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At first level, the barbarian gets 2 more hp, 2 more skill points, multiple rounds of +2/+2 th/dmg with all weapons, +another 2 hp/level buff, +2 to will saves.
And 40' move.
You can use your first level feat to grab Additional Rage Power, get Superstitious and get an additional save bonus against all magic RIGHT NOW.
That's level ONE.
You want to present a combination from the fighter that is that powerful?
-----------------------
The fighter FINALLY gets a th/dmg buff at level 1! the horrors!
If the fighter as a dip is too strong, then the barbarian as a dip should be totally disallowed.
========================================
And the ranger! At first level, +4 skill points, a favored enemy you can tailor to the campaign, he can track, communicate with wild animals, and, most importantly...he can use a spell charge items with any spell on the ranger list!
Without investing in UMD! CLW wands for the endurance win, every time.
OH, and the good reflex save, just to drive the point in.
If we wait just one more level, he gets that same pre req ignoring combat feat of your choice that the fighter does at 1st.
=========
And the paladin!
Even at first level, he can Smite his big bad foe for a big combat and defense bonus.
Best two save combo in the game.
Detect Evil at will. Who needs Perception?
And just ONE MORE LEVEL...and +Charisma to all saves! CHA CHING!
Dipping? They even have names for all the two level combos for dipping Paladins! ORadins Forever is, like, a chapterhouse!
And then, just like the Ranger, they can use all those wands with paladin spells. More CLWands for the win!
----------------
Dipping as an excuse to neuter the entire class, and make it suck from level 1?
PLEASE. He's finally making it WORTH PLAYING at level 1, and because someone else might dip it, you're opposed.
==Aelryinth
The fighter is already one of the best 1st-level dips because they gain a bonus feat and the best armor and weapon proficiencies in the game.
The reason this is perceived as a problem is that it highlights a system-wide issue: that martial classes, overall, are so weak you have to dumpster-dive for all kinds of contrived combinations just to get them to work.
Notice that NO ONE takes a 1-level dip in sorcerer, despite getting a bunch of nifty spellcasting and an ability. The reason for this is not because 1st level sorcerers get less stuff. The real reason is because staying in sorcerer is so attractive a proposition that you'd have to be an idiot to multiclass out (unless full casting continuation is somehow being offered).
The way to address people taking a 1-level dip in fighter is to make levels 2-20 MORE attractive -- MUCH more! -- not make level 1 less attractive.
The fighter has multiple issues that could be addressed.
1) Out of combat usefulness. Without spells, the only thing that can be done about this is skills. So, give 4+ skill points and a free skill unlock every 5th level. This does step on rogue toes a bit, but there's little else that can be done for out of combat usefulness.
2) Weapon specific builds. The fighter is too locked into a single weapon. Weapon groups could help, but I prefer to give the fighter more choice, so I propose Weapon Inclusion. Weapon Inclusion allows you to apply any weapon specific feats you know to a secondary weapon. The fighter could gain Weapon Inclusion every 4th level.
3) Feats have too many hard to reach prerequisites. My suggestion is to add an ability to bonus feats. When qualifying for bonus feats, you may treat your ability scores as being higher by an amount equal to half your fighter level.
D&D 5E gave Fighters more feats (which are basically PF feat chains, and actually work), stat boosts, and regular attacks than anyone else. Perhaps we could take a hint from that or something?
What if Fighters could take an iterative with BAB = Fighter Level from first level? That would be a pretty nifty class feature.
Maybe Fighters would get some of those neat martial-like spells that casters get, as EX abilities. Dance of 100 cuts, dance of 1000 cuts, bladed dash, named bullet, etc.
Minor correction: 5E gave them more ability score boosts, which can (if the GM allows that optional system) be traded for feats. Important difference.
The base fighter abilities, while relatively few in number, are also pretty nice: 1d10 + level swift action self-heal once per short rest (an hour), an extra standard action once per short rest, the ability to reroll a failed saving throw several times a day, up to double the normal number of attacks in their attack action, and a combat style. They are ridiculously dangerous and tanky.
The fighter is already one of the best 1st-level dips because they gain a bonus feat and the best armor and weapon proficiencies in the game.The reason this is perceived as a problem is that it highlights a system-wide issue: that martial classes, overall, are so weak you have to dumpster-dive for all kinds of contrived combinations just to get them to work.
Notice that NO ONE takes a 1-level dip in sorcerer, despite getting a bunch of nifty spellcasting and an ability. The reason for this is not because 1st level sorcerers get less stuff. The real reason is because staying in sorcerer is so attractive a proposition that you'd have to be an idiot to multiclass out (unless full casting continuation is somehow being offered).
The way to address people taking a 1-level dip in fighter is to make levels 2-20 MORE attractive -- MUCH more! -- not make level 1 less attractive.
