_Ozy_ wrote: Because of the peculiarities of the way initiatives work, it doesn't have to be the 'speed of light' to be immediate with respect to whether other people get to act in between action A and action B.
On my turn, I can move 30', draw a bow, nock an arrow, and shoot you. If you've already taken your turn, you are frozen in place, unable to move while I complete this action.
That's just how Pathfinder works. To interpret the summon monster rules otherwise is rewriting how combat rounds work.
I'm sorry, but no. On your turn, you're completing the actions of moving, drawing, and shooting- yes. BUT, you're figuratively doing this at the same time that I'm doing the actions I completed before 'being frozen in place'. I was just faster, and therefor you tracked me to that spot to complete your actions.
That's the abstraction vs the story. We need the abstraction to limit the chaos of battle to something manageable in the game, but it represents the reality of people moving at the same time during a 6 second interval. No one is really frozen in place- wasn't it you who said you thought OTHERs were falling into the final fantasy turn based trap of combat? It very much sounds like that's what you're describing.
It does not have to be at the speed of light, I agree; but that difference is what initiative covers. Higher initiative= faster attack. You are the one attempting to say otherwise.
EDIT: cleaned up improper quotation
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote: Finally, if you COULD do what you describe, EVERYONE would do it. In your example you ready an action to shoot the guy when the door opens. The guy picking the lock's buddy readies an action to shoot you when the lockpicker opens the door.
Who goes first? Without resorting to initiative, we'll never know. If you have to resort to initiative anyways, why bother declaring all those readied actions? They just don't work.
I'm amused that we used the same example. :)
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote: Ravingdork wrote: Finally, if you COULD do what you describe, EVERYONE would do it. In your example you ready an action to shoot the guy when the door opens. The guy picking the lock's buddy readies an action to shoot you when the lockpicker opens the door.
Who goes first? Without resorting to initiative, we'll never know. If you have to resort to initiative anyways, why bother declaring all those readied actions? They just don't work.
I'm amused that we used the same example. :) Sorry, did I get it mixed up?
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
No, I think we're in total agreement on that one.
mousmous wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: Because of the peculiarities of the way initiatives work, it doesn't have to be the 'speed of light' to be immediate with respect to whether other people get to act in between action A and action B.
On my turn, I can move 30', draw a bow, nock an arrow, and shoot you. If you've already taken your turn, you are frozen in place, unable to move while I complete this action.
That's just how Pathfinder works. To interpret the summon monster rules otherwise is rewriting how combat rounds work.
I'm sorry, but no. On your turn, you're completing the actions of moving, drawing, and shooting- yes. BUT, you're figuratively doing this at the same time that I'm doing the actions I completed before 'being frozen in place'. I was just faster, and therefor you tracked me to that spot to complete your actions.
That's the abstraction vs the story. We need the abstraction to limit the chaos of battle to something manageable in the game, but it represents the reality of people moving at the same time during a 6 second interval. No one is really frozen in place- wasn't it you who said you thought OTHERs were falling into the final fantasy turn based trap of combat? It very much sounds like that's what you're describing.
It does not have to be at the speed of light, I agree; but that difference is what initiative covers. Higher initiative= faster attack. You are the one attempting to say otherwise.
EDIT: cleaned up improper quotation Er, no, I'm operating within the Pathfinder rules for combat.
When the rules say that the summoned monster appears and immediately attacks on a specific initiative, that means that the appearing and attacking occur when it is not anyone else's turn.
That means that nobody, unless they have a readied action, can react between the appearance and the attack of the monster because it simply is not their turn.
I understand completely the idea of abstraction here, but you indicated that 'The attack action that the monster takes 'immediately' can still be a slow attack, which can be potentially dodged, parried, or beaten.' when the rules specifically indicate otherwise. In this particular scenario, the enemy would be flat-footed and caught by surprise by both the appearance and the attack by the summoned monster.
I fail to see why you can't just ready an action any time and if you insist on it being a combat action only, then okay, go ahead and roll initiative then BECAUSE of that if you like. Because if you want it to strictly be a combat action, then fine, I just started "combat" with my "combat action."
