You'd probably want to put this in the homebrew subforum instead of in general discussion.
Anyway, you've not changed my, have you? The skill points are a good touch, but really, all you've is add the dead levels of 3.5e back in, and give them +5 to damage with their weapon training.
In the other thread about this I posted the link to my fighter fix.
Most of the issues people have with the class involve out of combat utility.
The main things I included was a Combat Training choice at first level, which includes a number of Ranger combat style feasts which the fighter gains access to through his regular bonus feats without making prerequisites.
I did plan to rewrite it however, with each Combat Training derivative granting class abilities based on the various fighter archetypes, like two handed fighter, two weapon warrior, archer, etc.
Combat Training has weapon groups and weapon training incorporated directly into it.
Armor Training grants feats now (endurance) and DR that scales with it. It is also divorced from DEX and increases the actual effective armor bonus for the armor, rather than increasing the max DEX.
Maneuver Training also exists which comes auth a free improved maneuver feat and let's you treat your size as larger for a chosen maneuver as you progress.
Lastly I threw in all the defensive abilities of the Unbreakable and the Martial Flexibility from the brawler, along with some other utilitarian abilities. Mostly expanding on skills and feats that the fighter uses, such as Run, Matter Craftsman, and Leadership.
He also has a Second Wind ability, ala fifth edition for some self healing, so long as he is not fatigued. In fact, the fighter I ended up writing has a lot of ways to deal with fatigue. It's a major thematic part of the fighter in my version that he doesn't get fatigued, which happened by accident and I'm not mad about it.
You mostly improved things that the fighter didn't need improving on.
He doesn't need to do more damage. He needs to be able to do things other than damage.
The 4 skill points per level was a start.
But you need actual class features that are more than simply bigger to hit and damage numbers.
I think giving out the ranger combat style to the fighter is probably too far, as it's really the one good reason to be a ranger instead of a fighter. I would consider it uncool to poach that, since the only other really good thing rangers get is favored enemy which is limited due to its focus. While it can scale higher than the fighters weapon training bonus, only getting it against certain enemies until level 10 makes it rather weak at times.
Here is a potentially cool idea:
Fighters get free ranks in crafting for any weapon groups they have weapon training in. They also treat those crafting skills as though the had the Signature Skill feat for that crafting.
Combat Stamina feat is free for Fighters. This changes up what you can do with a lot of other feats, providing interesting options.
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You mostly improved things that the fighter didn't need improving on.
He doesn't need to do more damage. He needs to be able to do things other than damage.
The 4 skill points per level was a start.
But you need actual class features that are more than simply bigger to hit and damage numbers.
I think giving out the ranger combat style to the fighter is probably too far, as it's really the one good reason to be a ranger instead of a fighter. I would consider it uncool to poach that, since the only other really good thing rangers get is favored enemy which is limited due to its focus. While it can scale higher than the fighters weapon training bonus, only getting it against certain enemies until level 10 makes it rather weak at times.
Here is a potentially cool idea:
Fighters get free ranks in crafting for any weapon groups they have weapon training in. They also treat those crafting skills as though the had the Signature Skill feat for that crafting.
Combat Stamina feat is free for Fighters. This changes up what you can do with a lot of other feats, providing interesting options.
I disagree with the notion that combat style should be a ranger thing exclusively.
Fighters are the trained combat guys, if anyone should have the means to bypass prerequisites it should be the fighter.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I disagree with the notion that combat style should be a ranger thing exclusively.
Fighters are the trained combat guys, if anyone should have the means to bypass prerequisites it should be the fighter.
Stealing iconic features from other classes strikes me as an extraordinarily lazy and inappropriate approach to redesigning a class that suffers from lack of unique class features.
Stealing iconic features from other classes strikes me as an extraordinarily lazy and inappropriate approach to redesigning a class that suffers from lack of unique class features.I disagree with the notion that combat style should be a ranger thing exclusively.
Fighters are the trained combat guys, if anyone should have the means to bypass prerequisites it should be the fighter.
I would respond by saying that the Combat Style is a feature that rightfully and in a manner that is even more iconic belongs to the fighter.
I'm not poaching Favorite Enemy.
Really now. Favoured Enemy is heavily reliant upon the GM to properly use and rangers' two-weapon style dates back to 2nd Edition or even earlier.
Arakhor's right. Combat style is an evolution of a ranger class feature from previous editions.
It's fine to come up with a class feature that fits a similar niche, but to blatantly take it from the ranger wholesale is really lazy and lame. Besides, the fighter gets tons of bonus feats. I think a better direction would give the fighter something unique to do with his feats than let him bypass prerequisites.
Arakhor's right. Combat style is an evolution of a ranger class feature from previous editions.
It's fine to come up with a class feature that fits a similar niche, but to blatantly take it from the ranger wholesale is really lazy and lame. Besides, the fighter gets tons of bonus feats. I think a better direction would give the fighter something unique to do with his feats than let him bypass prerequisites.
I do plan on another revision, where the fighter chooses a particular outlet of Combat Training, where he has a group(s) of weapons and he progresses through a number of abilities that are parallel to each other and grant him a sort of fighter's bloodline/arcane school. Each of these different options for training will most likely be rips from the various fighter archetypes.
