Proclamations: Wait, what?


Hell's Rebels


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm trying to make sense of the proclamations. I get that they're supposed to oppress and enrage the people, and also to convey a sense of Thrune's malicious whimsy. But...

1) ...why in Asmodeus' name would Thrune do this? He's got a clear goal: turning into a genius locus. Surely the smart play is not to rile up the population, but rather to rule quietly and efficiently while setting up his transition to immortality. Why buy trouble this way?

2) Also, if you're a Lawful Evil tyrant, random proclamations about mint and whatnot don't seem like a good thematic fit. Curfew, sure. Crank up taxes, absolutely. Nasty public torture and executions, you bet. But "nobody can drink tea at night" and other pointless proclamations that serve no purpose but to flaunt your power and annoy people? I know arguing alignment is a mug's game, but that realy seems more Chaotic.

3) What's so enraging about the final proclamation? I mean, other than that it is ONE MORE completely stupid and pointless law. But nobody in the crowd seems to be a ship's captain, and it's never mentioned whether this will be a serious problem for the city. (Also, any DM using this will have to pause and explain what "squassation" is.) I could accept it as a straw-that-breaks-the-camel's-back type thing, but surely the author could have come up with something more thematic and/or connected to the main plot?

Am I alone in this?

Doug M.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.

The point of the proclamations is control. Some of these do lend themselves to discouraging rabble rousing, but others are "because I can". Barzalai is creating situations where the citizens either comply with his wishes and yield to him -or- one where he can dish out horrible punishment to make people afraid of him. It's conditioning the populace to comply with anything he asks, no matter how ridiculous, and be fearful of the consequences for failing to do so. Plus, many of these proclamations are ones that any Dottari squad could easily "frame" a citizen for failing to meet should Barzalai need them made an example of. A population that feels powerless and afraid is less likely to rise up. Clearly, that isn't going to last long thanks to the PCs.

As for tea, it is likely just him imposing his personal preferences. Again, its control. "I am right, always." is the message here. It could also be...

From PathfinderWiki's Entry on Milani wrote:


In peacetime, her followers demonstrate their obedience by planting and cultivating roses or brewing and sharing tea, then praying to her while inhaling their scent.

Which is extrapolated from the Obedience for Milani printed in Hell's Rebels Player's Guide.

The final proclamation is important in that he is actively removing leaders with agency and the means to come and go from the city. This causes problems for smugglers and leaves their crews, who may not always be in the know of current proclamations, vulnerable. Ships' crews not being citizens, he wants to be able to (again) exercise control. It's the end cap to the process he began with the Night of Ashes, which was about removing possible rebel leaders before proclamations. This helps make sure no other outsiders step in to fill the void.

As for not being thematic, I fail to see how? This is a port city known for being lax in enforcing Thrune's laws when there aren't Hellknights or officials from Egorian around to make them. Telling the captains they are confined to their ships and no longer have any rights within the city is a pretty clear message to them that the city is no longer one they have any freedom in.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Also, the penalty to breaking the previous proclamations was "pay a fine." Now the penalty is torture, and that's the step too far that goads the protest to turn into a riot. Additonally, there were agitators in the crowd whipping them into a frenzy for just this reason - he allowed the protest to organize so he could put it down. It was supposed to crush the will of the Kintargans. It ends up galvanizing the PCs into reforming the Ravens.

Grand Lodge

BDK86 seems to put it in perspective pretty well, but I would add this, all of this activity keeps the rest of House Thrune at arms length. Chances are that if the Queen found out what was happening, she would crush her cousin.

Sovereign Court

As an example of oppressive proclamations, remember the origin of English most famous four letter word.

Use this one instead if necessary if you want to really anger citizens. :)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Yeah, the fact that this new penalty not only introduces toture to the scene is pretty significant. Furthermore, it's also the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. And finally, it's an insult to a city that depends on sea trade. Basically, what folks above allready said.

As for WHY Thrune's issuing these proclamations? It's purely a power rush for him. He does it because he can, because he's an egotistical maniac. Furthermore, the reasons the proclamations are what they are are due to deep seated psychological issues that will be revealed in the final adventure.

To address the OP's original concerns:

1) Because he enjoys it. He's arrogant and doesn't think this silly little backwater can or will do anything about it, so he starts issuing petty proclamations just to be a jerk and to stroke his own ego. As the AP goes on, the proclamations escalate and things get out of hand. In effect... it's a character flaw that helps the PCs rally against him. He's not a perfect villain. He has disadvantages, and his ego and cruelty are one of them. They make him more interesting than a cookie-cutter number-crunched no-nonsense villain.