Since most of the time nobody will be aware of me having started combat (other side of door or no outward signs of readying), the readying itself happens as the surprise round, and then proceed in rolled initiative.
Ravingdork wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: Ravingdork wrote:
What you CAN'T do outside of combat is take special initiative actions, such as DELAY or READY. If you're not in initiative, you can't take initiative actions. Simple. Why not? A ready action requires a standard action and a trigger condition, why can't this be satisfied outside of combat? For starters, because the rules are in the "Special Initiative Actions" section of the Combat Chapter.
The first sentence is literally "Here are ways to change when you act during combat by altering your place in the initiative order." If you aren't in initiative order yet, you can't do it.
It's like trying to swim when you're not in water. You can flap your arms and legs in the air all you like, but you aren't swimming.
Finally, if you COULD do what you describe, EVERYONE would do it. In your example you ready an action to shoot the guy when the door opens. The guy picking the lock's buddy readies an action to shoot you when the lockpicker opens the door.
Who goes first? Without resorting to initiative, we'll never know. If you have to resort to initiative anyways, why bother declaring all those readied actions? They just don't work. There are tons of rules in the 'Combat' section which still can be applied outside of combat, such as casting a spell or activating a magic item.
Furthermore, readying an action DOES alter your initiative order because you roll initiative before the readied action is resolved. There is no conflict here.
Secondly, everyone DOES do this when it is appropriate. Ever see a SWAT team clear a building? Move action then ready an action to cover their partner. Partner: move action, then ready an action to cover back.
Even if the building is empty, even if there are no actual hostiles in the building, the execute a sequence of moves+ready actions until the building is clear.
If your adventure team does something similar when opening a door, why does this sound so outrageous?
_Ozy_ wrote: When the rules say that the summoned monster appears and immediately attacks on a specific initiative. So what specific initiative is it? We aren't in combat yet, according to your interpretations of the rules. I really want to concede this point to you, because it's a great argument, but we aren't getting past the fact that you want to do combat outside of combat. If we assume we're already in combat, then it works per combat rules like you want, but we aren't in combat yet. IMHO you are granting your bad guy caster two surprise rounds by doing this, and I don't believe that to be fair or fun for my players.
Quote: We aren't in combat yet, according to your interpretations of the rules. Spellcasting is a combat action, so the moment he cast the spell, you ARE entering into combat by doing a combat action, and should do surprise rounds if relevant and roll initiative at that point if you were not previously in initiative. By the time the summons arrives, you all have initiative orders. You can't really not have initiative after having cast a summons spell.
Spellcasting is a combat action?
Better roll initiative when you create water to refill the waterskins.
Quote: Spellcasting is a combat action? Yes, "cast a spell" actions are outlined in the combat chapter.
Quote: Better roll initiative when you create water to refill the waterskins. By RAW, yes. Obviously most people would houserule skipping over this step in utility only situations for convenience.
Crimeo wrote: Quote: We aren't in combat yet, according to your interpretations of the rules. Spellcasting is a combat action, so the moment he cast the spell, you ARE entering into combat by doing a combat action, and should do surprise rounds if relevant and roll initiative at that point if you were not previously in initiative. By the time the summons arrives, you all have initiative orders. You can't really not have initiative after having cast a summons spell. Absolutely agreed. He asked us to adjudicate his example, and that's the conclusion I came to as well, even though there isn't enough time in a surprise round to cast a summon spell.
But he still hasn't rolled initiative and wants to quote rules for resolving attacks within initiative to prove his point.
EDIt: *us, not me. Stoopid ego.
mousmous wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: When the rules say that the summoned monster appears and immediately attacks on a specific initiative. So what specific initiative is it? We aren't in combat yet, according to your interpretations of the rules. I really want to concede this point to you, because it's a great argument, but we aren't getting past the fact that you want to do combat outside of combat. If we assume we're already in combat, then it works per combat rules like you want, but we aren't in combat yet. IMHO you are granting your bad guy caster two surprise rounds by doing this, and I don't believe that to be fair or fun for my players. The spellcaster is in combat, he perceived a hostile party. He doesn't get two surprise round, he gets one full round of spellcasting in which the players have no idea what's going on.
