[Amora Game] Liber Xpansion


Product Discussion


This is a current place holder for Liber Xpansion WIP document. It should be through the Paizo servers by Monday.

For the KS Backers/Designers that have already received the WIP document, you may discuss below.

As of 10-22-15 The document 2.23 that is uploaded is pre-edit, and mock layout as far as graphics.

And update will be posted by 10-30 with additional content.

For public consumption: The price is $6.99 - but there is more materiel to be added once you purchase it.

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Cummunis Codex - the LIC NPC book crafted by Julian Neale is midway through layout. Once LX is complete CCodex will progress further.


It has arrived. LX is here.


Next update will have about 25 more pages.
Some material is reprise from our Prestigious Roles line, + more archetypes and more PrCs.
Book will end up probably the same length as LIC.

So more archetypes on the way from new and favorite designers.


Can't wait to see the upcoming materials :)


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10/30/15
Now updated with more content.

Additional W-I-P Pages added.
1st part of the Revised Adventurer Class added.
TOC added for posterity.

Still unedited Mock Layout version.

page count 50 (including OGL)

Happy Halloween


Arcane Gun is in playtest.
Half of the material is back from the editor.
Gamma is starting to take shape.


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Nov 21 will be the next upload date with most of the finished material.

Almost done.


Woot woot!


I just bought and downloaded this. Unlike the original this doesn't seem to have had any playtest.
Some thoughts:
Adventurer has an empty level at 13. Doesn't even get a BAB increase. Hopefully this is fixed on the next update.
On the Battle Lord archetypes I like the Dual Specialist and I want to like the Warchief, but that restriction that Lawful characters can't benefit from any drills or auras is way too harsh. Having an alignment restriction is bad already but imposing a restriction on the rest of the party is even worse. Same with the Sealot. Even a paladin has a clause saying he can work with evil characters against a greater evil.
I like the Syphon but it has the same problem a normal Conduit would have if the campaign is mixed instead of just magic or just psionics. Any chance of a feat that would allow a Conduit to absorb powers and Syphon to absorb spells?
I love the archetypes so far for the Metamorph. Kinda wish the Everchanging had the ability to change her phenotype, even if it took a long ritual to do it.
Holy s$@@ the Dan Tien Mnemonic is crazy. With Improved Critical and a few good rolls he could be getting a crit of10-20 or even bigger. Combat trance needs to mention that it's added after Improved Critical, Keen and other similar abilities. It also needs some limit like not getting a critical threat highter than 12-20.
These are what jumped at me in a first read through.


VM mercenario wrote:
I just bought and downloaded this. Unlike the original this doesn't seem to have had any playtest.

It has had in house sessions. A lot of the updates are still being refined. KS backers have given feedback as well. Unfortunately the same notes they get in the backer updates, the public hasn't received.

VM mercenario wrote:


Adventurer has an empty level at 13. Doesn't even get a BAB increase. Hopefully this is fixed on the next update.

Level 13 is addressed in the next update. As it does have an update for a couple of guilds.

VM mercenario wrote:
On the Battle Lord archetypes I like the Dual Specialist and I want to like the Warchief, but that restriction that Lawful characters can't benefit from any drills or auras is way too harsh. Having an alignment restriction is bad already but imposing a restriction on the rest of the party is even worse. Same with the zealot. Even a paladin has a clause saying he can work with evil characters against a greater evil.

Good notes. I can discuss them with the developer.

VM mercenario wrote:
I like the Syphon but it has the same problem a normal Conduit would have if the campaign is mixed instead of just magic or just psionics. Any chance of a feat that would allow a Conduit to absorb powers and Syphon to absorb spells?

All feats are not yet reviled. :)

VM mercenario wrote:


Holy s&@+ the Dan Tien Mnemonic is crazy. With Improved Critical and a few good rolls he could be getting a crit of10-20 or even bigger. Combat trance needs to mention that it's added after Improved Critical, Keen and other similar abilities. It also needs some limit like not getting a critical threat highter than 12-20.

~Oh yea, it got a little over the top in playtesting. The Dan Tien gets a lot of rules scrubbing in the next update.

Let us know of anything else, as this is a community driven idea.


