Here's my IDEAL situation with the build I'm looking at:
Build, rogue 5, TWF, Quickdraw, Persuasive, Betrayer, Underhanded rogue talent.
We find a opponent that doesn't exactly want to fight. We start to talk, and I change his attitude using diplomacy. Betrayer now allows me a immediate attack if I want one. I activate the surprise round, as my immediate action from betrayer, I draw my weapon and stab him, dealing max sneak attack damage from underhanded. As the only one acting in the surprise round, I take a swift action to shoot a dagger loaded in a spring loaded wrist sheath out, and my standard to do another max damage sneak attack.
Now initiatives get rolled. If I get lucky and go first, I can do another 2 attacks with regular sneak attack, as he's still flat footed.
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Side note: Nobody "reached for his gun" (and nobody reached for a blaster, either) because during the surprise round, they each had their blaster already in hand. If you're contention is that, in the original version, Greedo had his gun aimed straight at Han and pulled the trigger but Han's trigger finger was faster than Greedo's trigger finger even though Greedo squeezed the trigger first, well, that's pretty far-fetched and not really what the film shows. But if you want to make that claim, then I'd say that Greedo still acted in the surprise round but Han, being at least a 4th level rogue, had Uncanny Dodge and was also able to act in the surprise round, winning initiative and blasting first even though Greedo started moving his trigger finger before Han.
All this proves is I'm a little rusty with my Star Wars lore. So i re-watched the original scene.
By the rules of Pathfinder both Greedo and Han are fully aware of each other.
So once combat begins here is how i see it.
1. Han Solo declares to the DM that he is going to pull out his gun and shoot Greedo.
2. The DM determines they are both aware of each other and declares Initiative.
3. Han reacts faster and gets a higher Initiative.
4. Han uses a move action to pull out blaster and standard to shoot.
5. Greedo is toast.
Side Note: Uncanny Dodge doesn't work that way. It doesn't allow you to act in the Surprise Round.
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Here's my IDEAL situation with the build I'm looking at:
Build, rogue 5, TWF, Quickdraw, Persuasive, Betrayer, Underhanded rogue talent.
We find a opponent that doesn't exactly want to fight. We start to talk, and I change his attitude using diplomacy. Betrayer now allows me a immediate attack if I want one. I activate the surprise round, as my immediate action from betrayer, I draw my weapon and stab him, dealing max sneak attack damage from underhanded. As the only one acting in the surprise round, I take a swift action to shoot a dagger loaded in a spring loaded wrist sheath out, and my standard to do another max damage sneak attack.
Now initiatives get rolled. If I get lucky and go first, I can do another 2 attacks with regular sneak attack, as he's still flat footed.
Might as well stack some knife master archetype on that.
Edited for Cheese: Then throw in a cheese wedge and Refine Improvised Weapon.
Might as well stack some knife master archetype on that.Here's my IDEAL situation with the build I'm looking at:
Build, rogue 5, TWF, Quickdraw, Persuasive, Betrayer, Underhanded rogue talent.
We find a opponent that doesn't exactly want to fight. We start to talk, and I change his attitude using diplomacy. Betrayer now allows me a immediate attack if I want one. I activate the surprise round, as my immediate action from betrayer, I draw my weapon and stab him, dealing max sneak attack damage from underhanded. As the only one acting in the surprise round, I take a swift action to shoot a dagger loaded in a spring loaded wrist sheath out, and my standard to do another max damage sneak attack.
Now initiatives get rolled. If I get lucky and go first, I can do another 2 attacks with regular sneak attack, as he's still flat footed.
Screw that, go sap master. Do sneak attack damage twice for every single attack before he acts. Make sure to bludgeon him to death with a cheese wheel.
Answer linkified.If you CAN'T get a surprise round with a concealed weapon then why even bother putting that in there, and or why does this talent even exist.Answer: because you can.
Although I'm sure somebody will say that the purpose of this feat is so that, if you kick down a door and surprise an enemy, you can pull a dagger out of your ear and do max sneak attack damage with the dagger you had previously concealed in your ear before you ever even kicked down the door - regardless of the question of why it matters that you used the hidden dagger in your ear rather than the unhidden dagger in your hand.
Nice. I've been searching for stuff like this to help build a Rogue PC.
I was actually planning on going waylayer archtype, allowing me to do d8s in the surprise round and get bonus initiative after. I looked at knife master, sapper is best for dpr I think, but I like the versatility and bonus to conceal daggers. And for flavor, I can just leave all the daggers in him. 4 daggers stuck in you in 6 seconds. And a bonus point of damage since they've all been whetstoned ;)
But real talk no one see's anything illegal or rule breaking with this? I thought of the idea and it seems pretty solid. I mean, hard to set up for sure, but with decent stats I can put out like 90 damage in the first round if everything goes right*
Seems legit.
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Apparently the Giant Hunter's handbook has rules for bluff to appear harmless. But while d20pfsrd has mechanics for doing it, they don't say what the mechanical results are. (I'm not even sure if it is in there for hunters to get surprise on the giants, or if it is in there for the giants to not panic the neighbors when they com calling.)
