful except for at the higher end. Especially things like the aegis of recovery, is just basically one more thing I can already do, just a bit worse. It also kind of competes with the Dawnflower Sash.
I also tend to dislike temporary, or one off bonuses. So a few suggestions I would like is maybe
1 Star: You get a free extra Starting Language of your choice.
2 Star: During the introduction to a Scenario, you automatically make one Knowledge Check to find out more details about the scenario when speaking to a Venture Captain. You treat it as is you where Trained in the Skill, and had rolled a total of 15 + your GM Stars. This can only be used after each other player has attempted that specific check if they are able to.
3 Star: When applying GM Credit to a Character, you are treated as if you had a Down Time benefit. This does not allow you to make a Day Job Check, but it does allow you to mark off Boons, or utilize other Down Time Benefits. If the specific Scenario, Module, or Quest does not normally allow for a Day Job or Down Time Check, this does not grant you that ability.
3 Star Alternate: You can take a 3rd Trait <universal>.
4 and 5 Star rewards stay the same, more for simplicity than anything.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Game day organizers do a crazy amount of work. If they are offering weekly, or even bi-monthly, PFS events they are scheduling scenarios to draw players (a delicate task of navigating what has and has not been played locally), recruiting GMs (which can be quite the chore, as has been made apparent by many of these kinds of threads), setting up a location to have the event (and do not doubt that sometimes those locations need "massaging" of their own for everything to stay smooth), recruiting players to play (via announcement or on-site mustering), then all the paperwork and followup that comes with having run the event. They have to do this each and every time.
GMs for these game days do a lot of the heavy lifting for the organizer; whether because the organizer also takes on the mantle of GM (sometimes exclusively, because others *won't* GM), or because they are paying for their scenarios, supplies, etc., and making sure to run a good game so the game day doesn't get a "bad rep."
I don't think anyone can deny that.
Having been an organizer for years, now, I'd be pretty miffed if you told me my workload was lighter than any convention organizer.
Having been a GM for that game day for years, now, I'd be especially miffed if you told me my responsibility in that venue was less than what it is at a convention.
For the record: I have both organized and GM'd at conventions, as well as running my in-store game days, so can directly compare the situations with my own experiences.
Now, having said all that, I know I get "compensation" for both things. I'm aware of the benefits for doing the job at both venues, and am pretty happy with them. Then again, I'm one of those guys who would do the job without *any* benefits at *either* venue.
But the difference in compensation level is not indicative of the difference in responsibility. The rewards are vastly unequal. And providing unequal rewards for the same (or even, arguably, a harder) job is not conducive to good will.
Just even out the rewards and put an end to the "class war" that continues to crop up on a regular basis.
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I can't help shake the feeling you want something [else] free.
Running game days is in no way free.
You should know this, but instead seem content to build your facts solely to support a justification for the disparaging attitude that makes you feel entitled to the rewards that you would deny to others.
What I want is a carrot to get people to start DMing. If they work for cons, I don't see why they wouldn't work for game days.
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First, let me say I am a bit resistant to change... I tend to look at things that are working now and realize that changing them can brake them. ... and I'm happy with the way it works now. Please don't brake it, trying to fix a problem, when I'm not sure it's a problem.
The game changes every month when a new resource comes out. We changed the 1-7 tier when that was problematic, introduced Dming rewards at conventions, introduced the DM star chronicles, built up the factions, paired down the factions,
The idea that giving game day dms. one tenth.. one. TENTH of what con day DMs get is going to break the game is absolutely ludicrous.
Everyone is constantly complaining about
7 person tables
not enough Dms
No games in the area
when the only real fix to those is more Dms. So yes, there are multiple problems here.
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I am in the similar murky waters as nosig. It's pretty much an argument over a piece of paper for me, but then again, I only see this paper as something cool, not something unfairly won. I bet that if you asked players at those conventions the same question "Do you feel that Con GMs are getting race boons unfairly?" the most would say "No". Giving some additional non-race boons per number of GM stars might be cool, but people will always complain about forbidden fruit I guess.