2) Not every lawful evil person is exactly the same. And since the proclamations ARE laws, there's nothing chaotic about them, as far as Barzillai sees it. It is, in fact, chaotic to BREAK his proclamations.

3) This one's been pretty well answered already.

Dark Archive

James Jacobs wrote:

Yeah, the fact that this new penalty not only introduces toture to the scene is pretty significant. Furthermore, it's also the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. And finally, it's an insult to a city that depends on sea trade. Basically, what folks above allready said.

As for WHY Thrune's issuing these proclamations? It's purely a power rush for him. He does it because he can, because he's an egotistical maniac. Furthermore, the reasons the proclamations are what they are are due to deep seated psychological issues that will be revealed in the final adventure.

The grain thing made me raise an eyebrow (I work in mental health). Glad to know my hunch may be right.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I was more perturbed by his first words in the AP,“Ah, my adoring little chickadees"; I hadn't seen him as W. C. Fields prior to that, now I have problems not...

Paizo Employee Creative Director

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Darrell Impey UK wrote:
I was more perturbed by his first words in the AP,“Ah, my adoring little chickadees"; I hadn't seen him as W. C. Fields prior to that, now I have problems not...

Feel free to replace "chickadees" with any insult you wish, including ones that we likely wouldn't be able to get away with in print due to the weird sort of freakout folks have about profanity in RPGs...


5 people marked this as a favorite.

Goddamn f**+ing profanity!

That shit is f#&@ing everywhere these days.

Verdant Wheel

I am not an expert in North American history, but there wasn't a independecy war that started with a tea revolution ? Forbid tea could be a out of the game symbol that he ruled out hope for freedom.


Draco Bahamut wrote:
I am not an expert in North American history, but there wasn't a independecy war that started with a tea revolution ? Forbid tea could be a out of the game symbol that he ruled out hope for freedom.

As Time Squad taught us, tea is for Loyalist sissies.

Real American Men© drink coffee.

Dark Archive

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Not only that, Draco, but after the Tea Party, the beverage became synonymous with Tory loyalism. Consumption fell off in the States, and a different hot caffeinated beverage, coffee, took its place - and honestly, tea's never really been able to make up that lost ground here in America.

On a related note, coffeehouses were already a fixture in the States due to the Tea Tax, and while they didn't serve coffee exclusively (they often also sold ale, spirits, and, yes, tea), as the Revolution began in earnest, coffeehouses were a favored place to meet and discuss plans between the conspirators. Just one more reason I enjoy this AP so far - Laria's coffeehouse is just continuing the grand tradition of overthrowing a government from an establishment serving the drink of the people.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
James Jacobs wrote:
Darrell Impey UK wrote:
I was more perturbed by his first words in the AP,“Ah, my adoring little chickadees"; I hadn't seen him as W. C. Fields prior to that, now I have problems not...
Feel free to replace "chickadees" with any insult you wish, including ones that we likely wouldn't be able to get away with in print due to the weird sort of freakout folks have about profanity in RPGs...

Yes, "funny" thing about some...we want things to be family-friendly as some of us enjoy playing with--shocker!--family. Why the complaint? That doesn't strike me as very professional. You have basically just categorized people like me as "weird". Thanks. Rather disappointing to read such things from a company I enjoy purchasing from.

I am rather glad Pathfinder tends to shy away from what video games seem to embrace. I hope you keep it that way.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Fourshadow wrote:


Yes, "funny" thing about some...we want things to be family-friendly as some of us enjoy playing with--shocker!--family. Why the complaint? That doesn't strike me as very professional. You have basically just categorized people like me as "weird". Thanks. Rather disappointing to read such things from a company I enjoy purchasing from.
I am rather glad Pathfinder tends to shy away from what video games seem to embrace. I hope you keep it that way.

Let's be honest - the whole concept of profanity, that certain phonetic values are taboo or unclean or low speech, is pretty weird. The idea that you could say Gosh darn it, heck, shoot, frack, or any other socially acceptable alternatives and not say their socially unacceptable counterparts without being repudiated is kind of twisted and counterproductive.

I don't stop my kids from using profanity. I just teach them when not to use it (mostly around people who do that kind of freakout) and how to use it correctly.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Draco Bahamut wrote:
I am not an expert in North American history, but there wasn't a independecy war that started with a tea revolution ? Forbid tea could be a out of the game symbol that he ruled out hope for freedom.

