So, I've been debating with a Skill Monkey that can be quite useful in melee combat. The 3 level dip of an Unchained Rogue is almost a given considering, with the 8 Skill Points/Level, the Finnesse Training, the Trapfinding, Evasion, etc., it makes for a great foundation to build a Skill Monkey upon. Plus the Sneak Attack isn't too much to balk at for the level. Tack on making it Dexterity based, and you got yourself the makings of a Skill Monkey. (And when I say Skill Monkey, I'm not really referring to Face skills, such as Diplomacy. Maybe Bluff, and even that is iffy.)
But I'm having a divergence between a Skirmisher Guide Ranger and a standard Slayer. (I've considered archetypes for Slayer, but losing talents is a real damper, since Ranger Combat Styles are really nice to have.) Both have great merits, and I'm not sure which would be the best. On one hand, Slayer has the Studied Target feature, as well as scaling Sneak Attack (though not as good as a Rogue, it's still nice), and some Talents. On the other, the Skirmisher Guide Ranger has some very powerful and unique abilities that can be used.
I'm also having a problem between which weapon to use. On the one hand, using Two Light Shields makes me extremely durable, granting me increased AC, (and with access to Shield Master thanks to talents, I can nullify TWF penalties), and I can get the feats that I want to make it work (though there are more feats this way). On the other hand, using Kukris gives me 18-20/X2 critical multipliers, and Crit-Fishing is perhaps the #1 way for Dexterity builds to deal their damage. Another option is going for the likes of an Elven Curved Blade and choose the Elf race, if only to save myself a feat, and this gives me 1.5x Dexterity on damage, but then my Ranger Combat Styles lose their usefulness (since a Two-Handed Weapon style gets crappy feat selections), though I could just pick up some Bow feats on the fly so I can be a threat at both range and melee. I would otherwise be Human, and get a +2 to 2 ability scores (though the Feat and Skill Point/level may be useful, considering).
So, here's the projected plan, assuming Human, 20 Pt. Buy, and I'm going a TWF route:
Strength - 10
Dexterity - 18 + 2 = 20 (17)
Constitution - 12 + 2 = 14 (2)
Intelligence - 13 (3)
Wisdom - 12 (2)
Charisma - 7 (+4)
Unchained Rogue 3/Slayer (or Ranger) 17
Traits: Cookie Cutter? (Reactionary + Indomitable Faith)
Feats (* = Bonus):
1*. Weapon Finesse
1. Two-Weapon Fighting
2*. Piranha Strike (Talent)
3. Combat Reflexes
5*. Quick Draw (Combat Style)
5. Fast Learner
7. Improved Initiative
9*. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat Style)
9. Improved Critical
11. Hammer the Gap
13*-20. Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, ???
So, presuming Kukris, we're looking, at by 3rd level (which the build will basically be online at), a +4 to hit, dealing 1D4 + 7 (or 3) points of damage, average 9 (or 5), making it 14 DPR. Tacking on 2D6 Sneak (with an average of 7 damage) takes us to an average of 16 (or 12) damage, combining together to make 28 DPR, which isn't horrible since we're primarily a Skill Monkey. Of course, having an 18-20/X2 modifier really seals the deal here, since some of those attacks will be doubled, increasing our average DPR to 28 (42 with Sneak Attack). And since we will be taking the remaining levels in a Full BAB class, the DPR will only scale linearly (mostly) with the other Martials.
AC will be sitting at approximately 18 at 3rd level, and 15 Touch AC, which is decent enough. Saving Throws will be 3 Fortitude, 8 Reflex, and 2 Will as a base. Could be better, but such is the price when you don't have a Good scaling Will Save. (Fortitude will increase much more though.)
Finally, Skills:
(8 X 3) + (7 X 17) = 24 + 119 = 143 Skill Points total
Acrobatics MAX
Disable Device MAX
Perception MAX
Use Magic Device MAX
Survival MAX
Stealth MAX
Disguise MAX
Climb 1
Swim 1
Knowledge (Local) 1
Some critique and advice, especially in class choice, weapon selection, feat progression, skill point allocation, etc. would be appreciated. (Especially the skills, because I'm fairly certain I'm lacking some insights there.)
Bard.
Sorry, but Bard just does it better.
Bard is a better face, since he's Charisma-focused, and has some improvisation, given the ability to make Skill Checks untrained and gets all class skills. They can be a little more consistent, with the Taking 10 stuff, but that's about all I'm seeing. They also can't disarm magical traps and such unless you go Archaeologist (which is also something they can't do right away, either), on top of that, they aren't particularly competent melee combatants unless you select another archetype, and even that is iffy.
Even with the Human Skill Point and a FCB, they aren't really winning out in the Skill Points department either.
You're gonna have to pull something major out of your hat to convince me otherwise it seems.
Empiricist Investigator is my recommendation, maybe with 1 level of inspired blade swashbuckler.
Reason is that you get 6+int mod with int being your casting stat and other stuff tied to it. And it makes like all the skills int based.
Heightened awareness helps your knowledge skills and perception. Then at lv4 you alchemical allocation a potion of heroism to get a +2 to all your saves, attacks and skills. Plus you get trapfinding just like the rogue.
Then you can go with a decent str and str mutagen and studied combat or go dex and the swash dip with dex mutagen and fencing grace and studied combat.
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Sandman Bard does magical traps at first, Detective Bard at second, Archivist Bard at second, and Archaeologist Bard at second.
Anyone with a rank in Disable Device can disable non-magical traps, and if the DM is throwing magical traps at you at first level, then he/she is just a jerk, throwing things at way inappropriate CRs at you.
You are dead anyway if that's happening.
Oooh, yeah. Empiricist Investigator is a good choice too.
Third for Empiricist Investigator. Pretty much the ultimate skill monkey. Extremely powerful in combat, and you know pretty much everything, and you get an extra 1d6 for free on every knowledge check too.
Empiricist Investigator is my recommendation, maybe with 1 level of inspired blade swashbuckler.