You roll initiative for everyone as soon as the spellcaster starts the spell, but the characters have no idea that something bad is about to happen, so they continue whatever they were doing. Initiative is a meta-thing, the characters don't recognize that they are in combat until the monster appears.
Then, the monster appears on the spellcaster's initiative the following round and attacks. The party responds on their initiatives as usual.
Ambushes that are not detected are rarely fun for the PCs, believe me, I know that quite well. It's one of the things that almost always works for the bad guys, and rarely works for the good guys.
Crimeo wrote: By RAW, yes. Obviously most people would houserule skipping over this step in utility only situations for convenience. And this is why I can't take arguing with you seriously.
CampinCarl9127 wrote: Crimeo wrote: By RAW, yes. Obviously most people would houserule skipping over this step in utility only situations for convenience. And this is why I can't take arguing with you seriously. If you can't take the rules seriously, I suggest any of the other glamorous forums on this website other than the rules forum.
Crimeo wrote: CampinCarl9127 wrote: Crimeo wrote: By RAW, yes. Obviously most people would houserule skipping over this step in utility only situations for convenience. And this is why I can't take arguing with you seriously. If you can't take the rules seriously, I suggest any of the other glamorous forums on this website other than the rules forum. Another shining example of your ever-present strawmans.
But I'm not going to let this go any further. There is no point in continuing a conversation where you consciously assert claims that you admit are ridiculous. Clearly your intent is not to help clarify the rules, but rather to start an argument. Good day.
Quote: He doesn't get two surprise round, he gets one full round of spellcasting in which the players have no idea what's going on.
You roll initiative for everyone as soon as the spellcaster starts the spell, but the characters have no idea that something bad is about to happen, so they continue whatever they were doing. Initiative is a meta-thing, the characters don't recognize that they are in combat until the monster appears.
Yes I believe this is correct. You don't get a surprise round because it doesn't fit in one. Or rather, you do, but you are choosing not to use it, really. Then roll initiative, and other may roll better than you. But since they don't know anything is up yet, they just do whatever they normally would have done. And then on the caster's turn in initiative, he can cast the summons.
The only problem with the above is that YES, they can act in response before the creature shows up, because on the other people's NEXT turns, of which everybody gets one after the spell has begun being cast but before the creature shows up, they have now all heard you beginning to cast a spell. And they can do their spellcraft rolls, or just assume you are hostile, etc., as they see fit.
Quote: There is no point in continuing a conversation where you consciously assert claims that you admit are ridiculous. Uh what did I "admit" was ridiculous?
Spells being combat actions is not ridiculous at all. It is exactly what they should be, to allow for adjudication of situations exactly like what we are talking about.
Even utility spells in many situations nearby NPCs may react with hostility. If they can't pass spellcraft, they might assume you just tried to curse somebody or whatever and attack you, if its a superstitious sort of town. And the fact that the spell is technically a combat action is routinely important for working out the orders of things like this.
If and when you get away with casting a utility spell that nobody nearby chooses to take issue with, then initiative begins, then just ends once no threat is pursued. You can go through the motions if you like, but most GMs would just speed through that for simple convenience's sake. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be a combat action. It's very important that it is.
_Ozy_ wrote:
The spellcaster is in combat, he perceived a hostile party. He doesn't get two surprise round, he gets one full round of spellcasting in which the players have no idea what's going on.
You roll initiative for everyone as soon as the spellcaster starts the spell, but the characters have no idea that something bad is about to happen, so they continue whatever they were doing. Initiative is a meta-thing, the characters don't recognize that they are in combat until the monster appears.
Then, the monster appears on the spellcaster's initiative the following round and attacks. The party responds on their initiatives as usual.