As Time Squad taught us, tea is for Loyalist sissies.

Real American Men© drink coffee.

Also not to forget that in Golarion, Night Tea is a prefnancy preventtive ala Gentleman's snuff, so I wouldn't be surprised if that's also part of his agenda.


No, he's just a power tripping weirdo a!*!$*$, frankly we just wanted him out of our hair, we were sick of constantly hearing him b%*#% about mint.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

How does he feel about it with lamb?

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm a little disappointed that the proclamations are presented as fundamentally irrational, because most of them serve a practical purpose. A general bounty on ravens, doves, and rats might bring in a specific orphaned familiar Barzillai wants found (The Frozen Stars establishes that orphaned familiars can retain their sapience in some cases). Handing in bounties on pests also gets people comfortable reporting Bad Things(tm) to the authorities. Maybe they'll report on their neighbors next? Portraits crafted to such exacting specifications can probably be used as scrying aids somehow. They can definitely be used as a kind of loyalty marker, as well as an easy excuse for an arrest - say, if the measurements are off by a little bit. Dogs can be used to search for fugitives, as well as for doghousing and for satisfying Barzillai's weird fetish. Also, this bounty serves the same acclimatizing purpose as the pest bounty. Sumptuary laws are venerable means of social control, not to mention that the sale of permits generates some revenue to make up for the bounties paid out on dogs and pests. The prohibition on spilling grain is a way to preemptively deter bread rioting. Night teas are ideal venues for conspiracies to plot against the regime (particularly given the Milanite obedience mentioned above), so out they go. Also, enforcement would require the dottari to step up their rate of (random?) nightly home-searches, normalizing the practice.

The only proclamation that seems completely without totalitarian purpose, except to feed Barzillai's need to feel the "power rush," is the ban on mint.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

2 people marked this as a favorite.
zimmerwald1915 wrote:

I'm a little disappointed that the proclamations are presented as fundamentally irrational, because most of them serve a practical purpose. A general bounty on ravens, doves, and rats might bring in a specific orphaned familiar Barzillai wants found (The Frozen Stars establishes that orphaned familiars can retain their sapience in some cases). Handing in bounties on pests also gets people comfortable reporting Bad Things(tm) to the authorities. Maybe they'll report on their neighbors next? Portraits crafted to such exacting specifications can probably be used as scrying aids somehow. They can definitely be used as a kind of loyalty marker, as well as an easy excuse for an arrest - say, if the measurements are off by a little bit. Dogs can be used to search for fugitives, as well as for doghousing and for satisfying Barzillai's weird fetish. Also, this bounty serves the same acclimatizing purpose as the pest bounty. Sumptuary laws are venerable means of social control, not to mention that the sale of permits generates some revenue to make up for the bounties paid out on dogs and pests. The prohibition on spilling grain is a way to preemptively deter bread rioting. Night teas are ideal venues for conspiracies to plot against the regime (particularly given the Milanite obedience mentioned above), so out they go. Also, enforcement would require the dottari to step up their rate of (random?) nightly home-searches, normalizing the practice.

The only proclamation that seems completely without totalitarian purpose, except to feed Barzillai's need to feel the "power rush," is the ban on mint.

Well... the fact that most of the proclamations serve a practical purpose is intentional. They're meant to be equal parts madness and logic, after all, which to a certain extent is a great way to think about how the lawful evil mindset works. That folks on these boards have, so far, mostly remarked on them being "irrational" is not an indication (I would hope) of them being wholly without practical purpose.

AKA: I worked hard on these proclamations to make sure they did both jobs—to convey the idea that Barzillai is kind of crazy and to simultaneously be things that in-world aren't so outlandish that only one of them would be enough to cause too much mayhem. There's a LOT of reasoning behind why they are what they are, in other words—pest control, fines for wasting food, social control, controlling excuses to gather after dark, and more.

It's pretty cool that folks have been so inspired to chat about them though—that tells me that they're doing their job in engaging the mind, and that there's enough to them to provoke all sorts of discussions.


What about adding proclamations?

I only have the first 2 scenarios, but after the initial rush of edicts I don't see any more coming out. I'd like it continue to add in more of my own ones, maybe one a month of game time, basically to keep prodding and irking the players and give the growing impression that he's just not going to stop doing this unless they eventually put a stop to him once and for all.