I would like each one to also allow the fighter to bypass feat prerequisites, since as I said, his specific training in that area should make him the best at that particular style. It doesn't give him a Combat Style feat, it allows him to pick a specific set of feats, and bypass all of their prereqs at any point over his character, not just at 2nd, 6th, or 10th levels. It's not a carbon copy.
I've also always seen rangers as one of the original hybrid classes between the fighter and the druid, something not exclusive to me when you consider the old ranger/paladin prestige classes from 3.5 Unearthed Arcana.
My version also makes armor training do something more than higher max dex and free movement. I actually incorporate many different archetypes into the fighter chassis, to keep him thematic.
How about applying weapon feats to their selected weapon groups, rather than just single weapons, e.g. Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialisation in Heavy Blades?
How about applying weapon feats to their selected weapon groups, rather than just single weapons, e.g. Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialisation in Heavy Blades?
While it sounds cool, it's not really useful.
Why? Because the game mechanics (WBL) force you to invest in a single weapon when enhancing, or at most a pair of weapons. In order to remain effective you really need to focus on 1/2 weapons, so you're not going to have lots of weapons laying around and will be very unlikely to use anything else.
So while in theory it's neat, it wouldn't be used (or at least not very much). You're going to purchase your weapons and pretty much use them to the exclusion of anything else.
And again, fighters do need to be better at dealing damage. They need versatility. They need to do more than just "I swing a weapon at it and kill it".
Mutation Warrior is a great example of things fighters should get, because the mutagen enables him to do things he normally couldn't do. Like fly.
I would like each one to also allow the fighter to bypass feat prerequisites, since as I said, his specific training in that area should make him the best at that particular style. It doesn't give him a Combat Style feat, it allows him to pick a specific set of feats, and bypass all of their prereqs at any point over his character, not just at 2nd, 6th, or 10th levels. It's not a carbon copy.
I feel you haven't thought out the mechanics of this very much yet, because that would mean fighters can pickup Shield Master feat at level 1 (and other things that probably shouldn't happen). There are just some things that shouldn't have that early of access. If you were really going to do something like this, maybe ignoring ability score requirements. That would enable them to TWF very effectively. That would be the main thing they would get by being able to ignore feat requirements.
But personally I feel this steals too much from the Ranger still and don't think it should be implemented.
Weapon group feats would certainly be more useful with an automatic bonus system, such as presented in Unleashed. That way, you could pick up any weapon in your group and apply both bonuses and feats to it.
Have you tried giving Fighter a the variant multiclassing for free? If you let him pick any other martial, and he doesn't lose those normal feats, then he is now receiving versatility and its not the same for every fighter - it also lines up with the dead levels left in the OP so it could go in tandem but as already stated, fighters don't need to be better at what they are already good at.
How about applying weapon feats to their selected weapon groups, rather than just single weapons, e.g. Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialisation in Heavy Blades?While it sounds cool, it's not really useful.
Why? Because the game mechanics (WBL) force you to invest in a single weapon when enhancing, or at most a pair of weapons. In order to remain effective you really need to focus on 1/2 weapons, so you're not going to have lots of weapons laying around and will be very unlikely to use anything else.
So while in theory it's neat, it wouldn't be used (or at least not very much). You're going to purchase your weapons and pretty much use them to the exclusion of anything else.
And again, fighters do need to be better at dealing damage. They need versatility. They need to do more than just "I swing a weapon at it and kill it".
Mutation Warrior is a great example of things fighters should get, because the mutagen enables him to do things he normally couldn't do. Like fly.
I would like each one to also allow the fighter to bypass feat prerequisites, since as I said, his specific training in that area should make him the best at that particular style. It doesn't give him a Combat Style feat, it allows him to pick a specific set of feats, and bypass all of their prereqs at any point over his character, not just at 2nd, 6th, or 10th levels. It's not a carbon copy.I feel you haven't thought out the mechanics of this very much yet, because that would mean fighters can pickup Shield Master feat at level 1 (and other things that probably shouldn't happen). There are just some things that shouldn't have that early of access. If you were really going to do something like this, maybe ignoring ability score requirements. That would enable them to TWF very effectively. That would be the main thing they would get by being able to ignore feat requirements.
But personally I feel this steals too much from the Ranger still and don't think it...
Check out my link upthread. He gets access to those feats, but not until those levels, but he isn't required to actually spend the feat at that specific level.
That said, I don't like combat style is the iconic class feature of the ranger, and I don't think it encroaches on the ranger anywhere near as much as the ranger having such ridiculous combat prowess takes away from the fighter's niche. And that I think is the bigger problem. I would prefer rangers not to have the combat style if it meant fighters were playable.
Paladins have much the same chassis as the ranger and they function pretty well in comparison without the combat style.
Paladins have much the same chassis as the ranger and they function pretty well in comparison without the combat style.
Not really, unless you mean they're both 4th level progression spell casters with full BAB, but otherwise the paladin and ranger couldn't be more different. Paladins have Smite and LOH to really keep them up to par (and have a "better" spell list).