So we roll initiative, I don't know what's going on, but I'm at 22 and the caster is at 12. Surprise round is him casting, so his creature doesn't appear-and-attack until 12 during the regular. Do I then lose my action...? Because I'm not aware of combat at 22, and when the creature appears at 12, I'll have lost my turn. How is that not getting two surprise rounds? And if I don't lose my turn, I'm forced into a lower initiative, which is bogus.
Quote: So we roll initiative, I don't know what's going on, but I'm at 22 and the caster is at 12. Surprise round is him casting No as you pointed out you can't fit a round duration spell in surprise round. He still gets one if he wants, but only some other standard or move action. Likely, he will just choose to pass on the surprise round if he really wants to summon first.
So now we go to initiative order. The guy who rolled 22 goes first, and hasn't seen anything suspicious happen yet, so he gets a turn, but he isn't allowed to metagame. He just does 6 seconds' worth of whatever he would normally have done, unsuspectingly. Then the guy who rolled 12's turn, he starts casting summons. Then the guy who rolled 22 now hears him casting a spell and can react/try to interrupt, etc. before the creature appears at the start of the next turn.
OR the attacker can do something aggressive in the surprise round that costs only 1 move or 1 standard (not casting a summons!), but if so, the guy who rolled a 22 now on his first turn HAS seen something happen and can react appropriately... before the summon spell even begins...
You'll want to read _Ozy_'s example, Crimeo. You cannot detect the spell being cast. The appearance of the summoned creature is the only knowledge one has. Combat both does and does not start with the appearance of this creature. It's an example that is supposed to support the previous argument of an attack that goes so fast, it cannot be interrupted to begin combat. I think you were one of the original proponents of that. The problem is that it's turning out not to be the best example. We're doing a LOT of shoe-horning to get to the point where combat begins in the manner of the guy who yells "I stab him!".
Quote: You'll want to read _Ozy_'s example, Crimeo. You cannot detect the spell being cast. Why not? I don't see that in his example, unless it was from way further back in the thread or something?
The caster has verbal, somatic components, and even if using various metamagic, also has (thanks to the new FAQ the other day) some sort of other magical manifestation as well, all allowing detection... and since most summons are round length, the other guy has a whole turn to interrupt before the creature appears.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
I'll give my answer, such as it is, to Ozy's question.
Assume the party remains unaware of the sorcerer until the spell is completed. If the sorcerer (and hence the summoned critter) want to fight the party, they get a surprise round, which is round 3. The critter appears at the top of the sorcerer's initiative and gets to take a single standard or move action. The sorcerer gets an action, as well, because the entire casting time of the spell occurred prior to the surprise round.
If the party figures it out otherwise, we lose some symmetry as the sorcerer gets a round with only a partial action in some situations, which breaks up how the spellcasting times out.
Now, if we want to get into other strangeness about surprise rounds, imagine an illusionist maintaining concentration on a spell who gets surprised. Since that character lacks the standard action to maintain the spell, RAW says that spell is going down regardless. There are easy workarounds, but I think it demonstrates (again) that too much adherence to RAW is ill-advised.
Oh is the scenario simply that the summoner is like, a quarter mile away from them or something? In that case, initiative would have just been rolled long before, surprise round come and gone, and the target people will be able to react to the threat on whatever their first turn of initiative is that they first perceive the summoned animal bearing down on them *shrug*
Crimeo wrote: Quote: He doesn't get two surprise round, he gets one full round of spellcasting in which the players have no idea what's going on.
You roll initiative for everyone as soon as the spellcaster starts the spell, but the characters have no idea that something bad is about to happen, so they continue whatever they were doing. Initiative is a meta-thing, the characters don't recognize that they are in combat until the monster appears.
Yes I believe this is correct. You don't get a surprise round because it doesn't fit in one. Or rather, you do, but you are choosing not to use it, really. Then roll initiative, and other may roll better than you. But since they don't know anything is up yet, they just do whatever they normally would have done. And then on the caster's turn in initiative, he can cast the summons.