Reason is that you get 6+int mod with int being your casting stat and other stuff tied to it. And it makes like all the skills int based.
Heightened awareness helps your knowledge skills and perception. Then at lv4 you alchemical allocation a potion of heroism to get a +2 to all your saves, attacks and skills. Plus you get trapfinding just like the rogue.
Then you can go with a decent str and str mutagen and studied combat or go dex and the swash dip with dex mutagen and fencing grace and studied combat.
Or dip one level of Mutagenic Mauler (brawler archetype) to have early access to the mutagen which stacks with the Empiricist levels.
Or dip one level of Mutagenic Mauler (brawler archetype) to have early access to the mutagen which stacks with the Empiricist levels.
I wouldn't recommend it, investigators biggest issue is how slow they are to get running. You want to reach lvl 4-5 as fast as you can. Pushing those further down the line is more trouble than it's worth if you ask me. Arguably the only "benefit" is you can plan to get Quick Study at the same time you get Studied Combat, so you don't suffer through a level of move-action studied combat.
1 level in brawler gives you a 10 minute mutagen for 3 levels, a better unarmed strike, and a bump to fort saves.
1 level inspired blade swash gives you weapon focus rapier and weapon finesse for rapier (putting you 1 feat away from dex to damage with rapier), a panache pool (probably int +1) to parry and riposte with and derring do with.
Both give you a faster BAB and a bit more hp.
Both delay your investigator mutagen till lv4 and studied combat till lv5.
I know the OP said he wasn't interested in Face skills, but there are some ways to shift them from CHA to INT if he wants.
Traits:
- Clever Wordplay (Social): Changes any one CHA skill fully over to INT. You could use this with Use Magic Device if you want, but Pragmatic Activator (a Magic trait) does the same thing
- Student of Philosophy (Social): Changes Diplomacy (only to persuade others) and Bluff (only to convince others that a lie is true) to INT
- Bruising Intellect (Social): Changes Intimidate to INT and makes it a class skill
Feat: Orator (Requires Skill Focus: Linguistics):
"You can use a Linguistics check in place of a Bluff check to tell a falsehood or conceal information, in place of a Diplomacy check to change the attitude of a creature, or in place of an Intimidate check to force a creature to cooperate."
Two feats is a pretty high price, but it does give you essentially four skills for the price of one — Great for any prospective skillmonkey. Bonus for Investigators: Linguistics is one of the skills they can use Inspiration on without expending it. Plus, Linguistics counts as a Background Skill if you're using those rules from Unchained.
Archaeologist Bard is strong. I'm playing one and up to level 4 or so he was the hardest hitting in the party due to his natural attack routine. The skill tricks and spells the Bard gets are also amazing. Heroism is just soooo amazing for skills and combat and stacks with archaeologists luck.
Ranger or Slayer are both fine options but don't mesh well with 3 levels of Rogue as the big trump both of these classes have is combat style which sort of looses it's appaeal when you are getting feats later than normal instead of earlier.
Also I believe two combat styles for Rangers/Slayers are superior to others. Archery because it's just the best and leaves you with DEX as your main stat which is important for skilled characters and two handing a Spiked Heavy Shield due to combining the damage output of TH (and more due to shield slam+spiked destroyer) with the defenses of a sword and board build. Also Shield Slam at level 2 is really overpowered and provides you with awesome battlefield control.
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Any bard can disable magical traps. It just takes a trait and a spell known.
Trait: Vagabond Child: Disable Device is now a class skill.
Level 2 bard spell: Aram Zey's Focus: You can now disable magic traps.
Human Bard
Strength 12
Dexterity 17
Constitution 14
Intelligence 14
Wisdom 7
Charisma 14
Traits: Vagabond Child, Reactionary
Feet's :
Human:Weapon Finesse
1:Fast Learner
3:Lingering Performance
5:Improved Initiative
7:Two Weapon Fighting
9:Improved Two Weapon Fighting
11:Discordant Voice
Skill Ranks 6 + 2 Int Mod +1 Human +1 Favored Class = 10 Per level
Total skill ranks at 20 = 200 and you get a minim of two skills that count as 4, and bonus to all knowledge skills you have one rank in.
Versatile Performance: Oratory (Diplomacy, Sense Motive)
Versatile Performance: Act (Bluff, Disguise)
Bardic Knowledge: +1/2 your level to all knowledge skills you have ranks in.
I know the OP said he wasn't interested in Face skills, but there are some ways to shift them from CHA to INT if he wants.
Traits:
- Clever Wordplay (Social): Changes any one CHA skill fully over to INT. You could use this with Use Magic Device if you want, but Pragmatic Activator (a Magic trait) does the same thing
- Student of Philosophy (Social): Changes Diplomacy (only to persuade others) and Bluff (only to convince others that a lie is true) to INT
- Bruising Intellect (Social): Changes Intimidate to INT and makes it a class skillFeat: Orator (Requires Skill Focus: Linguistics):
"You can use a Linguistics check in place of a Bluff check to tell a falsehood or conceal information, in place of a Diplomacy check to change the attitude of a creature, or in place of an Intimidate check to force a creature to cooperate."Two feats is a pretty high price, but it does give you essentially four skills for the price of one — Great for any prospective skillmonkey. Bonus for Investigators: Linguistics is one of the skills they can use Inspiration on without expending it. Plus, Linguistics counts as a Background Skill if you're using those rules from Unchained.
Or, just be a Scout Kitsune Trickster. Int goes into a lot of skills that way, and personally I think the social skills are some of the best in the game so you can do some nuts things with an Unchained Scout Kitsune Trickster. They aren't half bad at combat neither.
@Calganar: I myself have built a Bard with 7 WIS but I don't think I'd ever do it again. Perception is the most important skill in the game sucking at it makes you not only lousy at finding traps but a lousy skill monkey.
Also another great feat for any would be skill monkey is deific Obedience Irori. One feat for +4 to all Knowledge Skills is just flat amazing. While I play mostly PFS here knowledge skills are extremely important and in sum you prolly make more knowledge skill rolls than perception checks.