Adam
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@ BNW: Up front, my position is the same as yours—there should be greater rewards for week-to-week game day GMs, possibly including race boons similar to those given to Con GMs.
That said...Doing so actually would be taking away from Con GMs. Some of the appeal to some of the people is the exclusivity of those boons. That is why the goblin boons and the single red mantis assassin boon are all such a big deal. So, giving out race boons to a wider population is diminishing that exclusivity.
Other than that small detail, I completely agree with you:
Premise 1: Boons are necessary to incentivize people to GM at Cons.
Premise 2: Most actual PFS play takes place at weekly game days at the FLGS.
Premise 3: Game day organizers have a heck of a time getting enough people to GM for their weekly games.
Conclusion: Boons would be a good way to incentivize people to GM at local weekly game days.
I wouldn't mind if the two different groups (Con GMs and weekly GMs) were given different reward structures. I can understand the desire behind that. But they should be equitable and commensurate with what they give back to the community. They don't need to be the same; however, right now the system has Group A getting all of the rewards, and Group B getting none.
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I would like to see Game day GMs get some cool boons too. I'm not sure that we need to make it race boons though. There is a ton of material that comes out each year, if a little bit less of it was given the automatic green light for PFS play then that would leave a lot more "cool stuff" to add as boons that could be awarded to GMs for every 10, 15 , or however many games GMed the coordinators think is reasonable.
For example, when the next hardcover book comes out, a bunch of stuff from it is not PFS legal without a boon, then in the 2016 calendar year, when you GM your 10th scenario (or however many is deemed appropriate) you get a boon that opens up some of those options for the character the boon is applied to.
This way there is still something cool to give con GMs in the race boons, but there is something that is just as valuable given to game day GMs who are doing the week to week work of keeping things running at our FLGS. I think the key is making it something that isn't exactly the same as what con GMs get but something of equal value. The only way I see that working is keeping more new material out of PFS without a boon.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Disclaimer: I know The Fox isn't rabble-rousing one way or the other; it's just that the following quote is very germane to this discussion.
I wouldn't mind if the two different groups (Con GMs and weekly GMs) were given different reward structures. I can understand the desire behind that. But they should be equitable and commensurate with what they give back to the community. They don't need to be the same; however, right now the system has Group A getting all of the rewards, and Group B getting none.
A few things regarding this:
Game day (henceforth referred to by me as "regular") GMs get rewards. They are tied to the games they run. They get chronicles, and they climb their way up the "star" ladder. To be very clear, I am unaware of any OrgPlay system that rewards its regular GMs as well as PFS does.
Convention GMs have access to these exact same rewards. As they should.
Convention GMs get access to lots of other goodies:
- The (much discussed) race boons
- Lots of other unique boons like the Treasure Map boon
- The "coin" system wherein a GM gets a coin for each game they run and can turn those coins in for schwag, or more boons
- Free entrance to the convention
- Paid-for gaming slots equal to the number of GM slots you take
- Potentially, free room and board, depending on the convention
There is are several things on that list that aren't available to regular GMs, and wouldn't make sense to make available to regular GMs. Conventions will always have plenty of ways to motivate GMs to come help run games at their events. Things like boons never existed Back In The Day(tm), and plenty of people happily volunteered to run games (likely due to programs similar to what I've already listed).
As you have alluded to by highlighting the differences, people really aren't very far apart on this issue. They *are* very far apart on how much the race boons mean, I think. Which is what is driving this argument.
My Conclusion: There are plenty of things that convention organizers can offer to provide GMs incentive to run games for their events. I've been there and done that, in fact. There is no reason to withhold special boons for convention purposes, only.