Slight adjustment - Blaster casters will dip one level of crossblooded sorc. That's the only popular build I know of.
Carry on!
==Aelryinth
1) Out of combat usefulness. Without spells, the only thing that can be done about this is skills.
Disagree -- see some of my suggestions above. (I'm reading Chessmen of Mars, and Gahan of Gathol, as a textbook fighter, is getting an awful lot of mileage out of his high Charisma backing what seem to be warlord/leadership-type class features.)
2) Weapon specific builds. The fighter is too locked into a single weapon. Weapon groups could help, but I prefer to give the fighter more choice, so I propose Weapon Inclusion. Weapon Inclusion allows you to apply any weapon specific feats you know to a secondary weapon. The fighter could gain Weapon Inclusion every 4th level.
Yep. Or just a higher level "greater weapon aptitude" feature that lets him apply his combat feats to any weapon.
3) Feats have too many hard to reach prerequisites. My suggestion is to add an ability to bonus feats. When qualifying for bonus feats, you may treat your ability scores as being higher by an amount equal to half your fighter level.
I dislike the feat chain prerequisites equally as much, which is why I proposed letting them ignore one prerequisite (either a lower feat in the chain, or an ability score minimum, or a level minimum).
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D&D 5E gave Fighters more feats (which are basically PF feat chains, and actually work), stat boosts, and regular attacks than anyone else. Perhaps we could take a hint from that or something?
What if Fighters could take an iterative with BAB = Fighter Level from first level? That would be a pretty nifty class feature.
Maybe Fighters would get some of those neat martial-like spells that casters get, as EX abilities. Dance of 100 cuts, dance of 1000 cuts, bladed dash, named bullet, etc.
Minor correction: 5E gave them more ability score boosts, which can (if the GM allows that optional system) be traded for feats. Important difference.
The base fighter abilities, while relatively few in number, are also pretty nice: 1d10 + level swift action self-heal once per short rest (an hour), an extra standard action once per short rest, the ability to reroll a failed saving throw several times a day, up to double the normal number of attacks in their attack action, and a combat style. They are ridiculously dangerous and tanky.
That martials and non-magical classes should get more stat boosts is blatantly true. If you don't have magic, you TRAIN MORE.
My fighter gets a +1 to his lowest physical and mental stats every 4 fighter levels. This means it doesn't affect his upside, which might cause balance problems, but covers his weaknesses nicely.
==Aelryinth
The fighter has multiple issues that could be addressed.
1) Out of combat usefulness. Without spells, the only thing that can be done about this is skills. So, give 4+ skill points and a free skill unlock every 5th level. This does step on rogue toes a bit, but there's little else that can be done for out of combat usefulness.2) Weapon specific builds. The fighter is too locked into a single weapon. Weapon groups could help, but I prefer to give the fighter more choice, so I propose Weapon Inclusion. Weapon Inclusion allows you to apply any weapon specific feats you know to a secondary weapon. The fighter could gain Weapon Inclusion every 4th level.
3) Feats have too many hard to reach prerequisites. My suggestion is to add an ability to bonus feats. When qualifying for bonus feats, you may treat your ability scores as being higher by an amount equal to half your fighter level.
1 - Meh, 4+ skill ranks is good, but skill unlocks is more of a roguish thing. Something else for the fighter skill-wise that fits thematically would be good. Things like free-ranks in profession(soldier) and new ways to use it. Versatility with Intimidate. Rolling Acrobatics into combat-worthiness in some way besides "Wow, I rolled really well, so they don't get to AoO me".
2 - Definitely agree about weapon groups.
3 - Why not just drop ability score requirements entirely? Hell, do that AND drop race restrictions. One of the more interesting fight-only feats is locked to JUST DWARVES. #&@! that. Let it be dwarves only for every single other class and archetype combo in the game that is allowed to take the 'fighter-only' feats.
D&D 5E gave Fighters more feats (which are basically PF feat chains, and actually work), stat boosts, and regular attacks than anyone else. Perhaps we could take a hint from that or something?
What if Fighters could take an iterative with BAB = Fighter Level from first level? That would be a pretty nifty class feature.
Maybe Fighters would get some of those neat martial-like spells that casters get, as EX abilities. Dance of 100 cuts, dance of 1000 cuts, bladed dash, named bullet, etc.
Minor correction: 5E gave them more ability score boosts, which can (if the GM allows that optional system) be traded for feats. Important difference.
The base fighter abilities, while relatively few in number, are also pretty nice: 1d10 + level swift action self-heal once per short rest (an hour), an extra standard action once per short rest, the ability to reroll a failed saving throw several times a day, up to double the normal number of attacks in their attack action, and a combat style. They are ridiculously dangerous and tanky.
