So I was looking at Eldritch Archer Magus and realized... they can use guns with their arcane bond, spell combat, and spellstrike.
Normally guns are pretty terrible, but I can see some fun opportunities here with a dip into Spellslinger to really get that whole Outlaw Star caster gun feel, especially through Spell Blending to get Named Bullet, and now you got a pistol shot auto critting for x4, and a Disintegrate that auto crits at x3.
I'm sure there are plenty of better combos or uses, but that in particular sounded fun.
Thoughts? Does this seem doable? Highly considering something like this for an upcoming campaign down the line.
Spellslinger accomplishes everything but a way to clear the gun. The dip gets me x3 spell crits, gunsmithing, and ewp proficiency (firearms).
As for the MAD... Where is the wisdom coming in? DEX to hit, and INT for casting yea?
As for DEX to damage, the goal really is to have the spells do the damage, not so much the gun since I acknowledge how bad guns typically are. Alternatively, maybe my DM will allow Focused Shot? Also I thought Deadly Aim was ruled to not work with guns? Was this errated?
Not sure what you mean by losing out on crit chance though. Wouldn't it function the same? I suppose the real argument is does spellslingers x3 crit modifier override spellstrikes x2 modifier, but I see nothing about losing the threat range?
Deadly aim is explicitly stated to work with guns in the gun rules. The feat even works with the new technological firearms.
Deadly aim is explicitly stated to work with guns in the gun rules. The feat even works with the new technological firearms.
Ahh alright. I remember this being a pretty big issue back during the playtest. It has been a while since I've looked into this stuff.
WIS for in-combat gun clearing. You'll need a few points of actual grit laying around for the Quick Clear deed, regardless of what classes you use. You'll either need Amateur Gunslinger or an actual Gunslinger level. If your gun breaks and you can't clear it, you'll be left moping around as regular 2/3 caster, instead of an awesome 2/3 caster with a gun.By losing out on threat range, I mean that gun critical threat ranges are lousy, and one of the big draws is that spells get a really high crit chance on a shocking grasp scimitar dex magus.
You certainly have a point on the Quick Clear. The goal is to get Reliable on the weapon as fast as possible, which shouldn't be too difficult given half price crafting from arcane bond, but Spellslinger guns can break not only on a 1, but also if the target rolls a 20 on their save, so an alternative way to clear would certainly be beneficial.
Ahh I see what you mean now by the threat ranges, but this is ultimately in comparison to a bow using Eldritch Archer Magus, not a scimitar one. This is an Eldritch Archer build after all.
I'm not sure you can use the Spellslinger Arcane Gun ability with Spellstrike since you have to cast the spell through the gun (ie it is a range touch attack modified by the gun's enhancement).
Ranged Spellstrike requires you to use the normal firing rules of your ranged weapon and (in essence) attaching your range touch spell to the fired projectile.
I'm sure someone will find the loophole to make it work, but I think the intention is there.
You can use the Called trait for a free reroll on a natural 1 which helps a bit without grit.
If some DM lets this works, you are going to be incredibly feat starved (PBS, Precise Shot, Amateur Gunslinger all before getting Intensify). Along with the constant rules lawyering at the table (is a spellstriked scorching ray 20 ft range or 130 ft range?)
I'm not sure you can use the Spellslinger Arcane Gun ability with Spellstrike since you have to cast the spell through the gun (ie it is a range touch attack modified by the gun's enhancement).
Ranged Spellstrike requires you to use the normal firing rules of your ranged weapon and (in essence) attaching your range touch spell to the fired projectile.
I'm sure someone will find the loophole to make it work, but I think the intention is there.
You can use the Called trait for a free reroll on a natural 1 which helps a bit without grit.
If some DM lets this works, you are going to be incredibly feat starved (PBS, Precise Shot, Amateur Gunslinger all before getting Intensify). Along with the constant rules lawyering at the table (is a spellstriked scorching ray 20 ft range or 130 ft range?)
I thought about that but it seems fine to me? The gun itself is the casting implement, so by casting using the gun you should still able to spellstrike with it.
Also yes, it is feat intensive. My DM is highly considering combining Point Blank with Precise Shot into 1 feat though, which would help that significantly. Also with regards to the range of that, I'd wager it's based on the guns range, not the spells.