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Amora Game wrote:


VM mercenario wrote:
I like the Syphon but it has the same problem a normal Conduit would have if the campaign is mixed instead of just magic or just psionics. Any chance of a feat that would allow a Conduit to absorb powers and Syphon to absorb spells?

All feats are not yet reviled. :)

Damm'd autocorrect! I hope no other feats are reviled, but are rather read backwards and deliver!


So a quick question-- anything for the Demiurge in this product?


@gharlane - No. The two archetypes that are in playtesting will not see daylight in this book (but eventually another supplement). Trying to maintain the structure of the class and putting a spin on the demiurge (such as the Vedas archetype, Hindu inspired) became a strain. It just didn't hold the dynamic that the original had.

Unfortunate also the Umbra Gamma (World) Archetype is pulled as well. These two items can't be completed in the timeline I had personally hoped for.

And they take up too many pages of the book at it's current price tag.

On a plus side, it is almost done.


Has anyone looked at the wild shot or the long gunner? Thoughts on the Ki Scion (besides being a clear dragonball z referance) or the Forged?


I'll look at them when I get home! If there are any materials that you want specific feedback on, please let me know.

I posted some feedback in the product page for the Rogue and Sorc archetype.

For the Extensionist I think I made some balance mistake. The melee Elemental Strikes already lose level as BAB, so I think the loss of die size may be a bit much. Is it too late to request that be taken off?


I am a nit-picker, but I only do it because I love.
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Wild Shot Overall: This is an amazing answer to a complaint that Gunslingers stop getting cool class features after 5th level. It's pretty awesome.

Wild Cards: Vary in power very wildly. Evasive is amazing! Cool mount and Window Crasher significantly less so.

Two Pistol Fighting: I am not clear on the effects? So the main hand gets the -4 penalties while off hand gets no penalties? Do they both get no penalties? Do they both get the -2 penalty?

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Long Gunner Overall: Another strong response to the "post level 5 Gunslinger syndrome" that I can really get behind. Some people may fright at the x6 crit multiplier, but by that point a normal gunslinger going for the cheese is shooting at least 6 times in a full attack. Rewards a fun style of gameplay.

Dedicated Gun: In pathfinder "one step" needs to refer to something. Preferable wording would include "one size category larger" if that's the intent.

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Ki Scion Overall: Burns through Ki points too quickly. May be ok if you played out of mystic and get Level+wis ki points, but a Monk running through this PrC has only 1/2 level+wis ki points.

Pre-reqs: Where are the Inner Darkness and Inner Light feats?

Skill Points per level: If you aren't a full caster or get significant skill boosting/bypassing abilities you should have 4+int skill points per level.

Energy Blast: Do you get the static from the unarmed Strike Damage? I already know Deadly Aim wont apply since it's a touch attack.

Rapid Blast: I would allow one ki point to apply to all attacks made in the full attack.
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Forged Overall: Pretty cool actually. I think the concept is pretty cool and it's very narrative. A good GM could make a very cool Forged NPC that the PCs interact with as he goes though the stages from humanoid to construct.

Armor Fusion: When it becomes fused to him it's no longer a suit of armor and thus the Forged could stack on another layer of armor. Since one is Natural armor and the other is Armor the two would stack and be enchanted on different tracks.

Class level Features (Warsmith or caster): It's kind of strange that the chart ends this at 8 instead of 10. I think they should get one more at 10.


Update is a few weeks late, so let's see what took so long.

Adventurer

Spoiler:
Adventurer is more complete, but still only three guilds. Hope there's more on the final product.
Also, how has this slipped by so long? Journeyman Apprentice and Master Apprentice are useless. You can take 20 a craft check as a standard action? Craft checks are made by the day or week. Do these abilities let me craft stuff in one standard action? If so it should mention it in the ability since that is the main part of the ability. If not maybe you mean they can take twenty on their apprentice skill without increasing the time and without wasting materials when crafting or without making mistakes for proffession. I have no idea what Journeyman Apprentice is supposed to do.
Also the names are dumb. Just change them o Journeyman Skill and Master Work.

Ward of the albatross feels too obviously tacked on and doesn't scale.

Adventuring Guild:
Begginers Luck: What is the action to activate this? It lasts for one roll or for all rolls for ne round?
Guild Master: Can the adventurer still use her luck pool to add to saves and skills or has he lost that? What does 'assist her allies in a similar way to ardic performance" even mean? That she can spend a point and give allies a morale bonus to... what? One roll between attack, damage, saves or skills? All rolls of that type until the beggining of the adventurers next turn? Shouldn't this still be a luck bonus? Or are you supposed to spend a luck point to use Inspired courage as bard or your level?