That martials and non-magical classes should get more stat boosts is blatantly true. If you don't have magic, you TRAIN MORE.
My fighter gets a +1 to his lowest physical and mental stats every 4 fighter levels. This means it doesn't affect his upside, which might cause balance problems, but covers his weaknesses nicely.
==Aelryinth
I can see that to a point. Physical ability scores, yes, but I'm not so sure about mental ability scores. Also, does this paradigm really apply to people like the sorcerer or bard, who just have magic running in their veins and don't need to 'study'?
Funny story: when 5E launched, people took to messageboards to complain that the fighter was a better wizard than the wizard. After all, he gets more ability score boosts than the wizard (two more options of either +2 in one stat or +1 in two stats), so when he got access to spells with the one fighter spellcasting archetype, he was better at it than the full-bore magic guy! Messageboards are silly places.
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skill unlocks isn't a roguish thing...it depends on the skill. Heal is NOT something you expect a Rogue to want to Unlock...but you would an Expert.
Likewise, there's a handful of skills which are perfect skill unlocks...and the fighter is the class that would take them. (Rangers get magic. No skill unlocks for them!)
As for ANY skill...yeah, Rogues (and maybe Experts) should be the only classes that could unlock ANY skill. But fighters? there's definitely a few core ones that fighters should get.
Also, you need modifiers. Getting skills but sucking at them doesn't help you out much at all, in the end.
==Aelryinth
3 - Why not just drop ability score requirements entirely? Hell, do that AND drop race restrictions. One of the more interesting fight-only feats is locked to JUST DWARVES. #&@! that. Let it be dwarves only for every single other class and archetype combo in the game that is allowed to take the 'fighter-only' feats.
Because this is about changes to the Fighter, and not to the game in general, which would boost the non-fighters about as much. Though if you are talking about only letting the bonus feats ignore stats entirely, then that has issues with making a fighter dip even more of an issue.
My suggestion was to strike a middle ground of allowing the fighter to pick up feats outside of his ability range, but not necessarily right away.
3 - Why not just drop ability score requirements entirely? Hell, do that AND drop race restrictions. One of the more interesting fight-only feats is locked to JUST DWARVES. #&@! that. Let it be dwarves only for every single other class and archetype combo in the game that is allowed to take the 'fighter-only' feats.Because this is about changes to the Fighter, and not to the game in general, which would boost the non-fighters about as much. Though if you are talking about only letting the bonus feats ignore stats entirely, then that has issues with making a fighter dip even more of an issue.
My suggestion was to strike a middle ground of allowing the fighter to pick up feats outside of his ability range, but not necessarily right away.
Yes, fighter-only. And I don't see how letting someone take one or two combat feats without worrying about having a 13 in their Dex or Int would break anything. Plus, there's less fiddly numbers stuff this way.
Yes, fighter-only. And I don't see how letting someone take one or two combat feats without worrying about having a 13 in their Dex or Int would break anything. Plus, there's less fiddly numbers stuff this way.
You can dip at any level. An example of abusing your way:
Combat class has 15 dex and Two Weapon Fighting. When they hit 6th BAB level, they dip one level of fighter and grab Improved TWF. They reach BAB 11 and grab a 2nd level of fighter and Greater TWF.
And maybe you think that would be great, but it doesn't help improve the fighter. Or rather, it cheapens what the fighter can do.
At first level, the barbarian gets 2 more hp, 2 more skill points, multiple rounds of +2/+2 th/dmg with all weapons, +another 2 hp/level buff, +2 to will saves.
And 40' move.
You can use your first level feat to grab Additional Rage Power, get Superstitious and get an additional save bonus against all magic RIGHT NOW.
That's level ONE.
You want to present a combination from the fighter that is that powerful?
-----------------------
The fighter FINALLY gets a th/dmg buff at level 1! the horrors!
If the fighter as a dip is too strong, then the barbarian as a dip should be totally disallowed.
========================================And the ranger! At first level, +4 skill points, a favored enemy you can tailor to the campaign, he can track, communicate with wild animals, and, most importantly...he can use a spell charge items with any spell on the ranger list!
Without investing in UMD! CLW wands for the endurance win, every time.
OH, and the good reflex save, just to drive the point in.If we wait just one more level, he gets that same pre req ignoring combat feat of your choice that the fighter does at 1st.
=========
And the paladin!
Even at first level, he can Smite his big bad foe for a big combat and defense bonus.
Best two save combo in the game.
Detect Evil at will. Who needs Perception?
And just ONE MORE LEVEL...and +Charisma to all saves! CHA CHING!
Dipping? They even have names for all the two level combos for dipping Paladins! ORadins Forever is, like, a chapterhouse!