Also consider this, the main things a Ranger gets are Combat Style, Favored Enemy, and the animal companion. Animal companion doesn't come online till 4th level, and unless you spend the feat isn't really very useful due to the level lag. Favored Enemy is extremely situational until you get to level 10 and can cast Instant Enemy. So campaigns you can just rock FE(human) and be fine, but otherwise you may wander around without using your FE for a long time. This leaves Combat Styles as the only truly useful things that rangers get. Everything else the ranger gets really isn't that useful. You pretty much want to rip out the one thing that makes rangers unique and a strong class, and hand it to the fighter.
I repeat again. The fighter doesn't need to be better at fighting. The fighter deals more than enough damage in combat. He doesn't need more of it. If you gave fighters Combat Style feats all you'll really do is make TWF more viable for the fighter (since other combat style don't really have anything the fighter can't get). Fighters need something that lets them do new and different things besides doing damage better. The fighter has never had a problem in combat (except for saves), its outside of combat where he fails.
Paladins have much the same chassis as the ranger and they function pretty well in comparison without the combat style.Not really, unless you mean they're both 4th level progression spell casters with full BAB, but otherwise the paladin and ranger couldn't be more different. Paladins have Smite and LOH to really keep them up to par (and have a "better" spell list).
Also consider this, the main things a Ranger gets are Combat Style, Favored Enemy, and the animal companion. Animal companion doesn't come online till 4th level, and unless you spend the feat isn't really very useful due to the level lag. Favored Enemy is extremely situational until you get to level 10 and can cast Instant Enemy. So campaigns you can just rock FE(human) and be fine, but otherwise you may wander around without using your FE for a long time. This leaves Combat Styles as the only truly useful things that rangers get. Everything else the ranger gets really isn't that useful. You pretty much want to rip out the one thing that makes rangers unique and a strong class, and hand it to the fighter.
I repeat again. The fighter doesn't need to be better at fighting. The fighter deals more than enough damage in combat. He doesn't need more of it. If you gave fighters Combat Style feats all you'll really do is make TWF more viable for the fighter (since other combat style don't really have anything the fighter can't get). Fighters need something that lets them do new and different things besides doing damage better. The fighter has never had a problem in combat (except for saves), its outside of combat where he fails.
Holy Hyperbole Batman!
I'm fairly certain the reason you want to bypass prerequisites is not only to have earlier access to certain abilities, but also to free up other feats to have more options for things like out of combat abilities.Again, did you even read my link? I spent a lot of effort on giving fighters utility. Things like adding 1/2 their level on choice skill checks, expanded bonus feat access, and some self sustainability are not really "more damage" unless you are regretting to the fact that the fighter could now do more damage because he has more longevity and can have more options for obtaining useful needed magic items?
Fighter has enough feats, and the feats for out of combat options aren't exactly stellar (generally speaking).
Reading through your link I find you poached the Brawler's abilities and the Ranger's abilities. Oh and the Barbarian's spell sunder.
You just went through and copied all the good stuff from other classes.
I would never allow your version of a fighter at my table.
Edit: You do have some good things in your idea, like making the fighter count as having Int 13 for combat expertise. And the Militant Expertise ability, although I would probably still tweak that. I also like you reroll saves ability, though I would probably still tweak that further.
I was thinking about expanding Bravery into something like "Warrior's Indoctrination - You receive a +1 bonus on will saves against effects which alter your ability to act freely. This includes effects like Confusion or Fear effects. For Intimidation effects add double this bonus to the DC to be Intimidated. At level 4 you may reroll a Will save 1/day and every 4 levels after you gain an additional use. Using this ability is not an action, but it must be used before the result of the roll is revealed. If you have multiple uses you can expend them on the same roll, and choose to use any roll."
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UNCHAINED FIGHTER
HD d10; BAB full; skill points: 4+Int mod/level
Good saves: Fort, Ref, Will
1: Combat Expertise, feat aptitude, war master's edge +1
2: Bonus feat, bravery I
3: Mettle, personal weapon +1
4: Bonus feat, stamina I, strong stomach I
5: Battlefield control (10 ft.), war master's edge +2
6: Bonus feat, bravery II, onslaught of blows
7: Combat mobility, personal weapon +2
8: Bonus feat, stamina II
9: Battlefield control (15 ft.), war master's edge +3,
10: Bonus feat, bravery III, tactical commander
11: Personal weapon +3, warlord
12: Bonus feat, strong stomach II
13: Superior battlefield control (20 ft.), war master's edge +4
14: Bonus feat, bravery IV, cheat the fog of war
15: Indomitable will, personal weapon +4
16: Bonus feat, supreme vital strike
17: Battlefield control (25 ft.), war master's edge +5
18: Bonus feat, supreme warlord
19: Personal weapon +5
20: Bonus feat, desperate resolve
War Master's Edge (Ex): Combat is the fighter's stock in trade, and he's better at it than anyone. At 1st level, his training provides a +1 insight bonus to attacks, CMB, damage, initiative checks, and AC/CMD. In addition, his armor check penalty is reduced by 1 and the max Dex AC from armor increases by 1. The bonus provided by this ability increases as shown in the table.