I know the OP said he wasn't interested in Face skills, but there are some ways to shift them from CHA to INT if he wants.
Traits:
- Clever Wordplay (Social): Changes any one CHA skill fully over to INT. You could use this with Use Magic Device if you want, but Pragmatic Activator (a Magic trait) does the same thing
- Student of Philosophy (Social): Changes Diplomacy (only to persuade others) and Bluff (only to convince others that a lie is true) to INT
- Bruising Intellect (Social): Changes Intimidate to INT and makes it a class skillFeat: Orator (Requires Skill Focus: Linguistics):
"You can use a Linguistics check in place of a Bluff check to tell a falsehood or conceal information, in place of a Diplomacy check to change the attitude of a creature, or in place of an Intimidate check to force a creature to cooperate."Two feats is a pretty high price, but it does give you essentially four skills for the price of one — Great for any prospective skillmonkey. Bonus for Investigators: Linguistics is one of the skills they can use Inspiration on without expending it. Plus, Linguistics counts as a Background Skill if you're using those rules from Unchained.
Yeah, just stay Unchained Rogue. Canny Tumble and Circling Mongoose make sure you do sneak attack every round. Combine with two-weapon fighting and Wizards will be jealous at the amount of d6's you get to roll.
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Any bard can disable magical traps. It just takes a trait and a spell known.
Trait: Vagabond Child: Disable Device is now a class skill.
Level 2 bard spell: Aram Zey's Focus: You can now disable magic traps.
Thanks for the information on the spell, Aram Zey's focus! I will take that for my bard, Jasmine, who keeps getting locked up in scenarios, and started picking up disable device, skeleton key, and adamantine wire cutters as a result...
The ability to disarm magical traps is really not that important.
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@Calganar: I myself have built a Bard with 7 WIS but I don't think I'd ever do it again. Perception is the most important skill in the game sucking at it makes you not only lousy at finding traps but a lousy skill monkey.
Their is a way around every thing if you look for it. This is the perception skill of my level 12 PFSP bard. I have learned one thing form playing 3.5, and pathfinder. Ability mod matter much less after your level 6 or higher. They still count but the over all effect on a skill is much less. When compared to how many ranks you put in to that skill.
Perception Level 12: Ranks 12 + Wis Mod -2 + Class Skill 3 + Competence Bonus 5 = 18Eyes of the Eagle: Competency Bonus to perception +5 2,500 gold This was gained at level 4 or 5.
Acute Senses: Competence Bonus +15 = 32 (1 minite per level)
Sandman Bard does magical traps at first, Detective Bard at second, Archivist Bard at second, and Archaeologist Bard at second.
Anyone with a rank in Disable Device can disable non-magical traps, and if the DM is throwing magical traps at you at first level, then he/she is just a jerk, throwing things at way inappropriate CRs at you.
You are dead anyway if that's happening.
Oooh, yeah. Empiricist Investigator is a good choice too.
Archaeologist cannot disable magical traps until 6th level:
At 6th level, an archaeologist can take 10 on Disable Device checks, even if distracted or endangered, and can disarm magical traps
I'll concede the others, though they're not really as strong in melee as my current build would be, regardless of choice. They will be lacking to-hit and damage, not to mention the amount of attacks they would possess/ And if Magical Traps aren't really that important, then I suppose I can do without the class feature, but having Evasion and Finesse Training is really the key reasons for my Rogue dip, especially if I plan to TWF, or use an Elven Curved Blade.
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Hmmm...Empiricist Investigator seems interesting, but I'm not convinced it would be worth dipping into. At best, it gives me +3 on UMD, and +2 on Perception/Sense Motive. I'd actually technically lose out on Disable Device, given that I'm at 20 Dexterity to start, and there would be no point going Empiricist for the trap stuff if I can already get that with the Rogue, not to mention I wouldn't get Finesse Training and such.
The trait selections seem like a step in the right direction to help with competence. The "UMD becomes Intelligence" one will be very important, as that's the +3 I can expect from dipping Empiricist, the biggest reason I'd bother doing that. I could probably dump the +2 Initiative and pick it up later, since I'll still be rocking a +5 to Initiative starting out.
Maybe I'm putting too much stock into the "Not full BAB = Not competent in melee" bit. I mean, my guy is only 1 BAB behind, and even I feel like that's a punch to the gut. Though I will say that a Bard with Inspired Courage and such going is about the equivalent of a standard Martial, but the point of this exercise is to make a Skill Monkey who is just barely less competent than a standard Martial.
I might not also be 100% inclined as to understand what it is a Skill Monkey is supposed to cover with his skills, I just figured it'd be typical Rogue stuff, such as finding/disarming traps and doors, being a stealthy scout, having some (but not all) knowledges, etc. If it's supposed to be something more, then some enlightenment in that regard would be appreciated.
Bards, Inquisitors, Investigators, Rangers, Skalds and Slayers can be amazing melee combatants and skill monkeys.
Just their buff spells are enough to make them (and the whole party, in some cases) a much greater threat in combat.
Honestly, anything with 4+ skill points can be a decent skill monkey. I've both seen and played more than a few skilled Druids and Barbarians (Urban Barbarian's focus on Dex really help).
Don't focus too much on disarming magical traps... Far more often than not, you'll be able to come up with a way to circunvent them anyway... Oftentimes it's as simple as sending a summoned critter to trigger it while the party watches from a safe distance. :)
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I will say that a Bard with Inspired Courage and such going is about the equivalent of a standard Martial, but the point of this exercise is to make a Skill Monkey who is just barely less competent than a standard Martial.
Take Unchained Rogue to 4th level for the dibilitating injury. Take slayer the rest of the way.
Bards are only better skill monkeys if you can use their versatile performance to get the 3 for 1 in skills you use. If you don't care about the social skills, they aren't as good. Slayer gets 6 base skills, ranger only gets 4. Investigators are extremely strong at skills, but lag when it comes to combat.