And then, just like the Ranger, they can use all those wands with paladin spells. More CLWands for the win!----------------
Dipping as an excuse to neuter the entire class, and make it suck from level 1?PLEASE. He's finally making it WORTH PLAYING at level 1, and because someone else might dip it, you're opposed.
==Aelryinth
Just a quick correctional note that I should put here: You cannot take Extra Rage Power at 1st level as a Bonus Feat. You need to have the Rage Power class feature, which you do not obtain until 2nd level, unless you're pulling some weird hax where you get a Rage Power at 1st level.
Otherwise, totally agree with all of this.
---
Remember the purpose of an Unchained Fighter is to shore up 2 of their weakest assets: Out-of-Combat Utility, and their crappy Will Saves. They don't really need help with damage (though they can use some help being able to maintain it, but one thing at a time here).
It should also be of note as to what kind of Out-of-Combat Utility that the Fighter should cover. Should he have more Skill Points? Should he have some neat class features that emulate/cause certain effects? etc.
Yes, fighter-only. And I don't see how letting someone take one or two combat feats without worrying about having a 13 in their Dex or Int would break anything. Plus, there's less fiddly numbers stuff this way.You can dip at any level. An example of abusing your way:
Combat class has 15 dex and Two Weapon Fighting. When they hit 6th BAB level, they dip one level of fighter and grab Improved TWF. They reach BAB 11 and grab a 2nd level of fighter and Greater TWF.
And maybe you think that would be great, but it doesn't help improve the fighter. Or rather, it cheapens what the fighter can do.
That's still two less levels of whatever the original combat class would eventually provide that they're now missing out on. That's a ki point, ki power, and other things for the unchained monk. It's rage stuff for the barbarian. It's caster level and lay on hands usages for paladin. The list goes on. Yeah, if you select the proper combat feats, your effectiveness might go up a lot. But this is martials we're talking about; they're NOT the ones breaking the game. Why do we care if this makes them just a little bit better?
Also, I don't understand the logic here. Giving the fighter better options for selecting bonus feats = making the fighter better = making it more attractive for dipping = cheapening the fighter. So better = cheapening? What?
Fighter damage should scale better, at the same rate as everyone else.
Everyone can take weapon focus at first level, it doesn't count.
Level dipping matters, but not when you leave out fair comparisons like the brawler.
The fighter is attractive for dipping because of the bonus feat.
Anything else is just an add on. Take away that bonus feat, and nobody will bother to dip it, because the bonus isn't worth anything. The bonus feat is just a build accelerant, nothing more.
===Aelryinth
The fighter is attractive for dipping because of the bonus feat.
Anything else is just an add on. Take away that bonus feat, and nobody will bother to dip it, because the bonus isn't worth anything. The bonus feat is just a build accelerant, nothing more.
===Aelryinth
I'll partially agree with this. A Cleric/Oracle planning to be melee would really appreciate the Fighter proficiencies; it saves Oracles a Revelation, and a Cleric is much more durable without having to sacrifice his (somewhat weaker) accuracy. The increase in Fortitude Saves may also be a welcome sign, as well as a BAB increase.
I'm not saying that a Cleric/Oracle wouldn't want the Bonus Feat, more that it's not the defining factor, and that there are more merits to dipping 1 level Fighter than "Hurr Durr Bonus Feat". Honestly, you could get away with dipping 2 levels (Anti)Paladin as a Cleric (or Oracle) with some builds if you need only the proficiencies, and you would be an absolute powerhouse in comparison to dipping Fighter.
Fighter damage should scale better, at the same rate as everyone else.
Everyone can take weapon focus at first level, it doesn't count.Level dipping matters, but not when you leave out fair comparisons like the brawler.
That's what the Weapon Specialization and their Greater counterparts are for; better scaling.
Also, Fighters are one of the few classes that can unconditionally reduce or bypass DR/- entirely (if spec'd right).
I took a stab at an Unchained Fighter design.
Let me know what you guys think. Also, some other suggestions for Combat Arts would be appreciated.
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Steely Resolve: This seems like inefficient design; why not just give him a good Will save progression and be done with it?
Armor Training, Weapon Training: I'd still like to see these combined into a single scaling bonus (that applies to all weapons, not grups). Less nitpicky and less clutter.
Combat Arts: These would be fine as feats, honestly. They don't really address the fighter's total lack of narrative power; doing so requires actual class features.
I'd also like to see fighters have a useful way to protect their friends in combat.
Steely Resolve: This seems like inefficient design; why not just give him a good Will save progression and be done with it?
Armor Training, Weapon Training: I'd still like to see these combined into a single scaling bonus (that applies to all weapons, not grups). Less nitpicky and less clutter.
Combat Arts: These would be fine as feats, honestly. They don't really address the fighter's total lack of narrative power; doing so requires actual class features.