The only problem with the above is that YES, they can act in response before the creature shows up, because on the other people's NEXT turns, of which everybody gets one after the spell has begun being cast but before the creature shows up, they have now all heard you beginning to cast a spell. And they can do their spellcraft rolls, or just assume you are hostile, etc., as they see fit. Once again, in this particular scenario the party is unaware of the spell casting, whether it's due to silent spell, cover, invisibility, or just really crappy perception rolls.
Nobody is saying that players who are aware of spellcasting going on have to sit around with their thumbs up their butt and do nothing, so lets try not to confuse the issue under discussion.
Crimeo wrote: Quote: You'll want to read _Ozy_'s example, Crimeo. You cannot detect the spell being cast. Why not? I don't see that in his example, unless it was from way further back in the thread or something?
The caster has verbal, somatic components, and even if using various metamagic, also has (thanks to the new FAQ the other day) some sort of other magical manifestation as well, all allowing detection... and since most summons are round length, the other guy has a whole turn to interrupt before the creature appears. Cover, concealment, invisibility, silent spell, darkness, reach spell for extra distance, party is having a loud argument and/or are otherwise distracted, they have really crappy perceptions.
Choose any or all of the above to satisfy your curiosity, but try to stick to the scenario at hand.
Then the timeline is:
1) Caster declares hostility
2) Nobody is aware of him at all, so he gets a surprise round.
3) He doesn't do anything meaningful in that surprise round, it's too short to do what he actually wants, which is summoning. You might argue that if he doesn't do any combat actions during it, it doesn't happen at all, but this is a moot point either way, same result.
4) Roll initiative. Let's say target rolls 12, caster rolls 8.
5) Target now gets a full turn. During which he is still unaware, and cannot metagame and does whatever two actions he normally would have done anyway.
6) Caster's turn now, he begins casting.
7) Target's turn, he still is clueless, still continues two more non-metagaming oblivious actions.
8) Caster and summoned animal's turns now. Maybe the summoned animal runs over and attacks the target. OR just runs into perceivable range.
9) Target's turn, has been attacked, or maybe perceives it now, can respond accordingly. Or if the creature STILL hasn't been noticed at all, continues to act obliviously.
etc.
Pretty much, the scenario actually was
8) summoned animal appears in the midst of the party and starts to attack while party is still flatfooted.
but yeah, otherwise that's the timeline.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
You can spend a standard action in each of two rounds to complete a full-round action, such as casting a spell (I think full-attacking being an exception to the rule).
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Ravingdork wrote: You can spend a standard action in each of two rounds to complete a full-round action, such as casting a spell (I think full-attacking being an exception to the rule). That was a 3.5 rule I believe, but did it make the transition to Pathfinder?
I cannot find it in the CRB or the PFSRD.
Thanks!
Hendelbolaf wrote: Ravingdork wrote: You can spend a standard action in each of two rounds to complete a full-round action, such as casting a spell (I think full-attacking being an exception to the rule). That was a 3.5 rule I believe, but did it make the transition to Pathfinder?
I cannot find it in the CRB or the PFSRD.
Thanks! Start/Complete Full-Round Action
The “start full-round action” standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can't use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.
One of the most straightforward ways to figure out that readies can only be done in combat is by noting that it requires you to change your initiative. As you don't have an initiative to change while you're not in combat, it can be deduced that it really only can be used during combat. (otherwise the instructions for the ready rules would be impossible to follow)
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As for Ozy's example, I think the actual answer might be that the undetected caster can cast the summon spell outside of combat if he chooses. If he does, then the appearance of the summoned monster is what might trigger the start of combat.
For example, if he summons the creature in a concealed location and somehow instructs it to hide, combat may not begin at all. If the players do spot the summoned monster (with a perception versus stealth check as per normal), then some of the players may be surprised and you begin the surprise round (or normal round if everyone made their checks) if they consider it a threat.
If the creature is summoned directly next to the players, then it and the caster now get a surprise round on the party. (assuming no one has spotted the caster)
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Now while the above may be correct, most GMs will likely try to finagle some way for the act of casting the summon spell to consume the surprise round in some way, although the rules are extremely ill-equipped for adjudicating surprise combat initiations begun with a full round action.