Go unchained rogue 4 and the rest Slayer. Better BAB gives you the multiple attacks and you are getting the skills you want. Straight Slayer is better for a Strength build, but that isn't what you posted.
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Bards can be combat capable the problem is. You have to look at all of what the bard is doing not just the raw numbers.
Inspire Courage, and Good Hope are my go to buffs for the first round.
Total Bonus: To Hit +5, Damage +5 +1D6 Sonic , Save VS. Fear +3, All other saves +2, and Skill Checks +2.
My PFSP Bard at level 12. Mithral Rapier +1 Holy Mithral Dagger +1 Holy
Before buffs
Rapier 15/10 1D6+3+2D6 holy Dagger 15/10 1D4+2+2D6 holy
Inspire Courage, and Good Hope
Rapier 20/15 1D6+8+1d6 sonic+2D6 holy Dagger 20/15 1D4+7+1D6 sonic+2D6 holy
Not saying bards are for every one. Just saying they can do thing most people miss. They are very versatile when you build them that way. Bards will not be as good as full BAB class in their group. Because the same buffs that the bard uses to get on par with them make them that much better. I have full attacked a monster one time with improved two weapon fighting. It was at level 9 and inflicted 87 points of damage. Not because I try and avoid fights. It's because after group buffs go up the first round theirs not much left on round two.
I think it also really boils down to how you define competent both in terms of combat viability and in terms of skills.
Honestly 99% of my characters are built with this goal in mind but I tend to prioritize differently from case to case. However I tend to first look at combat capacities (something that can not be assessed merely by a DPR figure) and then look at how I can make such a build not suck outside of combat. This usually comes down to not Dumping INT, not picking up classes with 2 skill points per level or a sucky class skill list and possibly looking to pick up abilities or spells that help me on skill rolls.
In actual play I find that while I usually contribute well to encounters I wish I had even more skills or more utility talents that help with skills as in PFS skills tend to be more crucial to success than martial prowess as everyone is always optimizing for combat and ends up with INT 7 CHA 7 murder hobos more often than not.
The examples provided above by Lemmy are actually very good ones as particularly Barbarian is fairly SAD and requires few feats or Stat points to be truly efficient and thus allows you to branch out a bit in order to be able to contribute out of combat. One archetype I recently discovered which is very well suited to this role is the Savage Technologist. You get STR and DEX bonuses to Rage and no penalty to AC and still have your Bonus to WIL giving you awesome survivability and Damage output for practically no investement from level 1. Additionally it also has by far the best Class Skill list of any 4+INT Skill classes and thus a human with 12 INT makes for a really good Skill Monkey all the while being a above parr front liner with Power Attack and a Breastplate.
Hmmm...Empiricist Investigator seems interesting, but I'm not convinced it would be worth dipping into. At best, it gives me +3 on UMD, and +2 on Perception/Sense Motive. I'd actually technically lose out on Disable Device, given that I'm at 20 Dexterity to start, and there would be no point going Empiricist for the trap stuff if I can already get that with the Rogue, not to mention I wouldn't get Finesse Training and such.
Maybe I'm putting too much stock into the...
You never "dip" into investigator. As mentioned, it's a slow bumpy ride, but once you're 4-5 it's pretty much amazing full-stop. You don't need the BAB with Studied Combat, and you certainly won't need Rogue.
Again, I don't plan to be a Party Face, if the evidence of dumping Charisma was obvious enough (though getting traits to alter Charisma-based skills that I have to invest in is a solid idea). To me, being a Party Face is not synonymous with being a Skill Monkey; maybe to others, that's the case, but I'll go ahead and get it out there that I don't plan to accomplish that with this build.
Disarming Magical Traps I know isn't the be-all end-all, but it's definitely something that I should invest in if I claim to be a competent Skill Monkey. After all, most traps have a Reset trigger, so using typical "Send in the cannonfodder" strategies would not be fool-proof.
I'm not saying Bards are bad, or can't contribute. I'm just saying in comparison to Martials, they aren't really that effective, and that their contributions go far beyond their melee capabilities, which includes their spellcasting and their Bardic Performance. Honestly, I find a Bard's best melee contributions is being an Aid Another Lackey, considering they can, if spec'd right, add upwards of +10 to attacks and AC, half of that to damage, have ridiculous AC and Saves, and still have full Caster Levels if they dip 2 levels Paladin, for example.
The Debilitating Injury isn't bad, since I can effectively give myself (and everyone else) an extra +2 to hit a given enemy that I Sneak Attack (though until that happens, I'm still down another BAB). It would also make me more inclined to go with a Slayer build to capitalize on Sneak Attack (and the scaling with that isn't bad at all), so it is definitely something to consider.
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I've managed to do pretty well with a PFS build that will eventually be Hunter 8/Rogue 4. I'll hit level 12 with just over 105 skill points and due to flanking shenanigans doing about 7d6+12 a hit, and 11d6+36 on a crit (17-20x3). My hit bonuses could be better, but I do well enough at level 8 with a +14.
He also has a good chance of finding and disarming most traps (+15 or so for both at level 8), and has a mess of good buffing or (mostly)save-free control spells (go go spike growth!). I've gotten mine and my animal companion's AC up to 26/25 respectively, and hope to get it to 30+/~28 soon.
What's really amusing is I never planned the build out. I initially was going to make a straight hunter, but ended up triggering half a dozen traps over 3 scenarios in a row, so I figured he would, in character, seek out some training along those lines. He's turning out to be really effective in most situations...
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If you go empirisist investigator inspired blade once you have your 5th level and get studied strike and quick study there is one dip I would consider. Drunken brute unchained barabrian. You get +2 to hit, +2 to damage, +2 to will, improved fort from the barbarian level, drink potions as a move action, unlimited rages per day if you take sips from a flask, and 2xHD temp hit point each fight.
So a standard first turn looks like this if you are caught unprepared.
Free action rage, swift studied combat, standard mutagen, move what ever potion you keep in you hand.
If you are prepared you will heroism up through alchemical allocation, and mutagen up.
Then you rage, swift study, potion (reduce person is nice for dex character, extract (shield, long arm what ever).