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That said...Doing so actually would be taking away from Con GMs. Some of the appeal to some of the people is the exclusivity of those boons. That is why the goblin boons and the single red mantis assassin boon are all such a big deal. So, giving out race boons to a wider population is diminishing that exclusivity.
Is anyone arguing for making boons THAT exclusive a prize for game day DMing?
I wouldn't mind if the two different groups (Con GMs and weekly GMs) were given different reward structures. I can understand the desire behind that. But they should be equitable and commensurate with what they give back to the community.
That doesn't appear to be a realistic goal here.
Look how much resistance Giving a game day dm LAST years boon for running 10 times as many games as a con dm is meeting with.
I still think that would get you more DMs than it costs you. Players that have tried DMing are more likely to be willing to run a game or two at a con, and take some of the burden off of the regular con DMs running 7 and 8 games a weekend for multiple cons (who are either not being motivated by boons or need to join planetouched anonymous)
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Personally, there are very few Boons I really even care about. The two biggest ones, (Star Replay and Aasimar) I've already achieved, though not received by GMing for the most recent Online Game Day. Every single other boon I've won, (at least 1 per previous Game Day), I gave away to new players that didn't win anything. That included two Elemental Planetouched.
Outside of Aasimar, I'm just not that interested in Race Boons. Granted, if I finally got the chance to make a BattleToad or Sir Didymus, I totally would.
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I have only ever gained one race boon: a sylph. I'd really like to make a sylph, so I was happy to get it. Instead of using it, however, I gave it to a new GM as thanks for stepping up. If I got another one, I would probably use it the same way, we are so short of GMs here.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I have only ever gained one race boon: a sylph. I'd really like to make a sylph, so I was happy to get it. Instead of using it, however, I gave it to a new GM as thanks for stepping up. If I got another one, I would probably use it the same way, we are so short of GMs here.
This right here is why I know that broadening the program of special boons would not be in any way detrimental to this community.
By and large, I think people like The Fox, DM Beckett, and BigNorseWolf epitomize what makes the PFS community of GMs and game day organizers special. They are already selfless in the service they perform for their fellow players. Does anyone really think people like them would abuse a program wherein race boons were made occasionally available to their non-convention events?
Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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Hey Gang --
So... Let's consolidate ideas and consider the proposed reward structure again.
- The need for a Gameday GM reward that is different but of equal value to what is offered at Cons.
This could be a race boon that isn't offered at conventions, or a boon that offers up an option for characters not otherwise available. - Onset and Frequency of Reward. I had advocated for bypassing the first star, but I can see how it would be nice to have a "carrot" in reach. Ideas that were suggested for frequency of boon reward included:
1) Star-only Boons.
Most Conservative option, allowing for five boons over a gameday GM's career.2) Boons to reward a certain number of games done in a calendar year.
Personally, I think that this might lead to GMs "racing" to acheive the right numbers, and rushing games or skipping prep to get the highest rewards, but I can see the appeal of having tiers to reward frequent GMing.3) Boons every X number of games.
The numbers here range from every 4 to every 10, 20, or 50, depending on how generous we want to be.
So let's talk about that frequency. How do we balance the need to keep boons special with the need to encourage gameday GMs? Where can we strike a working balance?
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Analysis of the Boon Frequency Problem
I think the average GM should earn about 1 (race) boon per year of GMing. The rest of this post will be based on that principle.
We would not have a shortage of GMs if every player GMed 1 game out of every 5. In fact, we would have a surplus.
Given that there are 52 weeks per year, and most game locations play weekly but take the weeks of Thanksgiving and Christmas off, we can safely assume about 50 game days in a location per year.
By a deep theorem of arithmetic, I propose that 1 boon per 10 GM sessions seems about right.
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Common Ideas that Resurface Again and Again
The need for a Gameday GM reward that is different but of equal value to what is offered at Cons.
This could be a race boon that isn't offered at conventions, or a boon that offers up an option for characters not otherwise available.