Byakko wrote: One of the most straightforward ways to figure out that readies can only be done in combat is by noting that it requires you to change your initiative. As you don't have an initiative to change while you're not in combat, it can be deduced that it really only can be used during combat. I believe changing it from zero to an actual initiative, or more accurately, changing it from a non-value to a value, should constitute "changing" it.
Best way to deal with people that have readied actions all the time:
Play out the game turn by turn.
Seriously.
My group decides when they want to start combat, if they start readying actions, initiative takes place and we start going turn by turn.
If, after forty or so turns of nothing happening they get bored and say "can we just skip ahead to when something happens?" I respond with: "sure, you stop readying actions and we leave combat".
This works. Try it.
Seems a rather passive aggressive way to deal with the reasonable actin of readying an arrow to shoot whatever comes through the door.
If you wanted to split the difference, I suppose you could give an initiative bonus to the readied action.
alexd1976 wrote: Best way to deal with people that have readied actions all the time:
Play out the game turn by turn.
Seriously.
My group decides when they want to start combat, if they start readying actions, initiative takes place and we start going turn by turn.
If, after forty or so turns of nothing happening they get bored and say "can we just skip ahead to when something happens?" I respond with: "sure, you stop readying actions and we leave combat".
This works. Try it.
Oooh, I really like that. I'm certainly going to use that for a certain person I game with...
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
The “start full-round action” standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can't use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.
Thanks! I knew it was somewhere but I really had not searched for it in Pathfinder.
That's not a clever trick that's just you house ruling additional penalties for things you don't like but not things you do. Exhibit A: do you insist on going turn by turn walking across town 30ft at a time? If not, this is hypocritical to justify it with "oh this is just a literal rules reading" Combat is a bit vague but you at least have to be consistent if you want to claim that. Force every turn of everything OR allow fast forward in repetitive bits of everything, or whatever.
On the other hand houserule asymmetric penalties is fine but you should just be upfront and honest about it. Just say what your desired limitations are instead of toying with players and "teaching them lesson" patronizingly.
DM_Blake wrote: Byakko wrote: One of the most straightforward ways to figure out that readies can only be done in combat is by noting that it requires you to change your initiative. As you don't have an initiative to change while you're not in combat, it can be deduced that it really only can be used during combat. I believe changing it from zero to an actual initiative, or more accurately, changing it from a non-value to a value, should constitute "changing" it. Not only that, while a readied action may be initiated outside of combat, it can be resolved in combat where whatever initiative you rolled is modified to right before the initiative of the triggering action.
And, once again though I can't believe I need to say it, initiative is a metagame concept. It should have zero impact on the actions a character can take in game since a character knows nothing about this artificial construct.
And finally, while it is indeed silly to constantly be readying an action while you're walking down a friendly street, it absolutely makes sense to liberally use readied actions while trying to clear a dungeon complex, ala SWAT team tactics.
It shouldn't take the 10th surprise after opening a door to a room full of goblins for you to think that maybe, just perhaps, the 11th door might also have some bad guys behind it.
You still can't use readies outside of combat. At some point I'll try to pin down a more solid and supported justification, but note that allowing readies outside of combat -breaks- the initiative system. The point of having initiative rolls is to determine who reacts faster within the small interval of the combat turn.
I have played versions of D&D for many years, and have yet to meet a highly seasoned GM who allow players to ready outside of combat. While this is certainly only incidental proof, I find it highly unlikely that all these experienced people have been doing it wrong.
In any case, talking about how well the "metagame"(sic) concept corresponds to in-character knowledge is rather pointless. The entire combat system is a huge abstraction and has little to do with how reality (even a fantasy one) works. That's just part of the package when you're playing a combat simulation game.
Quote: You still can't use readies outside of combat. It just begins initiative when you use it... not a big deal.
If you insisted on being annoying about not allowing this, then you're encouraging crap like "okay, I fire an arrow at where I suspect there might be hiding a random forest animal in the underbrush, or I attack the fighter with improvised fluffy pillow weapon, THEN I ready my stupid action..."