No character I have ever build has a one round buff like this one has.
If you have the 3 levels of unchained Rogue, or are planning your build around them, I'd go with Slayer for the rest. If you are flexible on those 3 levels, I will also encourage a look at an Investigator. You get some healthy buffs from Extracts and studied combat.
rogues have no in class accuracy boost for their first hit, but they do have some for second+ hits, but you need two attacks in a round to take advantage of it.
Investigators have mutagen +2, heroism +2, and studied combat +1/2 level.
Here's my empiricist investigator.
16+2/13+1 at 4/14/16/7+1 at 8/7 half-elf with dual mind.
I use a longspear.
at lv 1-2 I'm at +4/5 for 1d8+6 damage.
at lv 3 I'm at +8 for 1d8+9 damage.
at lv 4 I'm at +11 for 1d8+9 damage because I alchemical allocation potion of heroism.
at lv 5 I'm at +13 for 1d8+11 damage with studied combat.
plus I have enlarge as a standard action if I want that for a fight.
at all levels you can use 2 inspiration on you attack to add 1d6 to the roll.
I'm going half-elf FCB so that I get +1/4 on all inspiration rolls, so at lv4 I add 1d6+1 with it.
I'm getting 9 skill points a level.
my knowledge skills are 1rank +3class+3int+2heightened awareness+2heroism+1d6+1 =+1d6+12 at lv4.
perception is a +13 with half-elf bonus at lv4 with 1 rank.
disable device is +11 at lv4 with 1 rank.
UMD is at +9 at lv4 with 1 rank.
And these numbers are before any magic items.
You can also get an inspired weapon instead of a + and have your inspiration only cost 1 to add to attack rolls. And then at lv9 when you pick up combat inspiration talent, with an inspired weapon you add your inspiration roll to attack and twice that to damage. My half-elf will be adding 1d8+2 to attack rolls and 2d8+4 to damage rolls at lv9 for 1 inspiration.
A fighter's combat numbers with 18 str are
at lv 1-3 I'm at +6/7/8 for 2d6+6 damage assuming weapon focus lv1.
at lv 4 I'm at +9 for 2d6+8.
at lv 5 I'm at +11 for 2d6+9.
you get more accuracy at lv8 and an accuracy and damage at lv9.
with power attack you're looking at
Investigator
at lv 3 +7 for 1d8+12
at lv 4 +10 for 1d8+12
at lv 5 +12 for 1d8+14
at lv 6 +12 for 1d8+17
fighter
at lv 1-3 I'm at +5/6/7 for 2d6+9 damage assuming weapon focus lv1.
at lv 4 I'm at +7 for 2d6+14.
at lv 5 I'm at +9 for 2d6+15.
Your rogue is just it's bab+5 and a -2 if you're twf. after your first hit at lv4 you other hits gets a +4 to it though, if you are able to increase the duration of your debilitating strike.
your damage is 1d6+5 x2 and each sneak attack die adds about 3.5 damage. so you can use that number when comparing best situation damage for your rouge.
And your dex skills are about the same since you don't have heroism and my knowledge crush yours.
This is my proposal for going a str Empiricist Investigator.
Why STR Empiricist Investigators are amazing.
Pretty much exactly what he said.
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Swashigator will dominate any rogue at the SKill role.
Swashigator is 1 Level Inspired Blade Swashbuckler/Rest in Emp. Investigator.
About Disarming Magical traps. At level 1 you wont see magical traps...a perception check can find traps and alternative means can set them off/disarm them.
*You see a bear trap. You take a 4 foot stick you find on the ground and jam it on the trigger plate. Trap is set off and no one is hurt* Traps at level 1 are pretty basic as Bear traps, Trip lines, or Pits.
Take the Trait student of Philosophy and you can use INT for your face skills.
After a Swashigator I recommend a Bard with the trap finding trait. Which will out perform the Rogue in and out of Combat.
Plus the Sneak Attack isn't too much to balk at
I always Bulk at SA as a inferior damage type. It is inconsistent and situational.
If your human you suffer from Lighting conditions. Anything Dim light or lower shuts off SA.
SA is also shut down by certain enemy types.
When it comes to Skill classes rogue is still outclassed by:
Bard, skald, Inquisitor, Investigator, and alchemist.
Slayer might get less skills but still is a better character all around.
Then the Rogue makes its appearance.
Why STR Empiricist Investigators are amazing.Pretty much exactly what he said.
Except the original poster indicated he wanted a Dex based character.
Anything Dim light or lower shuts off SA.
Off topic, but if you're using Unchained Sneak Attack, Dim Light no longer does that (though Dark and other things are still an issue, Fog etc).
On topic. +1 Swashtigator or the Psychic Searcher Lore Oracle.
If your human you suffer from Lighting conditions. Anything Dim light or lower shuts off SA.
For everything except the Unchained Rogue.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with total concealment.
Note only total concealment prevents the unchained rogue sneak attack. With all the other sneak attacks, anything giving 20% or more concealment would prevent it.
Except the original poster indicated he wanted a Dex based character.Why STR Empiricist Investigators are amazing.Pretty much exactly what he said.
The OP wanted a "Skill monkey" that was "Competent in combat". And his original idea for that was going 3 levels of URogue and using dex. if you're going URogue you'd probably want a high dex.
But just going with the OP's original stated goal, a Str investigator meets the bill. Plus you can go dex based investigator if you wanted to.|
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Anything Dim light or lower shuts off SA.
Off topic, but if you're using Unchained Sneak Attack, Dim Light no longer does that (though Dark and other things are still an issue, Fog etc).
On topic. +1 Swashtigator or the Psychic Searcher Lore Oracle.
That is true about the Unrogue but Darkness is very common. And human struggles to overcome it. At least more magical classes can overcome it in multiple ways. My favorite is Alter Self or Darkvision. As it is better to adapt to the Darkness rather than changing the Darkness level.
Except the original poster indicated he wanted a Dex based character.Why STR Empiricist Investigators are amazing.Pretty much exactly what he said.