If you are playing homebrewed rules, have at it!
Just keep in mind that the combo you listed in the very first post is the very reason why any sane DM would not allow it (you are using two mechanics that deal with the same thing).
If you are playing homebrewed rules, have at it!
Just keep in mind that the combo you listed in the very first post is the very reason why any sane DM would not allow it (you are using two mechanics that deal with the same thing).
I could do the same thing really without Spellslinger honestly. Only difference is the Disintegrate would only crit for x2 rather than x3 and the save would be a bit lower.
The main benefit of Spellslinger is of course the gunsmithing, the free gun, the arcane gun enhancement bonus to hit and DCs, and the ewp proficiency. The x3 spell crit is really just icing on the cake.
Also a spellslinger can still cast spells without the gun, I'd just lose the x3 crit and enhancement bonus. So I could just choose to not use the arcane gun when doing spell combat or spellstrike etc if there truly was a RAW conflict. It doesn't change much really.
Pool ray magus arcana is what you want with this combo.
Not quite seeing the benefit honestly.
note..
BUT if you ever feel the need to dip in gunslinger. Siege Gunner. You gain INT to grit. Plus if you wanted that deed it switches out, so you can shoot past the icnrement at touch then before that dip get ameatur gunslinger and select that deed. when you take siege gunner elect to not switch it out.
Yea, this whole gunslinger dip is something I'd really rather avoid but it's certainly an option. At the moment though I'm clinging to Amateur gunslinger and a Reliable weapon to hopefully get by.
This is an excellent combination, and Myrmidarch with a gun has been around for a while. Named Bullet/Arcane Gun/Ranged Spellstrike works fine: you cast the spell through the gun, then you deliver the spell through the gun. The two abilities don't interfere with each other at all, and combined they give you spectacular automatic x3 touch attack crits with spells.
You might even want to consider dipping into Crossblooded Sorcerer (Orc/Draconic) for insanely powerful Snowballs.
That's what I figured. The Arcane Gun is the Arcane Bond of the Magus. They should work fine together, though as mentioned, I'm unsure if you can really bypass the x2 crit modifier since spellstrike deliberately states the spells are only x2 when used that way.
That is also tempting, but admittedly my DM would throw a fit if told him the character and then went "oh yea, he's also a crossblooded orc/draconic bloodline sorc", haha. Plus the dips hurt when you're starting at lvl 1 and I'm really trying to avoid them if I can. It's bad enough I gotta take Wizard for Spellslinger ya know?
So what do you guys think, how'd reach metamagic work with frostbite anyway? Could a character just ranged spell combat with it, and then keep applying it to the arrows? Sounds really useful if you also get rime.
You sure you didn't get the idea from a friendly, smart, handsome and above all else, humble anonymous user of an image board that discusses traditional games?
Frostbite is based on the creature touched. You could... shoot someone to give them Frostbite, but you can't make their melee touch attack gained from the spell, become a ranged one... I think?
Also yea, that may of had a part in this thread, haha.
Ya you may be right. Eitherway, x3 or x2 it's still probably gonna kill whatever it hits.
This DM already criticizes me for making super optimized characters. I disagree and just say I make my characters well with largely common sense choices. Like... playing half-orc with sacred tattoo and taking Fate's Favored. If you're playing a half-orc why wouldn't you do that, ya know?
At the moment I'm unsure when to dip Spellslinger. If I start with Magus then I get a masterwork revolver or pistol (depending on firearms in DMs homebrew), but not the proficiency, or gunsmithing. Spellslinger on the other hand gets me those, but also just a pistol, which can be made masterwork for 300gp. Spellslinger seems the smart option but it's tough to say no to a free masterwork revolver, though I can still ultimately get it at lvl 2. The problem which arises here is arcane gun and arcane bond. If my Spellslinger bond is the pistol, then when I get my Magus revolver, I need a way to get my arcane gun bond changed into the revolver.
If you use 3pp, Cabalist Eldritch Archer with a Mysterious Stranger dip is the ultimate build. Throw in Spellslinger later as you see fit.
Unless it's DSP, anything 3pp is highly unlikely. DSP stuff at least has some potential.