Bravery (Ex): At 2nd level, the fighter is immune to effects that cause the shaken condition. For more severe fear, the effect is lessened by 1 step (cowering -> panicked -> frightened -> shaken). The severity is reduced by 2 steps at 6th level, by 3 steps at 10th level, and a fighter of 14th level or higher is immune to [fear] effects.
Mettle (Ex): As evasion, but applies to Fort/Will effects.
Personal Weapon (Su): At 3rd level, the fighter selects a single weapon (not type of weapon) at the start of each day. That weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus when wielded by the fighter. If already +1, the fighter can increase its enhancement bonus by +1 or cause it to gain a +1 equivalent weapon property. The additional enhancement bonus to this weapon improved as shown in the table.
Stamina (Ex): At 4th level, the fighter's endurance training renders him immune to effects that cause the fatigued condition. If he would normally be exhausted, he becomes fatigued instead. At 8th level he is immune to exhaustion.
Strong Stomach (Ex): A fighter is inured to the sight of blood and the stench of corpses on the battlefield. At 4th level he is immune to effects that cause the sickened condition; if nauseated, he is sickened instead. At 12th level he is immune to nausea.
Battlefield Control (Ex): At 5h level, the fighter gains Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat. In addition, he can choose to reduce his movement speed by 5 ft. for one round in order to extend his threatened area by 5 ft. For every 4 levels above 5th, he can trade an additional 5 ft. (up to his maximum movement speed). Enemies who have not seen the fighter use this ability are not necessarily aware of it.
Onslaught of Blows (Ex): A fighter takes no penalty on iterative attacks (thus, a 16th level fighter attacks at +16/+16/+16/+16).
Combat Mobility (Ex): At 7th level, a fighter can take a full move and still full attack. Movement and attacks can be interspaced as the fighter sees fit, but all movement must be taken in 5-ft. increments. This ability also allows the fighter to make a full attack at the end of a charge.
Tactical Commander (Ex): Starting at 10th level, the fighter can spend a move action in order to grant allies who can see and hear him the benefits of his War Master’s Edge, but at only half his normal bonus.
Warlord (Ex): At 11th level, the fighter’s prowess and renown are is such that he can assemble an army eager to serve under him. This requires 1 week and provides personnel as if the fighter had the Leadership feat (if he or she already has the Leadership feat, the effects stack). The newly-assembled army remains until the purpose of assembling is fulfilled, or after 1 month of inactivity in any event.
Superior Battlefield Control (Ex): Starting at 13th level, as a free action the fighter can designate any portion of his threatened area as difficult terrain.
Cheat the Fog of War (Ex): At 14th level, the fighter’s instinctive awareness of tactics and battlefield positioning is unmatched. He can deduce which effects are illusory and which threats are real, even from magically-concealed enemies; this counts as true seeing, but is an extraordinary ability that cannot be dispelled. When faced with a projected image, the fighter can deduce the actual location of the caster.
Indomitable Will (Ex): A fighter of 15th level or higher under an ongoing [mind-affecting] effect may attempt an additional Will save each round to end the effect. If the effect does not normally allow a save, the fighter gains a Will save (DC 25) to end the effect.
Supreme Vital Strike (Ex): Starting at 16th level, as full round action the fighter can make a single melee or ranged weapon attack that deals base damage equal to the normal weapon base damage x his fighter level. Effects like lead blades, etc. follow the normal rules for adding multipliers (e.g., a 16th level fighter with a lead bladed longsword deals a base 17d8 damage with this attack).
Supreme Warlord (Ex): Starting at 18th level, opponents with a CR equal to half the fighter’s level or less must save vs. Will each round (DC 10 + the fighter’s level) spent in combat against him. Failure indicates that they are so awed by his prowess that they throw down their arms and surrender to him; if he or his companions continue to attack them, they flee if possible (a dishonorable fighter can use his battlefield control ability to impede their retreat, allowing them to be slaughtered). If their surrender is accepted, the fighter can spend a move action to recruit them to his side; this change of allegiance lasts for as long as they remain within his presence.
Desperate Resolve (Ex): Starting at 20th level, the fighter no longer automatically fails saves on a natural 1.
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Fighter has enough feats, and the feats for out of combat options aren't exactly stellar (generally speaking).
Reading through your link I find you poached the Brawler's abilities and the Ranger's abilities. Oh and the Barbarian's spell sunder.
You just went through and copied all the good stuff from other classes.
I would never allow your version of a fighter at my table.
Edit: You do have some good things in your idea, like making the fighter count as having Int 13 for combat expertise. And the Militant Expertise ability, although I would probably still tweak that. I also like you reroll saves ability, though I would probably still tweak that further.
I was thinking about expanding Bravery into something like "Warrior's Indoctrination - You receive a +1 bonus on will saves against effects which alter your ability to act freely. This includes effects like Confusion or Fear effects. For Intimidation effects add double this bonus to the DC to be Intimidated. At level 4 you may reroll a Will save 1/day and every 4 levels after you gain an additional use. Using this ability is not an action, but it must be used before the result of the roll is revealed. If you have multiple uses you can expend them on the same roll, and choose to use any roll."