Essentially playing up on the concept of ultra-Lawful restrictions chafing the essentially Chaotic nature of the city and the PC's.

Will this mess up future scenarios?

I was thinking things like :
1) Now that he's put the ban on mint and tea, combined with the trade restrictions, coffee starts to run short; so he puts a 'cup tax' on every drink served (upsetting Liara and a great many caffeine addicted citizens).
2) All sellers of magical potions have to take the names of their clients and any sales must be registered with the Dottari. (Annoying my Alchemist PC and making the players focus more on smuggling in potion supplies).

Very much enjoying the path by the way, I feel it's going to run well with my group.


A ban on mint sounds like something Sheogorath would do.

Only Lord Sheogorath may wear a beard, on pain of death!

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Philip Holmes wrote:

What about adding proclamations?

I only have the first 2 scenarios, but after the initial rush of edicts I don't see any more coming out. I'd like it continue to add in more of my own ones, maybe one a month of game time, basically to keep prodding and irking the players and give the growing impression that he's just not going to stop doing this unless they eventually put a stop to him once and for all.

Essentially playing up on the concept of ultra-Lawful restrictions chafing the essentially Chaotic nature of the city and the PC's.

Will this mess up future scenarios?

I was thinking things like :
1) Now that he's put the ban on mint and tea, combined with the trade restrictions, coffee starts to run short; so he puts a 'cup tax' on every drink served (upsetting Liara and a great many caffeine addicted citizens).
2) All sellers of magical potions have to take the names of their clients and any sales must be registered with the Dottari. (Annoying my Alchemist PC and making the players focus more on smuggling in potion supplies).

Very much enjoying the path by the way, I feel it's going to run well with my group.

New proclamations get added during the course of the first four adventures, ones that either start stories or are reactions to events in the stories. Each of them has a purpose and a meaning beyond the initial ones. Furthermore, each of the initial ones are tied in pretty strongly to the last adventure, and adding more is going to unbalance things.

I'd wait till you had all six adventures in hand before messing with the types and number of proclamations, so that you can adjust them knowledgeably, knowing how they'll affect later adventures.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Paul Watson wrote:

Also not to forget that in Golarion, Night Tea is a prefnancy preventtive ala Gentleman's snuff, so I wouldn't be surprised if that's also part of his agenda.

We've taken that same idea and run with it; my independent, free-spirited female rogue was NOT amused. She now flavors her daily Night Tea with mint.


zimmerwald1915 wrote:
A general bounty on ravens, doves, and rats might bring in a specific orphaned familiar Barzillai wants found (The Frozen Stars establishes that orphaned familiars can retain their sapience in some cases).

So while on the surface it looks crazy and opens the door to more odd and extreme measures, it also serves as an indirect way to target followers of Sarenrae and Wizards. By placing a bounty on these animals it's a way of mobilizing the poor against the groups that find these creatures important.

The Dove is Sarenrae's Sacred Animal, so in addition to pitting the population against a potential threat and could be used to stop divine messages.
Then there is the classic wizard's familiar. This will make their familiar worth a few copper to steal and make the wizard more cautious about sending the bird off on jobs.

Shadow Lodge

James Jacobs wrote:
Well... the fact that most of the proclamations serve a practical purpose is intentional. They're meant to be equal parts madness and logic, after all, which to a certain extent is a great way to think about how the lawful evil mindset works. That folks on these boards have, so far, mostly remarked on them being "irrational" is not an indication (I would hope) of them being wholly...

Old comment, but the thread's been posted in recently and it jumped out at me as I was reading it. The "folks on the boards" who have "remarked on the proclamations being irrational" include your good self. See here:

Quote:
As for WHY Thrune's issuing these proclamations? It's purely a power rush for him. He does it because he can, because he's an egotistical maniac. Furthermore, the reasons the proclamations are what they are are due to deep seated psychological issues that will be revealed in the final adventure.

There could hardly be a better description of purely irrational actions than those undertaken just for a power rush and for the author to foreshadow the villain's psychological problems. What's conspicuously absent here is any political justification for the proclamations.

How am I to square this post admitting that the proclamations are completely irrational with your post directly to me saying that no, they actually do have practical justifications?


zimmerwald1915 wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Well... the fact that most of the proclamations serve a practical purpose is intentional. They're meant to be equal parts madness and logic, after all, which to a certain extent is a great way to think about how the lawful evil mindset works. That folks on these boards have, so far, mostly remarked on them being "irrational" is not an indication (I would hope) of them being wholly...