I actually did a lot of thinking along these lines, and I figured that the biggest barrier of entry to making a pure eldritch archer magus build is the issue of EWP requiring BaB +1. This means that you can't take it naturally until level 3. This is most certainly an issue because not having proficiency in a firearm also increases the misfire range by 4.
In addition to that, there's the issue of dipping simply being bad for an already lower progression caster, and if you're using standard BaB rules, you won't even have a +1 until level 3.
And finally, there's the issue of combining the arcane gun ability with ranged spellstrike. If I were a GM I would say that you can't use the same object twice at the same exact time. Since you're using the gun to shoot a spell, you can't also use the gun to deliver a spell on a bullet. I might allow it to work with a double barreled pistol (one barrel shoots the spell, the other shoots the pellet it rides on) but that's pushing it a little, in my opinion.
With that in mind, the final build I ended up with in terms of pure gun-wielding eldritch archer was...
Half elf- Take alternate racial trait for EWP firearms
Traits: Called, Magical lineage(Either scorching ray or snowball)
Feat(1)Gunsmithing
Feat(3)Rapid Reload
Feat(5)Amateur Gunslinger(Quick Clear)
Now, the feat slots for 1 and 3 are interchangable, but entirely dependent on what you want to accomplish. If you take rapid reload at 1 instead, then your spellstrike/spell combat combo is fully online at level 2, but you're guzzling gold. If you take rapid reload at 3, then it takes a while to come online, but you're not bankrupting yourself and can at least occupy the spell combat slots with self buffs, burning hands, maybe a true strike, etc. You can even deliver snowball as normal, not losing too much without using a bullet at this stage. Levels 7+ are literally whatever you want to do, such as intensified snowballs or empowered scorching rays.
As for MAD, I find that it's not hard to manage 14 wis, 16 INT, and the rest DEX. at 20pb you can have an array of 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8 that you would assign to INT, WIS, DEX, CON, STR, CHA respectively, then apply your racial bonus to DEX, as well as all your level up bonuses. One could alternatively say that all extras go into INT because touch AC isn't hard to hit, but I haven't run the numbers on that.
The problem here is you're missing point blank shot and precise shot. By not taking Spellslinger, and human, you're really holding up your feats, making an already feat intensive situation even worse.
I do agree with you about the MAD stat block, that's pretty similar to what I came up with as well.
The problem here is you're missing point blank shot and precise shot. By not taking Spellslinger, and human, you're really holding up your feats, making an already feat intensive situation even worse.
I do agree with you about the MAD stat block, that's pretty similar to what I came up with as well.
Taking half-elf is equivilant to taking human in this case, because manually taking EWP is a feat slot.
Magus actually gains a bonus feat at level 5, so that can at least be used to have point blank shot, then level 7 take precise shot, however I don't know if that's entirely necessary if you're constantly going against touch AC. You could also argue that because of the called trait, you can avoid amateur gunslinger until level 7 and take both PBS and precise shot at level 5, but that also feels too late.
I do agree that it's an awkward situation all-around. It's ultimately why I wouldn't build this character as a low-level character. I actually have a character concept that uses eldritch archer with a gun, but that's for a level 15 campaign. My biggest gripe from looking into this is that guns are an absolutely horrible set of weapons for literally anybody except those specialized in it to get all the feats for free. I think they should buff guns a little bit and in turn nerf those who use them normally.
I'd avoid Rapid Reload until you have iteratives and/or Haste. At lower levels, you'll be doing your damage through spells, no need for Spell Combat.
Spell combat + spellstrike means that at level 2, you're already taking two shots per full attack. That makes rapid reload pretty necessary. In addition, even at level 1, you still couldn't spell combat every round because it's a move action to reload otherwise.
I see what you're saying but the Spellslinger dip just seems so much better, and you aren't necessarily losing CL either since it's a Wizard, and the Arcane Gun, once thoroughly enhanced thanks to the Magus Arcane Bond, will help a lot with your spell DCs and bonuses.