Truthfully though, Martial Flexibility is something that belongs to the fighter. In fact, most things the brawler has are things that oughta go to the fighter, but can't due to the fact that the Core Rulebook already has existed for so long.
Spell Shatter is a feat available to dwarven fighters, and its presence in the final version there came about as a crowd demanded ability. If I had things my way for real, that ability would remain optional, but more accessible.
You are coming off overly aggressive, not sure if you mean to be demeaning or if you actually hold the opinion that I am stealing "all the good stuff" from other class's abilities or if the stuff I am converting is thematically more appropriate for the fighter.
It's been long established that legacy is the cause of a lot of problems in our edition, I would not recommend closing your mind to the ideas of others based on this mind set. There is a reason that Sacred Cow is considered an insult on the forums.
Truthfully though, Martial Flexibility is something that belongs to the fighter. In fact, most things the brawler has are things that oughta go to the fighter, but can't due to the fact that the Core Rulebook already has existed for so long.
Spell Shatter is a feat available to dwarven fighters, and its presence in the final version there came about as a crowd demanded ability. If I had things my way for real, that ability would remain optional, but more accessible.
You are coming off overly aggressive, not sure if you mean to be demeaning or if you actually hold the opinion that I am stealing "all the good stuff" from other class's abilities or if the stuff I am converting is thematically more appropriate for the fighter.
It's been long established that legacy is the cause of a lot of problems in our edition, I would not recommend closing your mind to the ideas of others based on this mind set. There is a reason that Sacred Cow is considered an insult on the forums.
I'm not attempting to be demeaning, but I do believe you are poaching all the good things from other classes, and making a class that is blatantly a higher power level than the other full BAB classes. The goal when refining a class shouldn't be to make the most powerful class. The goal should be to make a balanced class that has it's own niche or own mechanics. Poaching the mechanics of other classes steps on the toes of those classes. That is exactly what happened to the core rogue. Everybody got all his goodies and then everyone complained about how useless he was. Don't fix the fighter by making other classes bad.
I'm willing to listen to new ideas, and I don't have a legacy mindset issue. I have a balance/encroachment issue.
A redesigned fighter shouldn't step on the toes of already existing classes by taking their stuff, and a redesigned fighter shouldn't be obviously more powerful classes that hold a similar role in the game (let's ignore balance issues between 6th/9th level casters vs everyone else because that wont get us anywhere).
Truthfully though, Martial Flexibility is something that belongs to the fighter. In fact, most things the brawler has are things that oughta go to the fighter, but can't due to the fact that the Core Rulebook already has existed for so long.
Spell Shatter is a feat available to dwarven fighters, and its presence in the final version there came about as a crowd demanded ability. If I had things my way for real, that ability would remain optional, but more accessible.
You are coming off overly aggressive, not sure if you mean to be demeaning or if you actually hold the opinion that I am stealing "all the good stuff" from other class's abilities or if the stuff I am converting is thematically more appropriate for the fighter.
It's been long established that legacy is the cause of a lot of problems in our edition, I would not recommend closing your mind to the ideas of others based on this mind set. There is a reason that Sacred Cow is considered an insult on the forums.
I'm not attempting to be demeaning, but I do believe you are poaching all the good things from other classes, and making a class that is blatantly a higher power level than the other full BAB classes. The goal when refining a class shouldn't be to make the most powerful class. The goal should be to make a balanced class that has it's own niche or own mechanics. Poaching the mechanics of other classes steps on the toes of those classes. That is exactly what happened to the core rogue. Everybody got all his goodies and then everyone complained about how useless he was. Don't fix the fighter by making other classes bad.
I'm willing to listen to new ideas, and I don't have a legacy mindset issue. I have a balance/encroachment issue.
A redesigned fighter shouldn't step on the toes of already existing classes by taking their stuff, and a redesigned fighter shouldn't be obviously more powerful classes that hold a similar role in the game (let's ignore balance issues between 6th/9th level casters...
Is it not blatant encroachment on the fighter that Rangers get access to feats more quickly (is the purpose of those feats not to enable the fighter to get to the end of a feat chain sooner?) and by bypassing prerequisites?
Rangers have been encroaching on fighters schtick for a while now, giving them d10HD and medium armor as well as more combat style feats and options for which ones to take very clearly is a step against the fighter.
We need more defined roles before this discussion continues for its own sake. As for the fighter, we see more and more strong options for it seemingly because we make threads like this. Plus, when you actually look at the fighter chassis, he really has no class features outside of Bravery, Armor, and Weapon Training, along with their respective capstones.
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Is it not blatant encroachment on the fighter that Rangers get access to feats more quickly (is the purpose of those feats not to enable the fighter to get to the end of a feat chain sooner?) and by bypassing prerequisites?
Rangers have been encroaching on fighters schtick for a while now, giving them d10HD and medium armor as well as more combat style feats and options for which ones to take very clearly is a step against the fighter.
Just as the casters have been stealing the ranger's schtick from Day 1.
Imagine if locate creature, find the path, and discern location were ranger class features, rather than spells!