I'd also like to see fighters have a useful way to protect their friends in combat.
The intent behind that was to give him some other capstones besides the other 2 he had (and they kind of suck anyway). Additionally, the only complaint you ever hear about Fighters with Will Saves is in regards to Dominate/Charm Person and such to be used against the party; that's it. Of course, the argument can be made that such spells constitute 80% of Will Saves, I don't think it should be intended to make Fighters good against effects such as Channel Energy, or Inflict Wounds/Harm, which can require a Will Save especially when they aren't supposed to (really) have magical power in the first place. Also, the idea is to shore up the weakness of a poor Will Save, not eliminate it entirely. If the intent was to eliminate it entirely, then yes, I'd apply Good Will Saves.
I kind of did that as the new-and-improved Weapon Mastery Capstone. He gains all weapon proficiency, can use weapons that other people simply just can't, and applies Weapon Training bonuses to all weapons he uses.
If they were feats, then anyone and their grandma could take them. It'd also be no different than the Fighter-only feats we have now, where the Bonus Feats of the Fighter essentially becomes their #1 class feature, which was already boring, bland, and eventually became cookie-cutter. The intent behind them being Fighter-specific, and being associated with Fighter levels is to give the Fighter some class-only abilities that nothing outside of Fighter levels could represent. Additionally, I technically did make them feats, since you can take Extra Combat Art as a regular feat, it's just that you still have to meet the pre-requisites of the Combat Arts as normal.
There is a Combat Art that allows you to let an adjacent ally use your AC in place of theirs as an Immediate Action, and you gain a +4 Dodge Bonus to AC (which isn't conveyed to your ally); it's called Reckless Aide. I do agree there should be more Combat Arts which allow such things, but I can't seem to come up with any of them. Maybe allow them to emulate Shield Other as another Combat Art?
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Let him spend a Stamina point to interpose him between an ally and an incoming missile or spell effect, as an immediate action. And he shouldn't have to pick that from a menu; it should be just something he can do.
Narrative power still needs to be addressed, and, honestly, that's where most of the fighter's failings lie.
Example: At 10th level or so, adventurers need to travel large distances without worrying about terrain - the wizard with overland flight and teleport, the druid wildshaped, the cleric with a flying planar ally, and the cavalier with a winged mount. The fighter gets no class feature for this.
Example: At 11th level, you should be able to avoid fighting whole crowds of mooks, without harming them. The wizard can cast stuff like mass suggestion and repulsion. The cleric can use sanctuary or any of a dozen other options. The bard can fascinate them with performance. The rogue would be able to sneak past them, if the Stealth skill actually worked. The fighter can... attempt to intimidate them one at a time? Not cutting it.
Example: At 13th level, no one else needs to worry about ambushes at night. The wizard has magnificent mansion, the cleric can plane shift to the Plane of Slumberland, even the bard at least gets an alarm spell. The fighter can... sleep in armor. Yay.
I'm not sure why rangers and two weapons became a thing, but you certainly expect them to be awesome with a bow. My point about that proposed fighter "combat style" having was that you don't make the fighter "better" by just giving lots more ways to take bonus feats (particularly in a way that is simply a carbon copy of the ranger style), but somehow, Aelrynth, you turned that into my having a ranger love-fest.
I agree with Kirth that fighters need more narrative options, but I'd rather see fighters with a good Reflex than a good Will. (All three saves should be a monk hallmark.) Auto-scaling combat feats would be so much easier than faffing around with prerequisites, but that's unlikely to happen.
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I can't say I've been following this thread super-closely, but I kinda feel like Fighters shouldn't be the best at damage. I'd honestly leave that to the Barbarian. What I feel is a better niche for the Fighter is battlefield control through Combat Manuevers. When I think Fighter, I want to see a guy who can take tactical action on the battlefield instead of just hulking out like Mr. Barby. Other classes should certainly have access to manuevers, but Fighters should be the absolute masters of them. Stamina rules might help a bit with that, but it could be more pronounced.
I also feel like it would be wise to bump up his skills to at least 4. It's apparent that the Fighter has a s%@! skill list, so I'd at least add Acrobatics and some other Knowledge (maybe even a choice to build backstory) and maybe bonuses to Knowledge checks concerning battles and wars. Maybe throw disable device in there, although that's probably encroaching on the sneaky guy niche. I'm not really sure about face skills, I'd rather have the Cavelier be the pretty face martial.
Also, something I just noticed completely unrelated: why does Gunslinger have Heal as a class skill?
Let him spend a Stamina point to interpose him between an ally and an incoming missile or spell effect, as an immediate action. And he shouldn't have to pick that from a menu; it should be just something he can do.