Old comment, but the thread's been posted in recently and it jumped out at me as I was reading it. The "folks on the boards" who have "remarked on the proclamations being irrational" include your good self. See here:

Quote:
As for WHY Thrune's issuing these proclamations? It's purely a power rush for him. He does it because he can, because he's an egotistical maniac. Furthermore, the reasons the proclamations are what they are are due to deep seated psychological issues that will be revealed in the final adventure.

There could hardly be a better description of purely irrational actions than those undertaken just for a power rush and for the author to foreshadow the villain's psychological problems. What's conspicuously absent here is any political justification for the proclamations.

How am I to square this post admitting that the proclamations are completely irrational with your post directly to me saying that no, they actually do have practical justifications?

I don't see a contradiction here. The proclamations are both things, a mixture of tyranny and madness. They serve the purpose of breaking Kintargo's spirit and introducing its citizens to absolutist rule.

The fact that Barzillai is lording himself over the city rather than taking the safer route to achieving his plans in anonymity reflects his arrogance and ego.

So his motivation isn't particularly practical (beyond establishing dominance), but his proclamations do serve a purpose beyond merely feeding his ego. Mileage may vary depending on the proclamation.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Yup; what Artofrgicide said.

The proclamations are in large part nothing more than arrogant power plays. Someone being a jerk and inconveniencing others as a show of petty dominance. The in-world goal is to use these proclamations to help break Kintargo's spirit by piling on petty things like this until the people just give up and comply. The in-game goal is to help set up Barzillai as a crazy-sounding danger and a bad guy the players will be eager to defeat.

There IS no political "justification" for them. He's not doing this to be a good Thrunie. He's doing it because he's a jerk, and EVERYTHING he can do to break Kintargo's spirit will make his eventual plan to become what he hopes to become easier.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The proclamations have become a bit of a red herring in my running of Hell's Rebels. There is mention that the Order of the Torrent, in addition to finding missing people, were concerned with river and coastal protection. This along with the ban on Captains leaving their ships has led my party to believe that Barzillai's ultimate plan involves water travel. The penalties for spilled grain had them extremely concerned about food shortages in the city. I'm thinking of trying to place some tidbits in the campaign to feed into the party's conspiracy theories to give them some sort of payoff for being invested in trying to figure out some meaning to the proclamations beyond their use in breaking Kintargo's spirit. I bought into that reasoning completely myself, but my party has really latched onto trying to tie the proclamations to something more concrete.

We have loved this adventure path so far and are just starting Song of Silver.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Of course, people could take the Discworld interpretation of the laws and set up rat farms so they can rake in the cash on the bounties.


Boothbey wrote:

The proclamations have become a bit of a red herring in my running of Hell's Rebels. There is mention that the Order of the Torrent, in addition to finding missing people, were concerned with river and coastal protection. This along with the ban on Captains leaving their ships has led my party to believe that Barzillai's ultimate plan involves water travel. The penalties for spilled grain had them extremely concerned about food shortages in the city. I'm thinking of trying to place some tidbits in the campaign to feed into the party's conspiracy theories to give them some sort of payoff for being invested in trying to figure out some meaning to the proclamations beyond their use in breaking Kintargo's spirit. I bought into that reasoning completely myself, but my party has really latched onto trying to tie the proclamations to something more concrete.

We have loved this adventure path so far and are just starting Song of Silver.

If you need to counteract the Red Herring, you could drop news that Queen Abrogail has re-positioned the majority of her fleet along the Southern Border of the country. This would obviously make Barzillai feel abandoned and frustrated and you can drop rumors regarding this feeling.

Essentially, try to have the Queen’s orders undermine Barzillai’s proclamations in minor ways to show the chaos occurring in greater Cheliax and to further illustrate Barzillai’s autonomy and erratic decisions. Having the players slowly realize that Barzillai is a extremely egotistical, a bit unhinged, and slightly vulnerable would go a long way in the development of him as a villain.


MannyGoblin wrote:
Of course, people could take the Discworld interpretation of the laws and set up rat farms so they can rake in the cash on the bounties.

This happened in the real world in India with King Cobras and the British Empire. When the bounty was stopped all the cobras were released...

I can't remember where I read this - either on these boards somewhere or some really random coincidence

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Adventure Path / Hell's Rebels / Proclamations: Wait, what? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Hell's Rebels