Rangers have been encroaching on fighters schtick for a while now, giving them d10HD and medium armor as well as more combat style feats and options for which ones to take very clearly is a step against the fighter.
Rangers could use any armour in 2nd Edition. This is a step down, but I'm sure you already knew that.
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Rangers have been encroaching on fighters schtick for a while now, giving them d10HD and medium armor as well as more combat style feats and options for which ones to take very clearly is a step against the fighter.Rangers could use any armour in 2nd Edition. This is a step down, but I'm sure you already knew that.
It has been made clear, and yet this is not second edition.
It's not even third edition.Legacy is not what we should be using to make decisions.
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master_marshmallow
Taking features from other classes and giving them to the fighter is still an extremely lazy and lame approach to reworking the fighter.
I often feel there's an undue amount of focus on power, DPR, amount of bonus feats, etc with the fighter. What's important is that the fighter is more fun and interesting to play. Honestly, I frequently groan whenever I see a thread about fixing the fighter.
master_marshmallow
Taking features from other classes and giving them to the fighter is still an extremely lazy and lame approach to reworking the fighter.I often feel there's an undue amount of focus on power, DPR, amount of bonus feats, etc with the fighter. What's important is that the fighter is more fun and interesting to play. Honestly, I frequently groan whenever I see a thread about fixing the fighter.
Did you read it? Did you even bother?
Suggesting that people who disagree with you haven't read your document is really not the best way to go about things, you know.
Suggesting that people who disagree with you haven't read your document is really not the best way to go about things, you know.
I genuinely didn't know if you had since most of the actual written abilities I put in there are not combat oriented. Most other things were amalgamated from archetypes and from later releases.
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Some of the abilities are not combat-oriented, I agree, but you're complaining about the ranger is stealing the fighter's glory and then go and give the fighter an even better version of the ranger's combat style is not the way to go about it. The fighter doesn't need better ways to fight, after all.
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Did you read it? Did you even bother?master_marshmallow
Taking features from other classes and giving them to the fighter is still an extremely lazy and lame approach to reworking the fighter.I often feel there's an undue amount of focus on power, DPR, amount of bonus feats, etc with the fighter. What's important is that the fighter is more fun and interesting to play. Honestly, I frequently groan whenever I see a thread about fixing the fighter.
No need to get hostile with me. I read your fighter fix before. I have the same opinion on it as I did back then. Its 1st level is way too good. Its two main class features were stolen from other classes. I like some of the secondary class features, but I'm not fond of the execution and direction.
Ironically the tone of the thread towards the fighter is the exact opposite of what has been stated before in previous discussions.
More than once the fighter has been called bad at fighting on these forums, literally the opposite of what Arakhor just said. Numbers aren't all there is to fighting after all.
Back to the Ranger thing, why is it so important that the ranger's combat style not be encroached upon? The only answer is legacy. When comparing the two classes, the ranger ends up superior in almost every way save for the fact that the fighter gets a couple extra feats that the ranger doesn't. But the ranger skips prerequisites so it ends up being that the ranger is on the same power level as the fighter, plus spells, plus thrice as many skills. If we are to differentiate the classes and give players a reason to stick to the fighter and not just go ranger instead, should they not be superior in combat?
Why is martial flexibility not something that belonged to the fighter in the first place? Martial Flexibility wasn't written yet, so the fighter didn't get it. That's really it.
Not meaning to be insulting, I just find it funny that the fighter vs ranger debate has completely reversed itt compared to its previous iterations.
As for the 1st level thing, really you need to compare it to the other full martial classes that exist. Slayer, Swashbuckler, Gunslinger, and even monks all get about the same amount of abilities at first level. The only exception is that instead of just having the fighter being able to qualify for Combat Expertise for free, I just gave it to him, because you know, rangers are better etc.
When I authored that fix I did it with crowd sourced input, it's not a creation just from my mind.
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So wait- your fighter looks like this:
4+INT skills/level
Lvl - Fort/Ref/Will - Features
- 1 -- 2 / 0 / 0 -- Bonus Feat
- 2 -- 3 / 0 / 0 -- Bonus Feat, Armor Training 1
- 3 -- 3 / 1 / 1 -- Superior Saves 1
- 4 -- 4 / 1 / 1 -- Bonus Feat, Weapon Training 1
- 5 -- 4 / 1 / 1 --
- 6 -- 5 / 2 / 2 -- Bonus Feat, Armor Training 2, Superior Saves 2
- 7 -- 5 / 2 / 2 --
- 8 -- 6 / 2 / 2 -- Bonus Feat, Weapon Training 2
- 9 -- 6 / 3 / 3 -- Superior Saves 3
- 10 - 7 / 3 / 3 -- Bonus Feat, Armor Training 3
- 11 - 7 / 3 / 3 --
- 12 - 8 / 4 / 4 -- Bonus Feat, Superior Saves 4, Weapon Training 3
- 13 - 8 / 4 / 4 --
- 14 - 9 / 4 / 4 -- Bonus Feat, Armor Training 4
- 15 - 9 / 5 / 5 -- Superior Saves 5
- 16 - 10/5 / 5 -- Bonus Feat, Weapon Training 4
- 17 - 10/5 / 5 --
- 18 - 11/6 / 6 -- Bonus Feat, Armor Training 5, Superior Saves 6
- 19 - 11/6 / 6 --
- 20 - 12/6 / 6 -- Bonus Feat, Weapon Training 5
Actually, you have the format all wrong.
