So, I had and idea. It takes root in the insight that bards, when it comes right down to it, aren't that reliant on charisma.
Basically, she's meant to play like you'd play a barbarian, but more versatile.
Statline: Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 7, Cha 11.
NG Dawnflower Dervish bard of sarenrae.
Race doesn't matter, but one of the demi-humans could be nice for the extra strength. If you absolutely must play something with a penalty to charisma, make sure it has a bonus to one of your physical stats so you can reroute points from there to make up for the loss.
Feats:
1 - Combat Reflexes. If you're half-elf or human, EWP(Fauchard) is a good idea here.
3 - Iron Will, becuase will saves are annoying to fail.
5 - Power Attack
7 - Improved Initiative
9 - Arcane Strike, maybe?
11 - Improved Critical(Fauchard), if you're not proficienct, Toughness is fun too.
Stat Boosts
4: +1 to Cha, so you can cast 2nd level spells. Perfect level, too.
8: +1 Str, because you're here to wreck faces.
12: +1 more Str.
Essential Gear: Reach Weapon of choice (longspear or fauchard), and a headband of +2 charisma acquired before or at level 7. Slightly before is better.
Fun Spells:
1 - Cure Light Wounds, Feather Fall, Grease, Minor Image, Vanish
2 - Alter Self, Heroism, Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Tongues
3 - Dispel Magic, Displacement, Haste, Phantom Steed
4 - Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement, Greater Invisibility, Legend Lore
I think she'd be a fairly effective warrior. She winds up with a strength somewhere around 26 at level 12, assuming a +4 belt. She also only uses two things from out of core, namely the Dawnflower Dervish archetype, and the Fauchard, so she's nicely simple, too.
Spells provide a tonne of versatility that a barbarian would have a hard time copying. She can teleport, fly with phantom steed, become invisible, immune to grapple, cast haste on herself, speak any language, and reveal invisible creatures.
The Fauchard probably isn't PFS legal, it's from a pretty obscure sourcebook, but everything else should be.
What do you think? Is this something painstakingly obvious, that people have been doing forever? Is not going charisma-focused shooting myself in the foot? Is it heresy of the highest order, for playing against type?
What could I do to make it better? I made it mostly from the CRB, with a few things I remember thrown in as extras, so I might be overlooking some very obvious tricks.
When battledancing, she deals 1d8+11(1d10 with the fauchard) damage at first level with a to hit of +7, which is nice. Reach and Combat Reflexes too, so they get hit if they try to approach.
What I'm really interested in is if you think she could replace the barbarian in a party. That's pretty much the role I intended her for. It trades some hit points and base attack for alternative defenses, (Mirror Image at 4th level, for example) and uses heroism and inspire courage/inspire greatness to do what I hope is comparable damage.
This is a workable character, but certainly not as strong as a barbarian in melee. Lowish CHR bards are fairly common (although usually I see a 14ish start, not an 11) and they work fine since many bards don't cast spells with saves anyway.
For what you want though, I think a bloodrager or skald might suit you better.
This is a workable character, but certainly not as strong as a barbarian in melee. Lowish CHR bards are fairly common (although usually I see a 14ish start, not an 11) and they work fine since many bards don't cast spells with saves anyway.
For what you want though, I think a bloodrager or skald might suit you better.
Bloodrager's spells are too slow - they won't really be up in time to be relevant.
Skjald... Maybe. Raging song is kind of neat, but he'd be worse at melee than this girl, due to smaller bonuses, and Inspire Greatness gives more temporary hp (and proper temporary hp at that) anyway.
Why'd she be weaker than a barbarian in melee? I get the Hp thing, but AC is comparable (barbarian is behind by 2 for the first 5 levels, gets even when he picks up beast totem at 6th, and pulls ahead by 1 at levels 8 and beyond, less if he goes for Reckless Abandon) but she has crazy miss chance from Mirror Image for a few of the fights to make up for that. A first level barbarian would have +1 to hit & +4 to damage over her, but since they're both doing regular overkills, it's unlikely to matter that much.
Over the course of 12 levels, to-hit wise, the barb would have +2 from base attack(+3, but one of these goes to Power attack), +1 from furious weapon, which she can't use, +4 from reckless abandon, and +3 from rage. That's a +10 advantage to hit, and something like a +13 advantage in damage.
In return, she gets to have +2 from heroism, +6 from Inspire Courage, so +8 to hit & +6 to damage. Overall, a barbarian hits at +2, and does 7 more damage per swing. She can also haste herself, but that's one of those things that barbarians will be buying for himself. It does give her a gold advantage to have it natively, but ehh.
I mean, yes, you are a little worse at melee, but we're not talking about an insurmountable difference, I don't think. I mean, she gets to cast spells in return for a couple points of damage lost.