The way I'm looking at this now is:
Human
Traits: Called, and... something else, maybe Magical Lineage for the Snowball
1 Spellslinger: EWP Firearms, Gunsmithing, Amateur Gunslinger (Quick Clear), Bonus Feat for Point Blank shot
2 Magus
3 Magus: Precise Shot or Rapid Reload
The build is basically running at lvl 3 at this point. I can definitely see the reasoning for skipping on Precise Shot though, given the hitting for Touch AC. This opens up to Intensify Spell at 5, and Deadly Aim at 6 from Magus bonus feat.
What about taking the first level as a simple gunslinger? It'd increase your BaB, get you your EWP, Gunsmithing, grit, and it'd open up an additional feat slot. It's worth mentioning that wizard 1 wouldn't provide much in terms of spellcasting, as it's stuck at caster level 1 and the spellslinger archetype trades away cantrips.
In addition, the dip would provide access to Deadeye, which really helps the limiting 20ft factor of the range.
I would say the gunslinger dip is definitely better, given that ranged spellstrike and arcane gun probably don't mix.
What about taking the first level as a simple gunslinger? It'd increase your BaB, get you your EWP, Gunsmithing, grit, and it'd open up an additional feat slot. It's worth mentioning that wizard 1 wouldn't provide much in terms of spellcasting, as it's stuck at caster level 1 and the spellslinger archetype trades away cantrips.
In addition, the dip would provide access to Deadeye, which really helps the limiting 20ft factor of the range.
I would say the gunslinger dip is definitely better, given that ranged spellstrike and arcane gun probably don't mix.
If arcane gun and ranged spellstrike really don't mix, then sure, going into gunslinger, or hell any other gun related archetype may be the better option. I'm doubtful on this though. Course, if we got this FAQed I'm sure Paizo would be terrible and just say Eldritch Archer can't use guns. They already banned the archetype from PFS on day 1 for some ungodly reason.
Did some thinking and here is what I've got.
Human
Traits: Still thinking
10 STR 16 DEX 12 CON 16 INT 14 WIS 8 CHA
1 Eldritch Archer Magus: Arcane Bond (Mwk Revolver or whatever gun I can convince the DM to give me), Arcane Pool (4), Amateur Gunslinger, Point Blank Shot
We buy a cheap light crossbow, and just sit on our gun until lvl 2, since we can still spell combat with the crossbow.
2 Spellslinger Wizard: EWP Firearms, Arcane Gun, Gunsmithing
At this point using our gun should be a bit safer. We now have the proficiency, and the gunsmithing to fix it if we need to after a break, as well as craft our own ammunition. We even get the added benefit of getting a second gun for free for emergencies.
3 Magus: Ranged Spellstrike, Far Shot or Precise Shot or Rapid Reload, all have their purpose, but probably Rapid Reload.
Here is where we get to shoot Snowballs at people.
4 Magus: Arcana: Familiar?
5 Magus: Deadly Aim?
The issue is definitely being stuck with no bonus to damage for the gun in the early levels. In the meantime, we have Snowball and Ray of Enfeeblement shenanigans, and can at the very least always tack on an extra 1d3 of acid or cold damage. Arcane Strike is probably a solid candidate as well. Once we reach lvl 9 we grab Reach Spellstrike and that opens up the wonderful world of all those melee touch spells as well, or alternatively we can grab the Reach Spell feat and get that a bit earlier, at the cost of the metamagic spell increase.
Course, if we got this FAQed I'm sure Paizo would be terrible and just say Eldritch Archer can't use guns. They already banned the archetype from PFS on day 1 for some ungodly reason.What about taking the first level as a simple gunslinger? It'd increase your BaB, get you your EWP, Gunsmithing, grit, and it'd open up an additional feat slot. It's worth mentioning that wizard 1 wouldn't provide much in terms of spellcasting, as it's stuck at caster level 1 and the spellslinger archetype trades away cantrips.
In addition, the dip would provide access to Deadeye, which really helps the limiting 20ft factor of the range.
I would say the gunslinger dip is definitely better, given that ranged spellstrike and arcane gun probably don't mix.
The people who answer FAQs are different than the people who determine what is allowed in PFS.
But also, Player Companion materials unfortunately do not often get FAQs/errata.
The people who answer FAQs are different than the people who determine what is allowed in PFS.But also, Player Companion materials unfortunately do not often get FAQs/errata.
Lets hope that means it's safe to say arcane gun, spell combat, and spellstrike all nicely work together then.