I wouldn't be opposed to going Strength-based, but then I will have to A. Abandon any semblance of TWF and take a Two-handed Weapon because you can't TWF worth a damn unless you have 20+ Dexterity because pre-requisites, and B. throw out melee survivability, since every save that I have is going to suck, as well as my AC, which brings me back to the point of playing my Arcane Duelist Bard with the 2 level Paladin Dip serving as an Aid Another jockey, and that means that I wouldn't even be a Martial character.
I'm also going to be Buff-dependant, because in rounds where I'm not able to buff, that means I'm a liability (and also very inaccurate), because if you notice, every one of these builds that everyone is proposing with Investigators and Bards, require you to spend time before (or during) combat to put yourself at the level of what appears to be an unbuffed Fighter. Which isn't bad, and is competent, but you're looking at 2-3 rounds of buffing before you're contributing to combat, and most combats are supposed to be over by the time Round 3 shows up. So I'm basically wasting time buffing for 2 or 3 rounds of combat that the regular martials could've just cleaned up anyway. Or the Martials are dead because I'm not already there helping kill the enemy. It's just stupid.
I've played with a player who does that. (They still do, and with their current situations, I think they have every right to.) I understand his caution, because he doesn't like to leave things to chance, and neither do I. But I can guarantee you that combats would be ended much quicker if he didn't spend 4-5 rounds buffing before actually engaging for a single attack that probably didn't need to happen because the other party members would've killed them anyway.
Just as well, Dexterity plays a huge role in AC for those who aren't wearing full armor. (Except Barbarians, but they get the green card because Invulnerable Rager.) And if I'm not Dexterity-based, then my AC is going to suck, and is going to double-suck because I'm lacking the Dexterity to back up the fact that I have junk armor and D8 Hit Dice. Any smart enemy is going to attack me first, especially if I can apparently deal competent damage, because a Fighter is going to be more durable and have some better armor. Reflex Saves, which are supposed to be my forte, also go into the garbage, and defeats the purpose of abilities such as Evasion.
Not to mention, if I do go for a character such as a Bard or Investigator, I become so damn MAD that you'd think I'd have a Rage spell permanencied on my person, and if I did want to make it work, Point Buy wouldn't be the answer.
Also, I'm not worried about light or vision issues. A 75 GP item specifically crafted solves that problem, and if an enemy is using Deeper Darkness, then quite frankly everyone else would be blind too. I understand that Sneak Attack isn't really a great way to accomplish dealing damage, but quite frankly, if every single competent Martial class weren't left with 2-4 Skill Points/level, not to mention the most horrid class skills ever, then maybe I'd find another alternative to the UCRogue/Slayer combo, because let's face it: Sneak Attack is the only decent damage-dealing class feature available to Skill Monkeys.
Str investigoator was a 20 point buy, I feel it wasn't mad at all, you really just need str and int with passable dex on con. Plus your ac is chain+4, mutagen+2, barkskin+2scaling, dex+2.
My AC is generally the highest of the party. (though I am in mithral breastplate with a trait for another +2), plus if you really need it you have a short duration shield spell available.
All the buffs I listed before are long duration. at lv4 they are 40minute long buffs. and you can have 2 of them prepared in your extracts and it's 1 hour between mutagens. so that's at least 80 minutes of good uptime a day.
But maybe that's not long enough for you. It's never been an issue for me but perhaps your games are different.
The swashtigator is dex based, and gets mutagen to help it's AC even more. The investigator has a good will save so that's better than the rogue, and with heroism your saves are all better than the rogues. good ref+5 compared to good ref+2+2 yeah, your reflex saves are still good.
But hey, if it's not a good fit then go your unchained rogue with maybe some slayer if you feel that's more to your combat preferences. Or just go straight slayer and do str based 2wf.
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I'm also going to be Buff-dependant, because in rounds where I'm not able to buff, that means I'm a liability (and also very inaccurate), because if you notice, every one of these builds that everyone is proposing with Investigators and Bards, require you to spend time before (or during) combat to put yourself at the level of what appears to be an unbuffed Fighter. Which isn't bad, and is competent, but you're looking at 2-3 rounds of buffing before you're contributing to combat, and most combats are supposed to be over by the time Round 3 shows up. So I'm basically wasting time buffing for 2 or 3 rounds of combat that the regular martials could've just cleaned up anyway. Or the Martials are dead because I'm not already there helping kill the enemy. It's just stupid.
I've played with a player who does that. (They still do, and with their current situations, I think they have every right to.) I understand his caution, because he doesn't like to leave things to chance, and neither do I. But I can guarantee you that combats would be ended much quicker if he didn't spend 4-5 rounds buffing before actually engaging for a single attack that probably didn't need to happen because the other party members would've killed them anyway.
A few things:
1: Reach builds can compensate by getting AoOs while using standard actions to buff.
2: Feats like Potion Glutton can turn buffing into swift actions.
3: Use Buffs that last Minutes/Level or 10 min/Level or Hours/Level.
So really your seeing and thinking of it being done the Bad way. Not the "wrong" way but the Bad player way. Because people are too offended by the word wrong or too afraid to say it. But Bad play is Bad.
Just as well, Dexterity plays a huge role in AC for those who aren't wearing full armor. (Except Barbarians, but they get the green card because Invulnerable Rager.) And if I'm not Dexterity-based, then my AC is going to suck, and is going to double-suck because I'm lacking the Dexterity to back up the fact that I have junk armor and D8 Hit Dice. Any smart enemy is going to attack me first, especially if I can apparently deal competent damage, because a Fighter is going to be more durable and have some better armor. Reflex Saves, which are supposed to be my forte, also go into the garbage, and defeats the purpose of abilities such as Evasion.
Layered Defenses. Blur and Mirror Image both lasts 1 Minute/Level. Mid to later levels this buff can be used and you can get a few combats out of the buff.
AC is good very early Game but after a while your better building Layered defenses. The thing I like about the Swashigator is the Layered defenses AND Parry/riposte.