I think you already answered why they would be weaker in Melee when you worked out how they would be weaker in melee.
In addition, it is a team game. It is pretty rare that you don't have someone in the party who is going to haste everyone, which means you probably don't have any advantage there, so the barbarians higher BAB will also mean more attacks per round.
Spells are cool, but any round you are casting a spell you aren't attacking, which means if you are counting on spells to bring you up to snuff or shore up your AC you are falling even further behind in the damage game.
Like I said, the character is definitely playable. Probably not quite as good as most dedicated melee and probably weaker than other Bards in terms of actually increasing a party's effectiveness, but a good character that certainly could be fun to play. It works out about like most of the other 6 level caster classes, which can hold their own in melee and still have a few tricks. Absolutely nothing wrong with them, indeed probably the best classes in the game.
Bottom line, will it work? Yes. Is it as good at melee as a Barbarian or as versatile and good at party buffing as a vanilla bard? No.
It is fine, since the bonuses of doubled inspire courage actually puts your attack bonus at 'full BAB with an attack booster mechanic' range (15 BAB+8= 23, on par with barbarian's 20+4=24).
But if you want to be the most damaging creature possible, you want TWF or archery. It is just the nature of your boosting mechanic- it isn't a stat booster (like rage), it is a bonus on EACH AND EVERY HIT. So it works well with styles with a lot of hits.
Now, truth be told you can actually get TWF feats while still being str based. Here are the example stats:
STR: 16 DEX: 16 CON: 14 INT: 7 WIS: 7 CHA: 13
I lowered strength a smidge (but remember, this is still preracial, so you can easily bring it up to 18), and used that to raise dex to 16. That, and maybe a 4th level ability score adjustment (or heck, you are 3/4th BAB, 8th level works too), and you have enough dex for all the good TWF feats (only greater TWF, which gives a hit at BAB-12, isn't covered; and who cares?). And there was a little left over for CHA, as you can tell.
Now, you for a strength based TWF build, I would advise a double weapon. They can be used as a 2 handed weapon to take advantage of power attack/str for one big hit when you move, and they can serve as a light/1handed combo when you full attack to take advantage your doubled inspire courage. Luckily, there has been a recent great addition to simple weapons that is also a decent double weapon- The weighted spear (spear with one end has a mace head, basically).
With all TWF, doubled inspire courage, and arcane strike, you will be one of the best blenders in the game.
It is fine, since the bonuses of doubled inspire courage actually puts your attack bonus at 'full BAB with an attack booster mechanic' range.
But if you want to be the most damaging creature possible, you want TWF or archery. It is just the nature of your boosting mechanic- it isn't a stat booster (like rage), it is a bonus on EACH AND EVERY HIT. So it works well with styles with a lot of hits.
Now, truth be told you can actually get TWF feats while still being str based. Here are the example stats:
STR: 16 DEX: 16 CON: 14 INT: 7 WIS: 7 CHA: 13
I lowered strength a smidge (but remember, this is still preracial, so you can easily bring it up to 18), and used that to raise dex to 16. That, and maybe a 4th level ability score adjustment (or heck, you are 3/4th BAB, 8th level works too), and you have enough dex for all the good TWF feats (only greater TWF, which gives a hit at BAB-12, isn't covered; and who cares?). And there was a little left over for CHA, as you can tell.
Now, you for a strength based TWF build, I would advise a double weapon. They can be used as a 2 handed weapon to take advantage of power attack/str when you move, and they can serve as a light/1handed combo when you full attack to take advantage your doubled inspire courage. Luckily, there has been a recent great addition to simple weapons that is also a decent double weapon- The weighted spear (spear with one end has a mace head, basically).
With all TWF, doubled inspire courage, and arcane strike, you will be one of the best blenders in the game.
Oh, that's a nice idea. I went two-handed mainly for the reach, which in addition to Combat Reflexes should net her a bunch of AoOs, maybe not enough to make up for the lost iterative, but probably enough to get her close. It also helps her to cast and fight in the same turn.
Still, I like the concept. With the higher charisma, you don't need to devote your level-increase to that, so it frees up your stat increase at 8th level.
For feat track, maybe something like this:
1 - Two-weapon fighting (lingering performance for human)
3 - Arcane Strike or Power Attack.
5 - The other one.
9 - Improved Two-weapon Fighting
11 - Double Slice
You'd have to go with a double weapon, as you say, in order to cast spells while using your weapon, but that's not the end of the world.
Well, you could also use a cestus and a 1 handed weapon. The cestus, unlike brass knuckles, does not interfere with spell casting.
The main advantage of this method is that you can have better critical weapons, such as using that nice scimitar proficiency.
The disadvantage is that, typically, you have to deal with the fact that you can't easily take things like weapon focus to cover up some of the TWF problem.