Not every Fighter should have the ability to just jump into the direction of a ranged projectile. There are feats to help simulate that (Bodyguard + In Harm's Way). Additionally, that would be very difficult to adjudicate, as a lot of spells simply require line of sight, and a Fighter being in the way wouldn't constitute disrupting said line of sight. Hell, even for effects like Fireball, it would not work.
I mean, it might work for things like Scorching Ray or attacks from a Bow, but all that would do, per RAW, is provide a Cover Bonus to the ally, in which case the Reckless Aide Combat Art can already be a better action.
It'd be simpler to argue that the Fighter can perform a Move Action as an Immediate Action (which can only be done outside their turn) for 1 point, or spend 2 points to do it as a Swift Action during their turn. This provides solid utility, since this can help in creating a false sense of security in regards to being able to draw weapons to threaten with (and therefore make an enemy reconsider his turn), or being able to pseudo-pounce.
That being said, I'm on the fence of making it an "Every-Fighter" ability. On one hand, being able to perform a Move and a Full Attack would be well in line with shoring up one of their martial weaknesses, and is something that plagues most every Fighter. On the other hand, it can provide some unwanted utility (being able to draw a weapon in the middle of a creatures turn without having to Ready, or be able to run out of an enemy's full attack when they're performing it) that is perhaps unintentional to fulfilling the true purpose (being able to initiate Full Attacks better).
It'd need some tinkering, but I'll consider it.
**EDIT**
I don't think a Fighter needs to be shored up in mass-distance travel. That's a feature that the Cavalier should already be advantageous with, and is something that a Fighter shouldn't have to worry about. I mean, maybe give him stuff to allow him to move normal speed when climbing or swimming, but that's about all that should happen there.
As for that, I figure an inverted "Insolent Gibe" Combat Art would be appropriate. Could be similar to a Dragon's Frightful Presence, where the Fighter makes a single Intimidate check for 3 Stamina and applies the result to all enemies; successful check results in Frightened/Panicked enemies, but I feel this could be a little too powerful without some extra prerequisites (Dazzling Display?) or limitations.
Being able to sleep in armor is already a benefit when resting. It's a huge benefit, especially if you're wearing armor that provides a large bonus to your AC. I don't know what you want to give them, because I don't think Fighters should have Scent or some sort of "Sixth Sense" crap.
I don't think a Fighter needs to be shored up in mass-distance travel.
I feel this could be a little too powerful without some extra prerequisites (Dazzling Display?) or limitations.
I don't know what you want to give them, because I don't think Fighters should have Scent or some sort of "Sixth Sense" crap.
I would have followed up with responses and still more examples (there are a very large number), but your answers have been very consistent: Fighters Don't Get Nice Things. Or, at least, fighters should not be allowed to have any influence on anything outside weapon range, or anything outside of combat.
I would have followed up with responses and still more examples (there are a very large number), but your answers have been very consistent: Fighters Don't Get Nice Things. Or, at least, fighters should not be allowed to have any influence on anything outside weapon range, or anything outside of combat.I don't think a Fighter needs to be shored up in mass-distance travel.
I feel this could be a little too powerful without some extra prerequisites (Dazzling Display?) or limitations.
I don't know what you want to give them, because I don't think Fighters should have Scent or some sort of "Sixth Sense" crap.
I'm sorry, why don't we just give Fighters an Extraordinary Constant At-Will Fly Ability equal to their character level, the ability to make Wish Sno-Cone Machines, and All-Around Vision with Blindsight 300 ft. That'll make it worthwhile to play them again. Except, I might as well just be a damn Dragon if we're going to go that route. See the point here?
Not wanting to step on other classes toes or be an essential mimic of another class doesn't equate to a "Fighters don't get nice things" approach. And quite frankly, there should be some things that the Fighter should not the best at, nor should they have anything to solve those problems that they might face within their chassis.
You said mass-distance travel is an issue. Paladins have this issue if they don't Divine Bond a mount (truthfully, a lot of them don't). Barbarians have this issue if they don't archetype with a Mount. The base Fighter has this problem too.
Rogues/Ninjas have this issue and can't do anything about it. Samurai have this issue and can't do anything about it. This list goes on and on; this is something that a caster can fix, and not even all casters can fix that problem. If Fighters are supposed to be casters, then why the hell do we have a Fighter class?
Just because I feel there should be limitations to an ability (it can be quite prone to abuse and trivializing all sorts of encounters unintentionally) doesn't mean that the subject they get shouldn't be nice. Hell, if you actually read my Insolent Gibe Combat Art, you'd see that it's actually a very powerful distracting ability, since it forces enemies to attack you by any means at their disposal, and they divert all of their energy to do that. Giving party members the ability to shine in a way that no other class can emulate is certainly a sign that I want Fighters to have nice things.