Assassin Guild is missing it's Guild master ability. Also Hide in Plain Sight and Death Attack need to go through editing and make sure to say that 8th(?) level and 6th(?!?) level are prerequisites. As written now they look like they were supposed to be given at those levels intead of chosen as talents. And adventurers apparently can take them earlier than Rogues and Slayers. Is that intentional?

Herculean Guild... "Woe to the men" Not "Whoa to the men". Also a couple of instances of rage instead of rush. Scrap It makes so the broken shield can't be repaired even with magic and it breaks the shield independent of the shields hardness or hit points. No one is going to ever use that. Except maybe to use artifacts and other indestructible stuff as improvised shields and destroy them without any effort. Not a good ability.

Battle Lord archetypes: Warchief and Zealot still trying to dictate the alignment of the party. It's bad on the paladin and it's worse here because it doesn't even have the excuse of flavor and being an iconic archetype of roleplaying games.

The Dan Tien straight up lost the ability to increase the threat range with trance. I'm okay with that.

Synergist archetypes:
Echo: On Simpatico and Twin Echo do the rolls have to be on the same type of thing or can the Echo get a 17 on a bluff check to feint and an ally can get a 17 on an attack and this triggers the ability?
Vagarists Unbridled Bloodshed means that the bonuses apply to the enemies too and that the enemies crits also trigger it? Awesome. Not sure if I like Odds Are. Chaos Theory is soething I particularly would even bother with but that is just playstyle differences.

Warloghe Forbidden Magic Taboo doesn't have the lesser version as a prereq. That means a Warloghe could get Greater Forbidden Magic without taking the other two. Is that intentional?

Other Archetypes and Prestige Classes next post.


Armiger: So cool. Arcane Heraldry needs a paragraph clarifying what happens if the magus has an arcana that gives new weapon properties to use with arcane pool, such as Bane Blade or Devoted Blade. Hopefully they can also be used with Arcane Heraldry.

Battlefield Sapper would be a great archetype if Hidden Satchel didn't came in at 19th level. The heck, that should come online much earlier and for free. Sapper Satchel on it's own is not worth losing the Animal Companion. Make some other ability for 19th level like being able to have multiple Satchels as long as they are affixed to the Structural Quarry or to Ranger Traps. Also in Hidden Satchel change "A battlefield sapper must possess the Learn Ranger Trap feat in order to use this ability." to "A battlefield sapper must be able to create ranger traps in order to use this ability." so it works with the Trapper archetype and other classes or archetypes that offer Ranger Traps as class features.

Battle Sorcerer: Sorcerer Strenght is pretty cool but still not enough to make up the fact that the sorcerer has low BAB and no armor. Cool concept but no socerer is going to fight in frontlines. And Spell Barrier is awful. One spell level is not worth one HP. Maybe ten, five at the lowest, but one for one is a horrible trade. You're trading three feats for something that can be only used if your HP is low and might not save you you until 11th level because the next attack from the full attack will probably kill you any way

Decrier: The first knee jerk is that this is a bad archetype because Condemner, Spread the Word and Word of Censure are not worth the abilitites they replace. But then Propagandize comes in and might save the whole archetype. Can I use a bane that is not the creatures alignment? I mean can I hit a LN enemy with a chaotic bane or a evil bane? The line "Creatures without a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful alignment may not be affected by this ability" Means a LN creature is immune, is immune to Good and Evil banes or only TN creatures are immune to this ability?
No, wait, it takes three rounds before you can use a bane or boon because it takes that long before you can discern power and location with a detect spell, and you can't hit a LN creature with a Chaotic bane because they won't even show up on a detect chaos spell. And you can only use a boon if your ally shows up on the detect spell, which just makes it harder to use both boons and banes in the same battle. This ability is horrible
And then you have censuring strike that wants you to hit in melee when you want to be 30 feet away so you can include as many allies and enemies on your detect spell at once, and decree of denouncement wants you to cast which works better when away from melee.
Final Verdict: Decrier is not worth the word count it wastes. Get the dev to redo from ground up so enemies aren't straight up immune, so it doesn't take almost the entire battle before you can use your main fature, so you don't get screwed because you detected for the wrong aligment and so you can use censuring strike with ranged weapons. Mostly just divorce Propagandize from aligment and Detect Alignment.