Not to mention, if I do go for a character such as a Bard or Investigator, I become so damn MAD that you'd think I'd have a Rage spell permanencied on my person, and if I did want to make it work, Point Buy wouldn't be the answer.
I play mostly on a 20 point buy and it is Very sufficient to run a Bard or Investigator. You should have no issue depending on 2 stats.
Also, I'm not worried about light or vision issues. A 75 GP item specifically crafted solves that problem, and if an enemy is using Deeper Darkness, then quite frankly everyone else would be blind too. I understand that Sneak Attack isn't really a great way to accomplish dealing damage, but quite frankly, if every single competent Martial class weren't left with 2-4 Skill Points/level, not to mention the most horrid class skills ever, then maybe I'd find another alternative to the UCRogue/Slayer combo, because let's face it: Sneak Attack is the only decent damage-dealing class feature available to Skill Monkeys.
A Straight Human slayer with a 10 Int would get 7 (8 if you Favor Class the skill point) skills a Level. They also get skills boosts for Studied Target.
Ranger is the Exact same but gets buffs from both Favored Enemy and terrain.
Both can take Trap Finder Trait and both can disarm magical traps level 1 if needed. (Slayer can wait till 2 for talent if he wants)
I'm not seeing your point on this one.
Sure fighter gets 2+ Int but they are a fighter and suck at everything BUT swinging a weapon. The character is really shallow in what he offers.
You can also suggest to your DM that he look into alternative rules for skills in the Unchanined book like background skills to help the Weak martial feel better about themselves out of combat.
Again, just seconding what Chess said. Swashigator can indeed give itself a DEX mutagen which the mutagen alone increases your AC by +2, on top of the extra +4 DEX you just received, so when DEX mutagened you are gaining +4 AC. Top it off with Shield and you've got +8 AC pretty damn consistently. This isn't even including the potential to Alter Self yourself to a Small race.
You can make lots of arguments, but Investigators, or Swashigators, DEX, or STR, are extremely powerful. Even if you go STR, you're still reliably sitting at 20-24 AC at bloody lvl 1.
Str investigoator was a 20 point buy, I feel it wasn't mad at all, you really just need str and int with passable dex on con. Plus your ac is chain+4, mutagen+2, barkskin+2scaling, dex+2.
My AC is generally the highest of the party. (though I am in mithral breastplate with a trait for another +2), plus if you really need it you have a short duration shield spell available.All the buffs I listed before are long duration. at lv4 they are 40minute long buffs. and you can have 2 of them prepared in your extracts and it's 1 hour between mutagens. so that's at least 80 minutes of good uptime a day.
But maybe that's not long enough for you. It's never been an issue for me but perhaps your games are different.The swashtigator is dex based, and gets mutagen to help it's AC even more. The investigator has a good will save so that's better than the rogue, and with heroism your saves are all better than the rogues. good ref+5 compared to good ref+2+2 yeah, your reflex saves are still good.
But hey, if it's not a good fit then go your unchained rogue with maybe some slayer if you feel that's more to your combat preferences. Or just go straight slayer and do str based 2wf.
20 AC by what I am presuming would be 4th level still isn't much to work with. It's actually the average AC for that level. Taking a typical unbuffed Fighter, he's sitting at +10 to hit (4 BAB, 4 Strength, +1 Weapon, +1 Weapon Focus), not including other bonuses or penalties. An optimized melee, such as a Raging Barbarian, is still going to be hitting you half the time, and D8 Hit Dice won't last long against an optimized Power Attack martial, even with a 12 or 14 Constitution (which by the way, my current build has). Of course, if you had Full Plate, you'd be sitting at a much more comfortable 25+ AC, and said Martials will be lucky to hit you every other round. Having a high AC is perhaps the only reason to justify going a Monk tank (who has D8 Hit Dice) versus any other Martial, who has D10 or D12, as well as other goodies, such as DR, healing factors, etc. Compared to my guy who will be running around with ~19 AC unbuffed by that level, which can certainly be higher if spec'd proper, I don't see the over-edging here.
I will echo your argument of having the highest AC mostly, since apparently our current Alchemist usually runs around with a base AC 20, and I have no idea how he gets that much, since it's a constant bonus.
Most combats that I notice won't take place between each other for hours. Sometimes it's just the typical 15 minute adventuring day, other times it's just an adventuring day every 2 hours or so. Unless it's a 24 Hour+ effect, I don't really count on the effect lasting for more than 1 combat or so, and it seems cynical, but to be honest, combat can take place anywhere at any time, and if combats are taking place either too close or too far from themselves, you're either in over your head, or should have saved the buff for a fight where it really mattered.
I wouldn't know how a Swashtigator should work. They might be more Dexterity-reliant than the Strength counterpart, and might have more overall AC (and Reflex) in comparison to my guy, but when I think Dexterity, it must be UCRogue, because the Errata with Slashing Grace defeats the purpose of Dexterity-based characters, which is Crit-Fishing, and that just shouts "TWF" to make it work. Fencing Grace remains unchanged, but then you're running into -4/-4 penalties, and that's just plain bad for a mostly 3/4 BAB class. Some more clarification here would help.
@ Fruian: Reach makes me more of a reactive character than a proactive character, and most Martials don't really win anything by just standing there looking pretty. Reach characters by themselves aren't really a threat unless you act upon them (or within the vicinity), and by that point you might as well go kill the Casters. In other words, they're only good against enemies with poor tactics/Intelligence.
There's only the one feat that requires you to build extremely niche and effectively be an Evil character that supports being able to buff on the fly with the Investigator/Alchemist. Dervish Dance Magi called, they want their cookie cutter back.
Buff Durations are problematic, because you shouldn't know when your next combat is going to be. Unless you're using Divinations occassionally to scan for when the next combat is, you won't know, and if it's either too close or too far away, then you can't feasibly rely on Buff Durations to be effective. Especially in the lower levels. Though I do agree it is a bad method, since it was basically every combat that was happening.