I think that's a laudable but unrealistic goal. It doesn't need to be seats on the 50 yard line that regular convention boons are but it has to be better than tailgating it in the parking lot where it currently is.
1) Star-only Boons.
Most Conservative option, allowing for five boons over a gameday GM's career.
BNW- You could throw in an adder for 1/50 after that, same as the star chronicle sheets.
2) Boons to reward a certain number of games done in a calendar year.
Personally, I think that this might lead to GMs "racing" to acheive the right numbers, and rushing games or skipping prep to get the highest rewards, but I can see the appeal of having tiers to reward frequent GMing.
BNW: definitely could feel more like a slog than a game with a time requirement.
3) Boons every X number of games.
The numbers here range from every 4 to every 10, 20, or 50, depending on how generous we want to be.
BNW: Someone suggested a chronicle sheet like the Expanded narative (star recharge) for tracking this.
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Someone suggested a chronicle sheet like the Expanded narative (star recharge) for tracking this.
Ooh! I know! What about a sheet like the faction journal cards where you can choose which race you are working toward?
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜ Sylph You may create one sylph PC.
I really like this.
What would you lot think of having game days and cons both using this system, but with running at a con granting extra points?
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Someone suggested a chronicle sheet like the Expanded narative (star recharge) for tracking this.
Ooh! I know! What about a sheet like the faction journal cards where you can choose which race you are working toward?
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜ Sylph You may create one sylph PC.
You could even stagger it , 10 for last years model, 25 for this years.
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Someone suggested a chronicle sheet like the Expanded narative (star recharge) for tracking this.
Ooh! I know! What about a sheet like the faction journal cards where you can choose which race you are working toward?
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜ Sylph You may create one sylph PC.
I really like this.
What would you lot think of having game days and cons both using this system, but with running at a con granting extra points?
No matter how well it works, I think people would complain about it messing up the system still in place, so it might be best to leave it as its own monster rather than try to mate it to anything else and wind up with an owlbear or something.
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The other nice thing about having it be 10 sessions is that your first race boon gets unlocked exactly at your first star.
When a player remarks, "Hey, I really like your catfolk rogue! How can I play a catfolk?" I can reply, "GM 10 tables, my friend."
Catfolk were a charity boon, so no dice there.
Ok, that was a bad example, but the point remains.
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:P
<Feels so left out. . .>
I feel bad that I stole your thunder. Your story obviously spurred me to post my own.
What I mean is...
Yay us! :)
No worries. I was just kidding.
The other nice thing about having it be 10 sessions is that your first race boon gets unlocked exactly at your first star.
When a player remarks, "Hey, I really like your catfolk rogue! How can I play a catfolk?" I can reply, "GM 10 tables, my friend."
The only issue with this is, and I think it's a valid one, is this would could encourage people to DM for just that Boon, and might not offer the best experience they can. I could, however see this as a 3+ Star reward, where it's a lot less likely to risk this happening. I suggested this some time ago, and I went with Ratfolk and Grippli. Ratfolk because there is also a 2-parter that offered a really good in game possibility to allow Ratfolk into the Pathfinder Society.
A bit more recently, there is a scenario that is setting up Grippli already.
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I do not think race boons should be given out outside of cons and here is why:
There is already concern that PFS is becoming a little too much of a menagerie of races. Allowing for a large influx of race boons, which all of the ideas for race boons out side of cons mentioned thus far would, will transform PFS being too much of a menagerie from a concern into a reality.
Cons are where Paizo does most of their marketing. Cons are where I encounter the most number of new players to PFS. The race boon is an incentive to come GM because it is special. At least in my case, if I could get race boons at a local game day, I would probably not GM at cons, barring gencon. My vacation days are limited and there are many demands on them. I need that extra push to use a vacation day and save up money to go GM in what I find to be the most challenging environment. After all I don't have to go to a con to get my GMing fix.