Each class ability is unique, scaling is NOT a unique ability.So actually, his fighter looks like this:
Lvl - Fort/Ref/Will - Features
- 1 -- 2 / 0 / 0 -- Bonus Feats Progression
- 2 -- 3 / 0 / 0 -- Armor Training (+1, +1/4 levels)
- 3 -- 3 / 1 / 1 -- Superior Saves (+1 /3 levels)
- 4 -- 4 / 1 / 1 -- Weapon Training (+1/4 levels)
- 5 -- 4 / 1 / 1 --
- 6 -- 5 / 2 / 2 -- Armor Training (heavy armor movement)
- 7 -- 5 / 2 / 2 --
- 8 -- 6 / 2 / 2 --
- 9 -- 6 / 3 / 3 --
- 10 - 7 / 3 / 3 --
- 11 - 7 / 3 / 3 --
- 12 - 8 / 4 / 4 --
- 13 - 8 / 4 / 4 --
- 14 - 9 / 4 / 4 --
- 15 - 9 / 5 / 5 --
- 16 - 10/ 5 / 5 --
- 17 - 10/ 5 / 5 --
- 18 - 11/ 6 / 6 --
- 19 - 11/ 6 / 6 --
- 20 - 12/ 6 / 6 --
If we treat the bonus feat as something akin to spellcasting, that means it should actually have its own table.
1 Bonus feat
2
3 Bonus feat
4
5 Bonus feat
6
7 Bonus feat
8
9 Bonus feat
10
11 Bonus feat
12
13 Bonus feat
14
15 Bonus feat
16
17 Bonus feat
18
19 Bonus feat
------------------------------
And as you can see, this is a pathetic chassis for any melee class.
This build solves NOTHING. It gives the fighter virtually nothing.
I'm sorry, but I do not consider this anywhere NEAR a serious attempt at a fighter build.
==========================
==Aelryinth
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Some of the abilities are not combat-oriented, I agree, but you're complaining about the ranger is stealing the fighter's glory and then go and give the fighter an even better version of the ranger's combat style is not the way to go about it. The fighter doesn't need better ways to fight, after all.
Actually, it's PRECISELY THE WAY TO GO ABOUT IT.
Because the fighter is the weapons guy, and the ranger is the Enemy Guy.
The ranger should never, ever have encroached on the fighter's turf. He got the feats; he got them earlier; and he got to ignore pre-reqs.
He broke every rule of class balance and you're siding with the ranger? The ranger broke the rules first.
The rangers gets MAGIC.
And THEN gets thrice the skill points of the no-magic fighter.
I'm sorry, there is NO EXCUSE for that kind of lackadaisical class balance.
The fighter is the ONLY Full melee class that basically doesn't get magical abilities. Of COURSE it should have a heap of skill points. Of COURSE it should have good saves. It doesn't have Magic to take care of those things for it!
The brawler should never have needed to exist. the simple existence of the martial mastery archetype fighter makes it very, very plain that the brawler's martial ability to get feats is a blatant attempt to give the fighter some flexibility in his load out.
THE BRAWLER SHOULD NOT NEED TO EXIST. It should be a two feats that a fighter can take. That's it. Martial Mastery should be part of the fighter class.
Spell Sunder already exists for the fighter. Except it's dwarf only and clearly inferior to what Barbarians get. Except Barbarians get supernatural powers, and Fighters get no magical powers at all. You are complaining that a no-magic class has an anti-magic ability? Double standards much? Feh.
===Aelryinth
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UNCHAINED FIGHTER
HD d10; BAB full; skill points: 4+Int mod/level
Good saves: Fort, Ref, Will1: Combat Expertise, feat aptitude, war master's edge +1
2: Bonus feat, bravery I
3: Mettle, personal weapon +1
4: Bonus feat, stamina I, strong stomach I
5: Battlefield control (10 ft.), war master's edge +2
6: Bonus feat, bravery II, onslaught of blows
7: Combat mobility, personal weapon +2
8: Bonus feat, stamina II
9: Battlefield control (15 ft.), war master's edge +3,
10: Bonus feat, bravery III, tactical commander
11: Personal weapon +3, warlord
12: Bonus feat, strong stomach II
13: Superior battlefield control (20 ft.), war master's edge +4
14: Bonus feat, bravery IV, cheat the fog of war
15: Indomitable will, personal weapon +4
16: Bonus feat, supreme vital strike
17: Battlefield control (25 ft.), war master's edge +5
18: Bonus feat, supreme warlord
19: Personal weapon +5
20: Bonus feat, desperate resolve** spoiler omitted **...