As for the buffs themselves, Blur is okay, but not extremely potent. Displacement, on the other hand, is powerful. Mirror Images can be strong too, but when you throw high-end Iteratives into the mix, as well as being focus-fired, you're going to be spending every round recasting it most of the time.
Being an Investigator would be less MAD than a Bard, that I will concede, but you're still weighing options. Bard is better at Face Skills because Charisma, but Investigator will give you good Skill Points, plus Intelligence provides more Skill Points. Since I don't plan to use Face Skills, Investigator would easily win out here. You're still losing BAB though.
Trap Finder trait I believe is a Campaign trait, and therefore may not be eligible for choice unless you are participating in a Campaign that offers it. (As far as I know, there is only one.) That being said, I'm not particularly concerned about selecting it, since getting other statistics to not-Charisma would be more important. Additionally, it is correct that I can just select the Trapfinder talent via Slayer by 7th level or so, meaning I could archetype a replacement of Trapfinder.
The point there is that every single good Martial has 2/4 Skill Points, and has crappy Class Skill availability, but they have the best damaging options in the game as far as Martials are concerned. Sneak Attack is the only damaging option available to Skill Monkeys outside of other buffs, so saying that there are other options inadvertantly defeats the entire purpose of being a Skill Monkey.
I wouldn't be opposed to going Strength-based, but then I will have to A. Abandon any semblance of TWF and take a Two-handed Weapon because you can't TWF worth a damn unless you have 20+ Dexterity because pre-requisites,...Except the original poster indicated he wanted a Dex based character.Why STR Empiricist Investigators are amazing.Pretty much exactly what he said.
There is always the Artful Dodge feat to let you use Int in place of Dex for the TWF prerequisites.
Darksol the Painbringer,
Before I discuss more with you I ask you a few things.
What are you looking for from this thread?
What are some "benchmarks" you want to be able to hit?
What is a "typical adventure day" / "typical scenario" like for you?
Before I start to show how the StrInvestigator compares and deal with things I want to be sure we're on the same page.
I ask because you seem to be set on going 2wf URogue into slayer.
Also it seems that slayer and ranger aren't good Martials.
And with these two things I don't see what you're looking for.
I get it, you REALLY REALLY like your build posted in the OP and you're in full defense mode because people think it pales in comparison to others. But you just gotta let it go that there are better options out there, and Rogue is never the answer in Pathfinder.
But you just gotta let it go that there are better options out there, and Rogue is never the answer in Pathfinder.
Never? Rather a harsh statement given the unchained rogue.
It is true that on knowledge checks the investigator rules over everyone. Still, I find that unchained rogue has it's place.
At this point I would agree that the CRB Rogue is only good for a two level dip in order to do magical traps. The second level is to get Trap Spotter talent for those GMs that still like the old style of "You didn't say you were ..." and continue with some specific circumstance that is in their opinion unique to that particular trap.
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Heretek and Chess Pwn I'm feeling the same way.
Trap Finder trait I believe is a Campaign trait, and therefore may not be eligible for choice unless you are participating in a Campaign that offers it. (As far as I know, there is only one.) That being said, I'm not particularly concerned about selecting it, since getting other statistics to not-Charisma would be more important. Additionally, it is correct that I can just select the Trapfinder talent via Slayer by 7th level or so, meaning I could archetype a replacement of Trapfinder.
Some DMs allow the Trait to be taken any time so someone does not feel trapped into taking one of the weakest classes in the game....the Rogue.
And you can take Trapfinder Talent by level 2. Your the one who wanted it out the gate at 1....so why your saying 7 IDK.
Reach makes me more of a reactive character than a proactive character, and most Martials don't really win anything by just standing there looking pretty. Reach characters by themselves aren't really a threat unless you act upon them (or within the vicinity), and by that point you might as well go kill the Casters. In other words, they're only good against enemies with poor tactics/Intelligence.
It is both Pro and reactive. Your actually trying to use EVERY single action possible in a round. Which is smart play. And reach is very successful. If your fighting Mooks and they are all acting like 20+ INT creatures even at level 1 It is a DM problem.
As for the buffs themselves, Blur is okay, but not extremely potent. Displacement, on the other hand, is powerful. Mirror Images can be strong too, but when you throw high-end Iteratives into the mix, as well as being focus-fired, you're going to be spending every round recasting it most of the time.
Blur does not diminish like Mirror Image. And if they DM is using Core Sneak attack (Not Unchained) then it shuts off SA damage early levels. Displacement is Rounds/Level and can only be used in a single Fight. But it is better.
There's only the one feat that requires you to build extremely niche and effectively be an Evil character that supports being able to buff on the fly with the Investigator/Alchemist. Dervish Dance Magi called, they want their cookie cutter back.
You can easily be Neutral and Worship a God of Gluttony. So no you don't HAVE to be evil.
And What did the Magus say? Cause I don't remember Potion Glutton in their build.
The point there is that every single good Martial has 2/4 Skill Points, and has crappy Class Skill availability, but they have the best damaging options in the game as far as Martials are concerned. Sneak Attack is the only damaging option available to Skill Monkeys outside of other buffs, so saying that there are other options inadvertantly defeats the entire purpose of being a Skill Monkey.
Both Ranger and Slayer are better martial classes than a Fighter. And BOTH classes can get some of the better Feats BEFORE a fighter.
Buff Durations are problematic, because you shouldn't know when your next combat is going to be. Unless you're using Divinations occassionally to scan for when the next combat is, you won't know, and if it's either too close or too far away, then you can't feasibly rely on Buff Durations to be effective. Especially in the lower levels. Though I do agree it is a bad method, since it was basically every combat that was happening.
This is not true in the slightest.
When you enter an area to explore...ALWAYS expect a fight to happen.
You go to enter a Dungeon those Hour/level buffs SHOULD be rolling....and you should be thinking about those 10min/level buffs as well to go up.
Scouting, Divination, Perceptions, and Intel can get you info if there could be a possible fight coming up.
If your playing a seasoned adventurer they are expecting a fight when they enter Hostile territory.
Be prepared. It's that simple.