Now my last reason is a bit tongue and cheek, but it is what I am hearing being said by people clamoring for race boons. This may not be what you are saying, but this is what I am hearing.
"Con goers get nice race boons for GMing. I do not. I want to get something too. After all I work hard and contribute. I want to get a nice race boon. I do not want to save up the money to go to the con. I do not want to set aside time three months in advance to answer the call far GMs. I do not I do not want to go GM at a con to get the nice race boon. I should be given a race boon for what I have already done because I work just as hard."
My response to what I am hearing is that while you may work just as hard you are not committing the same personal investment (vacation days, travel time, the stress of gaming in a hazardess environment for strangers where you are likely to get sick). You are not taking the time to plan ahead to make it affordable. You are not willing to pony up and come to a Con to GM, so you should not get the special race boon.
Now some have mentioned that they are not able to. I do not believe this is true for most people making that claim. Careful planning and sacrifice goes a very long way to accomplishing goals. I do believe that there are many who say they can't go to Cons because on their list of priorities there are enough things more important to them, and that they do not want to make necessary sacrifice. I am sorry but is a personal problem that needs to be solved personally.
I will concede that there are those for whom not being able to go to a can is not a personal problem. Maybe they are a minor, or are immobile. I would like to remind them that there are online Cons that Paizo supports. GMing for them is a relatively convenient option.
I would also like to say that I am in favor of rewarding game day coordinators and GMs for their hard work. Boon support is an option. Free PFS scenarios to offset costs are an option. But race boons and Paizo merchandise should stay at Cons.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I think some people here have unrealistic expectations.
As has been pointed out, PFS already gives more rewards to GMs than other organized play systems have done. But, despite that, Paizo feel that it is necessary to provide more to attract GMs to conventions, and have chosen to provide convention-exclusive boons.
Arguing that Paizo should reconsider this position, and allow other GMs to have access to basically the same boons, isn't likely to have much success. The more that approach is called for as the solution, the less likely it is that anything will be done. It's by no means the first time this argument has been made, and I see no reason why it would yield any different results today than on previous occasions.
Stepping away from that position, though, and arguing for a different incentive to attract GMs for regular weekly game days has worked in the past; it might work again.
Note, too, that with the changes to the Venture Corps announced in this week's blog, it's more likely that a game day GM will be able to get at least a hardcopy of a scenario. That's theoretically been true for some time - registered retailers that host PFS play can get the scenarios - but I've rarely seen it occur in practice.
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Because the current system completely spurns the game day GMs. Why do you think that only con GMs deserve special boons?I have a suggestion.
How about we keep things as they are?
Because it works. PFS is the most successful that it's ever been, GenCon attendance is an all-time high (i expect the same at other cons), at least 'locally' (within a 6 hour drive) conventions are successful.
Why rock the boat?
Because it is already sinking in several areas.
In my area, we have three GMs who are visible, we all run alternately (more-or-less) at the same store, once (on Saturdays), rarely twice (on Sundays), a week. At least one of those GMs was having burnout issues, as, for quite some time, he was the only one running until he told everyone he needed to take a break. And one of the GMs is a recent arrival in town, and the other only recently came out of GM retirement, before he started running fairly recently, he hadn't run RPGs since LG ended.
We have, a few times, had 3 tables go off. More commonly, right now, we have a barely legal table. This Saturday, from sign-ups, we have a GM and 4 players. The game on the schedule for next Saturday, however, is not yet legal, as we have a GM and two players signed up.
We have had 3 VCs in the area, apparently none currently, as the nearby VC lists only a suburb (or maybe it is considered a separate town? Not sure, moved here from elsewhere years ago) as his area of concern, and I have not seen any communication from him for quite some time now...
Our last VC, because the real life stuff that caused him to step down has eased off, is considering re-applying for the position. If he does, and gets it, the local scene should start to pick up again, as he did try to work with some of the local conventions that were in related areas that were not RPG cons. He also did what he could to support local public play.