It's not really sustainable to try and control this, without either A) a slippery slope of rules silliness, or B) outright banning readied actions entirely or something, which changes a lot of rules balance and is rather immersion breaking "what do you mean it's physically impossible to get ready to attack the next guy through the door?"
I don't even understand what on earth people are worried about happening exactly?
Byakko wrote: You still can't use readies outside of combat. At some point I'll try to pin down a more solid and supported justification, but note that allowing readies outside of combat -breaks- the initiative system. The point of having initiative rolls is to determine who reacts faster within the small interval of the combat turn. But that only matters when everyone is on fairly equal footing. Two guys come around a corner, face to face. Roll initiative, fastest guy goes first. Equal footing.
It does not apply when one of those guys expects the other one and readies to clobber him the instant he sees him. This is no longer equality. The guy expecting the encounter SHOULD have an advantage.
And this is not a surprise round. To get that, at least one of these guys must KNOW the other guy is there. If they don't, there is no surprise round.
In any case, the guy with the readied action should have an advantage over the other guy. To say "Nope, you could have done that if combat started LAST round, yeah, sure, you could totally have readied your action and clobbered this guy, but for some reason the universe just won't let you do it THIS round - I can't explain it, it's just magical words in a book somewhere that we must interpret as lawyerish as we can and ignore equally valid other lawyerish interpretations just because. Oh, yeah, you should have killed a rat last round so you could be ready for this guy this round. Yeah, that would have worked."
Total nonsense.
Quote: And this is not a surprise round. It can be if for instance, I spot somebody approaching through my arrow slit, but he hasn't spotted me, and I ready an action for shooting him if he gets within 100 feet.
The readying itself there would be my standard in my surprise round, I'd say.
But if you aren't aware of him yet and are just doing something "in case", then no not a surprise round, just roll init and begin init turns (or act as if you had and fast forward if nothing interesting is going to happen for awhile)
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Byakko wrote: You still can't use readies outside of combat. At some point I'll try to pin down a more solid and supported justification, but note that allowing readies outside of combat -breaks- the initiative system. The point of having initiative rolls is to determine who reacts faster within the small interval of the combat turn.
I have played versions of D&D for many years, and have yet to meet a highly seasoned GM who allow players to ready outside of combat. While this is certainly only incidental proof, I find it highly unlikely that all these experienced people have been doing it wrong.
In any case, talking about how well the "metagame"(sic) concept corresponds to in-character knowledge is rather pointless. The entire combat system is a huge abstraction and has little to do with how reality (even a fantasy one) works. That's just part of the package when you're playing a combat simulation game.
Er, no, in fact most of us insist that characters' knowledge and actions are divorced from metagame knowledge. Not being able to ready outside of initiative breaks this condition. It's literally like saying nobody can fire a bow outside of initiative, and can be justified the same way. After all, ranged attacks show up in the combat section, and combat requires initiative...
Doesn't it seem odd to you that someone walking down a quiet street in a good part of town can be surprised just as easily as someone opening another door, for the 10th time, to a room that he has a strong reason to believe might contain yet another group of goblins?
The fact that expectations can play no part in the determination of surprise or reaction time is patently ridiculous, and breaks verisimilitude across the board.
Finally, in no way does readying break the initiative system, it merely rewards someone for actually recognizing the likelihood that there are often threats behind dungeon doors instead of stupidly opening the 10th door for the 10th time and encountering the 10th group of goblins without being ready for it.
Does it mean adventurers will always ready before they are about to enter or trigger a potentially dangerous situation? Probably. At least, the smart ones will.
I just don't understand why people think adventurers should be casually exploring a life-threatening dungeon instead of clearing it SWAT-style. It's as if they think adventurers should have no built-in self-preservation, at all.
When did I saw you couldn't fire your bow outside of initiative? You can. You're just not doing it in combat rounds or using the combat system to do so. You'll often see this sort of thing in scenarios for non-combat skill challenges such as archery contests.