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I'm sorry, why don't we just give Fighters an Extraordinary Constant At-Will Fly Ability equal to their character level, the ability to make Wish Sno-Cone Machines, and All-Around Vision with Blindsight 300 ft. That'll make it worthwhile to play them again. Except, I might as well just be a damn Dragon if we're going to go that route. See the point here?
Actually, yes, I do. The point here is that casters can already do all those things, and a lot more. They can fly all day, and make wish Sno-Cone Machines, and give themselves the special senses, and can summon, control, or actually become dragons. That's the baseline level of competence for a high-level adventurer.
The fighter doesn't have to do those same things, but he needs to be able to do things that are equally as impressive, and/or that have an equal effect on events. And that means if he's confined to standing around and full-attacking melee opponents and can't do anything else, he's not making the bar -- he's a caddy, not a full party member.
Look at what spells can do, at a given level. That sets a benchmark for the types of things adventurers should be able to do -- not the same things, preferably, but different things for different classes that are equally as game-changing.
If you don't set limits on how far you're willing to take your Fighter, you might as well rewrite Pathfinder.
Funny you should mention that!
(But it's not exactly unprecedented, either.)
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I'd would say give the fighter some bomb ass non-lethal hand to hand takedown moves, but some class already probably has that.
I'll settle for something like "mass intimidation," to get out of fights and scare off potential enemy npcs.
I don't know. I feel like now I'll just tread into another class of some sort inadvertently, without even knowing it. Maybe, there is just too much classes, classes that have abilities that should have gone to one of the core classes or something.
So your argument is to basically make Fighters into Spellcasters. Oh, hello Magus, didn't see you there!
So we know that's been done before, and we know it doesn't particularly solve the problem that Full Casters will always dominate. Got any other bright ideas?
I mean, look at Barbarians. Look at Paladins. These are the top 2 martial classes in the game, and quite frankly, they have just about as much impact in a late game as the Fighter would: They hit things. They take a beating. Repeats ad nauseum until players get bored.
But they're much better built classes, and nobody complains about how weak they are, or how little they contribute, because they have unique mechanics. Spell Sunder is one of the most powerful Martial abilities in the game because it gives Barbarians the ability to power through something that was otherwise impossible to overcome. Immunities and Auras are one of the most powerful Martial abilities in the game because it gives Paladins a ridiculous amount of survivability, and makes Casters change their tactics (since most save/suck spells won't work on them properly, and certain battlefield control spells).
Hell, even the Ranger is a good martial, if only because of their ability to circumvent feat pre-requisites and achieve things at levels earlier than any class thought possible.
The reason Rogues aren't valued is because their class features require stupid crap to be lined up through an impossible a clunky fashion, and even that payoff is mediocre compared to the other martials who abilities are much better. But the apparent pay-off is "skills"? That classes like the Bard and an Investigator can do much better at, and then some, not to mention retain some sort of castability?
And so, that's why Unchained Rogue became one of the few ways to become Dexterity to Damage (though Sneak Attack still sucks, as usual), because it was a unique mechanic that a lot of people wanted to explore (and by the math, it still sucks in comparison to the classic methods, but it certainly gives the illusion of doing something positive).
And that's what I've been trying to do here. Being able to provide an ally your own AC in place of theirs can be a very powerful (and unreplicated ability). Tack on the ability to keep living despite having negative HP greater than your Constitution makes monster abilities such as Regeneration seem like a joke. Black Knight from Monty Python, anyone?
They might not be extremely powerful; hell, they might not really do a whole hell of a lot, but it's unique, and because of that, it can provide an illusion of effectiveness.
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For me a high-level martial should fight like the over the top fighting scenes of Final Fantasy 7: Advent Children.
Massive jumps, impossible balancing feats, absurd riding skills, supreme endurance. Swim against a waterfall, run over falling debris, balancing on water, run for DAYS without getting tired, hold their breaths for hours.
Terrifying Presence from Fallout, that is a fun perk.
I rather fancy an Intimidate based version of Consummate Liar.
For me a high-level martial should fight like the over the top fighting scenes of Final Fantasy 7: Advent Children.
Massive jumps, impossible balancing feats, absurd riding skills, supreme endurance. Swim against a waterfall, run over falling debris, balancing on water, run for DAYS without getting tired, hold their breaths for hours.
Mostly agree. Skill unlocks do this to a point, but may not go far enough.
The fighter is already one of the best 1st-level dips because they gain a bonus feat and the best armor and weapon proficiencies in the game.The reason this is perceived as a problem is that it highlights a system-wide issue: that martial classes, overall, are so weak you have to dumpster-dive for all kinds of contrived combinations just to get them to work.