In contrast to the above, Kirth's fighter should actually be formatted like so:
1: Combat Expertise, feat aptitude, Bonus feat progression, war master's edge (+1, +1/4 levels)
2: bravery (fear level -1, -1/4 levels)
3: Mettle, personal weapon (+1, +1/4 levels)
4: stamina I, strong stomach I
5: Battlefield control (10 ft, +5 ft/4 levels))
6: onslaught of blows
7: Combat mobility
8: stamina II
9:
10: tactical commander
11: warlord
12: strong stomach II
13: Superior Battlefield Control
14: Bravery (Immune to fear), cheat the fog of war
15: Indomitable will
16: supreme vital strike
17:
18: supreme warlord
19:
20: desperate resolve
Feat Progression:
1) Bonus Combat Feat
2) Bonus Combat Feat
3)
4) Bonus Combat Feat
etc etc/
This method of laying out the class clearly shows where you get something and where you do not.
It also clearly equates the 'extra stuff' of bonus feats to getting something akin to a caster list, and clearly shows off all the holes where you don't get squat for bonus feats. If that was even minor spellcasting, you'd have complainers wondering why they didn't get more or better spells.
Bravery and strong stomach could even potentially be 'eliminated' as per-level abilities. The difference is that they scale similar to a paladin's mercies, except they aren't as strong. Where a paladin is immune to fear straight off, Kirth's fighter gradually gets more resistant to fear.
Where the paladin becomes able to cure conditions with his mercies, the fighter becomes immune to conditions with strong stomach, and those conditions become stronger, and the immunity thus stronger, with levels.
Plus, he fills in a LOT of holes with other, brand new, spiffy abilities, that are just not scaling numbers (i.e. higher caster levels). He can move a 14th level ability to 13 and plug one hole without any problems.
Still has gaps way up top, however.
Seriously, treating an extra +1 like a whole new class ability means that every 4 levels, any caster who can cast Greater magic Weapon gets ANOTHER whole class ability. Riiiiiiight.
Sorry, no.
So, guess what?
Kirth's progression still has some holes in it, once you remove the scaling abilities properly.
His bonus feat scale still has 9 holes in it to be filled, clearly gaping, waiting for Something.
But it's a whole lot better then that first one.
Anyone who gets suckered into laying out the fighter class like it's in the Core Books should turn around and re-write it properly. Class abilities that scale or don't scale get ONE LINE.
IF you get a bunch of bonus feats, they go on a separate table just like spells would.
And then look at all the bloody holes that are left, and wonder why the fighter is weak.
==Aelryinth
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Give fighters 6-8 skill points per level. There's no real reason not to—it won't encroach on the bard's status as the Skills Guy, and a fighter should be diversely skilled if he's going to pass as a Badass Normal. Roy, from Order of the Stick, is one of the best examples of a properly badass fighter—and some of his most iconic moments involve skill usage. And Roy still has to deal with cross-class skill ranks!
Other changes are needed, naturally, but the talk about "4+int ranks" always bugs me. It seems to be the default assumption and I don't know why. Guys, why are we shooting so low? If any "kill 'em kill 'em kill 'em" martial deserves to have above-average skills, it's the fighter.
My version ends with 7/level, and increases from base 2 over time, you pick additional skills at the same time.
At the same time, it doesn't matter how many skill points you have if you aren't the best person in the party to be using them...someone else does it better they will. So the fighter DOES need to be good at a certain subset of skills...specifically, those dealing with athleticism and combat. The only one to rival him should be a barbarian in pure physical ability...anyone else should just Suck It, Fighterz Rool.
MM does this with martial edge, which is like Bard's Knowledge for fighter skillz. I have no problem with this whatsoever. it means the fighter is really, really good at some skills. Exactly like he should be.
==Aelryinth
No need to get hostile with me. I read your fighter fix before. I have the same opinion on it as I did back then. Its 1st level is way too good. Its two main class features were stolen from other classes. I like some of the secondary class features, but I'm not fond of the execution and direction.Did you read it? Did you even bother?master_marshmallow
Taking features from other classes and giving them to the fighter is still an extremely lazy and lame approach to reworking the fighter.I often feel there's an undue amount of focus on power, DPR, amount of bonus feats, etc with the fighter. What's important is that the fighter is more fun and interesting to play. Honestly, I frequently groan whenever I see a thread about fixing the fighter.
To be perfectly fair: His Fighter completely made sense in terms of later class design and balance vs those other martial builds, and incorporated things that should have been Fighter-only characteristics all along.
In particular, they made an entire invented class (the Brawler) completely unnecessary and repetitive, and put fighter squarely back in command as the Master of Combat feats.
Too Strong? What? You realize he still has to gain levels to take advantage of these 'powerful class abilities', and otherwise they suck, right?
==Aelryinth
Too Strong? What? You realize he still has to gain levels to take advantage of these 'powerful class abilities', and otherwise they suck, right?
The fighter is already one of the best 1st-level dips because they gain a bonus feat and the best armor and weapon proficiencies in the game. Master_marshmellow's fighter fix grants THREE bonus feats (one of them bypassing prerequisites, another a temporary roaming feat) and a +1/+1 to weapon attacks.
That's way too much to give at 1st level, especially to a class that's infamous for having a strong early game but a weak mid-to-late game.