Field Medic: Medicinal Mists either blinds your allies or heals your enemies, or both. It's worse than useless, it actively harms the group. Make it so it makes a cloud that gives fast healing but only to allies and hinders the sight of enemies as a fog cloud. Maybe coming at a higher level, like 4th or 6th.

Peacebane Oracles curse doesn't actually hinder him any. Might inconvenience the party but not that much. Maybe make creatures inside the area have a starting attitude one step lower unless they pass a DC15 will save, and foes in combat have to beat that save in order to surrender or flee, otherwise they fight until they die or the oracle dies. And the bonus are missing the type, probably don't stack and are not that good.

Qi Gong Ninja, Raider, Sleep Peddler, Warchanter and War Wizard are okay. On the whole I love Armiger and I think Battlefield Sapper and Field Medic can be easily fized.

PrCs on the next post.


Beast Hunter: What is the duration on Penetrating Blow? One minute, until the creature is dead, or something else? Way it written it almost looks like you have to make a standard action attack and pass a skill check just to ignore a little DR. If that's it, at least ignore 5 and later 10 points of DR or ignore the creatures natural armor against attack or hit it as if it was flatfooted or block fast healing and regeneration for a few rounds. Or give a choice so the beast hunter can use the best straegy against that particular monster. Disabling Strikes is crap. Depending on the monster you might roll something useless or that they're immune. Or it becomes unconscious and gets coup de graced. Also it's usable at will whenever a monster misses? Dude, no. That is too random, at the same time too powerful and too useless. Back to the drawing board with this ability.

Braker, Centurion, Meta Adept, Tavern Brawler and Toxicologist are all from older products. Makes me wonder if we're getting a revised Commander in this book too. I noticed the Adventurer being based based on the Adventurer class you guys had too, but improved.

Forged: No big problems, except for the two things Insain mentioned and some bad grammar. Needs a pass by the editor.

Ki Scion: Change Focused Path to give more Ki. This class will burn through Ki like nothing else. Powerful Blast needs to change "he gains additional damage" to "he may add additional damage" so he can choose not risk staggering at a bad moment. Super Scion: I see what you did there. It gives very little rounds, barely enough for a single fight. I suggest 4+Con.

Long Gunner: How does Sniping Shot interacts with Vital Strike? Can you guys add a paragraph that allows you to add Vital Strike with Sniping Shot?
Rifle Mastery II gives him a bonus feat, but he must use a move action to activate it? What if he spends the move action and the shot isn't a critical? Why not just give him the feat, no strings attached? Or maybe keep the move action to activate, but give in return the ability to trade which critical feat he has from this ability, like how an inquisitor can use a standard action to change his last teamwork feat.
Rifle mastery III, can the Long Gnner make a called shot with a sniping shot? I don't know much about called shots. If not maybe add that to Rifle Mastery IV?
Rifle Mastery IV It takes four level to be able to add a critical feat to an attack that threatens a critical. From the point of view of a player, I'm etter off just getting the feat as a feat.

Wild Shot: Cool ideas but not enough oomph, might as well stay as a Gunslinger. Pistol Whip and Evasive are gunslinger deeds, Reliable Friend is worse than Quick Clear, Hair Trigger is worse than Gunslingers Initiative, Two Pistol Fighting makes no diffeence for someone targeting touch AC, Dual Shot is missing the word "standard" in "as part of the same action"
On the other hand Vital Shot is good, Lucky Cover, Quick Foot, Utility Shot and Fastest Gun are all good too.
I would give the Wild Shot an ability called Fastest Gun that gives the ability to not provoke AoOs when shooting in melee and a scaling initiative bonus. Maybe a Wild Card to allow him to disarm with a shot.


VM Mercenario wrote:

Synergist archetypes:

Echo: On Simpatico and Twin Echo do the rolls have to be on the same type of thing or can the Echo get a 17 on a bluff check to feint and an ally can get a 17 on an attack and this triggers the ability?
Vagarists Unbridled Bloodshed means that the bonuses apply to the enemies too and that the enemies crits also trigger it? Awesome. Not sure if I like Odds Are. Chaos Theory is soething I particularly would even bother with but that is just playstyle differences.