Notice that NO ONE takes a 1-level dip in sorcerer, despite getting a bunch of nifty spellcasting and an ability. The reason for this is not because 1st level sorcerers get less stuff. The real reason is because staying in sorcerer is so attractive a proposition that you'd have to be an idiot to multiclass out (unless full casting continuation is somehow being offered).
The way to address people taking a 1-level dip in fighter is to make levels 2-20 MORE attractive -- MUCH more! -- not make level 1 less attractive.
I never said the core fighter should have their 1st level nerfed.
Don't take what I said out of context just so you can beat it with a strawman argument. This is one of the reasons I don't enjoy having discussions with you, Kirth.
This is my "Unchained Fighter".
Funnily enough, Lemmy, I was looking at your original Fighter revamp just a few hours ago. :)
Giving out weapon profs and armor profs only at Character level 1 also contrives a lot of dippers. Ditto the +2 'good save' bonus.
==Aelryinth
Funnily enough, Lemmy, I was looking at your original Fighter revamp just a few hours ago. :)
Thanks! There is even more homebrew nonsense in my profile if you like it. Also, here. :)
Giving out weapon profs and armor profs only at Character level 1 also contrives a lot of dippers. Ditto the +2 'good save' bonus.
==Aelryinth
I don't care. That Fighter has plenty of reasons to stay in the class. Loyalty shall be rewarded. Let the dippers have their fun.
Also, you were the one who convinced me to add Weapon Training at 1st level. So screw you! XD
Combat Art Ideas (possibly poorly worded)
Crowd Control - the fighter can expend 3 points of stamina to make an Intimidate Check against a group of enemies. He must be over level 10 and have Intimidating Prowess to select this combat art.
Vigilant Respite - when resting, the fighter can choose to sleep lightly when resting. This confers all of the regular benefits of resting but
only restores a quarter of his maximum stamina. A fighter who rests this does not suffer the normal penalties for being attacked in his sleep. He must be at least level 12 to select this combat art.Leaps and Bounds - for every two class levels the fighter can spend 1 point of stamina to increase the distance of his jumps and long jumps by 5ft per point spent. With over 10 ranks in acrobatics, he can increase his range by 10ft. per point.
Not bad suggestions.
Remember that Insolent Gibe does convey the Shaken condition as well, so it wouldn't stack with the Crowd Control (it is essentially the same thing). I probably should apply the Intimidating Prowess feat to the requirement, though.
As for the resting part, here's what I came up with:
Vigilance: The fighter has learned to remain alert, even while sleeping or casually standing watch. When the fighter is at rest, he may regain only half of his maximum Stamina to not be considered flat-footed or helpless. He is also immune to coup de grace and is treated as having Blindsense 30 ft while resting. A fighter must be 2nd level and possess the Endurance feat in order to select this Combat Art.
Lastly, my take on the jumping:
Forceful Vault: The fighter uses his extreme strength instead of his agility to spring over or across obstacles in his path. When performing Acrobatics to jump, he may spend 1 Stamina point to substitute his Dexterity bonus with his Strength bonus on his skill check. Additionally, the Fighter increases his distance result by 1 foot for vertical jumps or 5 feet for horizontal jumps for every 2 Fighter levels he possesses. The fighter must be 4th level in order to select this Combat Art.
Funnily enough, Lemmy, I was looking at your original Fighter revamp just a few hours ago. :)Thanks! There is even more homebrew nonsense in my profile if you like it. Also, here. :)
Giving out weapon profs and armor profs only at Character level 1 also contrives a lot of dippers. Ditto the +2 'good save' bonus.
==Aelryinth
I don't care. That Fighter has plenty of reasons to stay in the class. Loyalty shall be rewarded. Let the dippers have their fun.
Also, you were the one who convinced me to add Weapon Training at 1st level. So screw you! XD
Eh, I'm not saying change the class. Change the rules for level 1 characters. Make sure there's stuff you only get at CHARACTER level 1, to reflect those years of training. Making Armor/Weapon Profs harder to come by actually gives those things some value.
==Aelryinth
Eh, I'm not saying change the class. Change the rules for level 1 characters. Make sure there's stuff you only get at CHARACTER level 1, to reflect those years of training. Making Armor/Weapon Profs harder to come by actually gives those things some value.
==Aelryinth
Like I said, I don't care that much about dipping if the class rewards characters who stick with it.
Besides, changing the 1st level rules are beyond the scope of the homebrew. And doesn't change much, anyway... You can "dip" Fighter before taking levels in whatever class you want to focus on.
Also, why do Rangers get Endurance for free and I am called blasphemous for implying that fighters should as well?
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If you have to break the fundamental rules concerning character levels in order to balance your class, that should be a sign you wrote a poorly designed class.
It's too common I criticize someone's class as having too strong of a 1st level, and their response involves a rant that throws the entire multiclassing system under the bus in order to defend their design. This isn't how a game designer should think.