If you're just guessing that there's an enemy on the other side of the door, but don't have anything to support that supposition, then you roll initiative per normal. If you know they're on the other side or have something indicating they're there (somewhat subject to GM interpretation of the situation), then you get a surprise round. The surprise round is what you gain by being aware of an upcoming fight - not the ability to ready an action outside of combat.
Adventurers do explore dungeons on full alert. This is part of why you get passive perception checks. No where am I presuming that you aren't constantly on guard for a fight. However, this doesn't mean you can't be caught off-guard by something particularly sneaky, or that you automatically get to go before creature who are similarly on guard against intruders.
If the monsters are not paying particular attention, then a circumstance penalty on their perception rolls to hear the party coming is appropriate. If they fail their check, then you get a surprise round. If they make it, then they hear you coming and are just as ready for that door opening as you are. No surprise round. Either way, you can't ready outside of combat.
Quote: When did I saw you couldn't fire your bow outside of initiative? You can. You're just not doing it in combat rounds or using the combat system to do so. But not readying actions from the same chapter under the same category...? That's a cool arbitrary choice you made there for your table.
Quote: Adventurers do explore dungeons on full alert. This is part of why you get passive perception checks. Passive perception is ALWAYS true for anything that you would perceive with your usual always-on senses from your current position.
Quote: However, this doesn't mean you can't be caught off-guard by something particularly sneaky, or that you automatically get to go before creature who are similarly on guard against intruders. Yes, this is true, because both PCs AND NPCs can ready actions, so the PCs are at no special advantage mechanically for being able to do so that gives them any sort of auto success.
If both you and the monster have readied actions for when the door opens, then the PC isn't automatically going first anymore... if only one of them does, then that one's gonna go first.
Crimeo wrote:
If both you and the monster have readied actions for when the door opens, then the PC isn't automatically going first anymore... if only one of them does, then that one's gonna go first.
This would favor casters and one hit wonders over people that need full round actions to be effective (ie, most melee) because then everyone would only have partial actions when the door opens.
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Melkiador wrote: I find the whole "combat hasn't started", so flat footed concept silly. If you want to force combat, just have your weakest party member take an unarmed strike on your party's "tank" who is taking a full defense action every round. Bam, you suddenly have combat and aren't flat footed anymore, because the rules are silly here. A lot of people say this, and I've seen a lot of GM's screw this up saying that since everyone was talking, no one is flat footed. I explain it like this: Ever watch a horror movie that you've seen before. In an intense scene you know the monster is going to jump out, and when it does, you still flinch. You lost the intuitive you were still surprised when the event actually happened. That's what intuitive means. This also applies to the "ready to open a door" scenario too. No one knows exactly when the door is going to be opened, and when it does, you may flinch and lose init.
Let's look at it when there is a surprise round: Monsters were knew you were coming, were waiting to ambush you. You make your perception roll and roll intuitive, and you win. If we step out of game mechanics for a minute, the monsters were waiting for you, except your reflexes are so fast that you saw them, assessed the situation, and attacked before they had a chance to spring the attack.
Now if you think that's unrealistic, meh, have you ever looked at Perception? With a 30 Perception, which isn't that unreasonable at around level 10 or so, you can hear something burrowing under you from 60' away by rolling a 1 or higher on a d20. Just something to consider.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Intuitive?
Is that a new game mechanic or did auto-correct win that combat?
BigNorseWolf wrote: Crimeo wrote:
If both you and the monster have readied actions for when the door opens, then the PC isn't automatically going first anymore... if only one of them does, then that one's gonna go first.
This would favor casters and one hit wonders over people that need full round actions to be effective (ie, most melee) because then everyone would only have partial actions when the door opens. Readied actions carry a penalty, especially if you resolve them before you roll initiative. It locks you into a specific action when you might want to do something else once you see the situation. If there is no surprise round, it cuts off half your action. If you would have rolled high for initiative anyways, you're better off just going on your initiative.
So no, it's not an automatic 'win' button for anyone.
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