I can chime in here:

* Echo - does not have to be the same "type of thing" - can be a mix of skill checks, saves or attacks...

* Unbridled Bloodshed - exactly!

* Chaos Theory - sure, I can see that. Table variation will make different optiions more or less attractive.

N.B. I sent in a bunch of typos, clarifications, edits and nitpicky stuff I found perusing the WIP - most for Synergist, but a few for the Waerloghe archetype too...and maybe a few others - Greg do you want me to spoiler those here to avoid double up?

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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VM mercenario wrote:
Battle Lord archetypes: Warchief and Zealot still trying to dictate the alignment of the party. It's bad on the paladin and it's worse here because it doesn't even have the excuse of flavor and being an iconic archetype of roleplaying games.

I'm actually totally fine with the Warchief and Zealot's restrictions applying only to themselves (warchief should be any nonlawful, zealot should be within 1 step of patron deity). This may be lingering because Greg and I just have been missing each other lately.


Yeah this would really help!


*rubs hands together* Good. Good.

Lots to take in and will be worked on this weekend at some point.

@Oceanshieldworlf - Morgan I approve these spoilers.
@Ssalarn - I missed my chance to call you this past weekend, had another funeral. On the Warchief and Zealot i have updated the WIP, once i get a free minute i will get to the update on the Ultimate. Consider this an FAQ post, that restricts only the battle lord.


I posted some feedback on the product page thread too.

If there are any materials in the book you want looked at in more depth let us know in this thread! The Xpansion book is pretty dense, so it's easy to go cross eyed without focus.


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@Insane Dragoon - Yes I was able to grab that feedback.
I will surely call upon you once we get closer to the final book.

*Coming up*
So we have a few updates based on the feedback received and we will iron out the mechanics.

One big thing in the next update (goal is within the next two weeks) will be the Gun Adept. What is a Gun Adept, well it's our version of a gun mage.

Think of Wax from the Mistborn series starting with Alloy of Law. You will cast like a sorcerer with the spell progression of the magus. You gain an arcane bonded gun with the ability to carve specialty bullets.
Rune Bullets.

You can sacrifice a spell slot when you fire off a round to have the rune bullet cause spell-like effects.
Like a "push" rune bullet will allow you to push others on a successful hit, or you can push off the bullet and "fly".


... Arcane Tempest Gun Mages? Oohhhh, yeaaaahhhh

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Alloy of Law (and now the other two books in the series) are some of my favorites. Your reference pleases me.


Alright everyone - survey time.
Those that have purchased Liber Xpansion, or if you are a kickstarter member and received it for free, we are coming to the end of the current phase of the book. So, before we launch a new update, you have a direct choice....
1. Do you want a finished adventurer class like what has been introduced in the book, OR
2. Do you wish to have a "gun mage" as described above?

Due to price point in relation to the size of the book, we can only do one.


Amora Game wrote:

Alright everyone - survey time.

Those that have purchased Liber Xpansion, or if you are a kickstarter member and received it for free, we are coming to the end of the current phase of the book. So, before we launch a new update, you have a direct choice....
1. Do you want a finished adventurer class like what has been introduced in the book, OR
2. Do you wish to have a "gun mage" as described above?

Due to price point in relation to the size of the book, we can only do one.

(Purchaser here) Adventurer class, if you please. :-)

Sovereign Court

I think adventurer sounds more interesting, though marginally.


Don't really like the adventurer. I vote for the gun mage.


The Adventurer sounds interesting to me. Not much of a fan of guns in pathfinder.


While there is a charm to a custonizable class, I would prefer a bit more focus. So gonna have to say Gun- Mage.

Also I already have various Adventurer-esque classes from my 3PP collection. I don't think I have any magical gun users.


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It's been awhile since we hit the boards here with an update.
This book should be finally full up by the end of 2016.
Gun mage will see it's own release, as well as being a part of the final document here in the coming weeks.

Thanks for your patience.


Amora Game wrote:

It's been awhile since we hit the boards here with an update.

This book should be finally full up by the end of 2016.
Gun mage will see it's own release, as well as being a part of the final document here in the coming weeks.

Thanks for your patience.

Woohoo!!

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