Anyone got the book?
It is not, AFAIK, ever specified whether this means "you are aware that the person is here, even if you don't know whether he is an enemy" or "you are aware of the person AND his enemy status" The latter makes much more common sense IMO.
I do not mean to lump you in with this assessment, but any time I have run in to the latter interpretation of that phrasing, is by people who wish to undermine the current system for handling initiative. I feel that that phrase "being aware of each other" to be a fully sufficient explanation.
Maybe people reject them because they are inherently unheroic, but there are a lot of perfectly normal things that can happen to foil a person's intention to do harm, and action to do harm.
Here's a list of things that might explain the gap between a player saying "I stab him" (which really only states his intention to stab the other), and his character's execution of that action:
The character has a tell-
(like a nervous twitch of the 'stab hand',)
(or unknowingly dropping into a combat stance,)
(or even a sharp intake of breath to prep for action)
The character stumbles while trying to act
The character gets excited and makes the initial drawing motion, but does not pull the dagger; and must regrab the hilt and draw again
The character has the dagger in hand, but jostles it briefly
The character fails to get the dagger out of it's sheath cleanly
All of the above would register to me as ways someone would intend to stab someone, project their intention, and get beaten to the punch before doing it. You would be surprised, no pun intended, by the ways even well-trained people can foil their own attempts to act suddenly when trying to suddenly act.
Neither of those:
I have them roll initiative when either they or my npc intends to do an action that would harm the other. My examples show why knowing whether or not they are an enemy before initiative is not relevant: they are displaying their intent, and that triggers the initiative. It is the flashpoint when something happens that begins the fight. What that something is- is not necessarily a completed attack, but is good enough to let people aware of each other know that one's coming.
People train to become really good at that first attack. I wouldn't rob them of their training by saying joe fighter is as good at getting the drop on people as you, because he talks to them first. Or doesn't talk to them. Or whatever myriad way he does absolutely nothing and that grants him a free attack because his player was the first at table to shout "I'm no longer doing nothing!"
Let's flip it around and make ourselves players with a DM that employs this tactic. What prevents a)the DM from getting a surprise round every combat b)parties from wasting massive amounts of time posturing to get and/or prevent what will _always_ be a surprise round beginning to each fight c)endless arguments over who really intended to stab the other first, or (more realistically, because I've been in them) whether or not a surprise round should happen because the player 'just knew' an attack was coming, though they didn't do anything to prep for it.
The answer is initiative. If you take feats or abilities that augment it, you get a better chance at getting that initial attack (or foiling it). If you don't, then you're relying on your character's pure gut instincts to carry you to act first by rolling and hoping they notice the threat and/or don't mess up in threatening.
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Awareness of hostile action is the keyword. The moment someone is quietly reaching for a concealed weapon, there's a surprise round (as people are rolling for awareness at this point, perception vs. sleight of hand; same applies for perception vs. stealth if someone just disappears via hide in plain sight; same applies for perception of someone casting a spell because the rules call for a perception to notice a spell is being cast before you get to make a spellcraft to identify).
If there was a rule to conceal the drawing of a non-concealed weapon, I'd say those guys would also get a chance to get a jump on everyone, but I'm not aware of such a rule (I'm sure a trait, spell, feat exists somewhere though... or should... i.e. lightning draw from samurai comes to mind...)
But then what happens in a situation like this. Rogue sneaks up on a fighter. Says, alright, I stab him. You call for initiative. Even though the rogue gets a surprise round, you roll initiative first. Rogue rolls a 1. Knowing the fighter will probably go first after the surprise round and full attack him, he doesn't attack. Now no combat happens.
These two sentences are not the same.
True. But dissecting them is just as disingenuous as creating an imaginary line of text that makes "aware of each other" somehow vague. The time it takes for me to decide to attack someone and carrying out that action is the difference between the two sentences, and it is covered by a roll for initiative.
Which is it: intention, or KNOWLEDGE of intention?
It is knowledge, which is covered by my examples of the time between the intention and carrying it out. Also by the result of an initiative roll.
What prevents a)the DM from getting a surprise round every combat b)parties from wasting massive amounts of time posturing to get and/or prevent what will _always_ be a surprise round beginning to each fight c)endless arguments over who really intended to stab the other first
Why would there by arguments...? Do players not have long enough memories to know who announced attacking first?Please see:
b)parties from wasting massive amounts of time posturing to get and/or prevent what will _always_ be a surprise round beginning to each fight
Because I now know that I can completely circumvent initiative rolls by being the hot-headed jag at the table, or the most hot-headed, as it will quickly become. "And to hell with the rest of you with your improved initiative feats, betrayer feats, bluffs, assassin skills, etc; I announced I was attacking! Haha! you may go second if you are lucky!"
Whoever attacks first is simple and objective. I also allow all characters to do sense motive vs. bluff if relevant to negate the surprise round if desired when they are looking at the attacker.
This thread proves two things: 1)it is an example of people arguing over who goes first in and of itself, answering my c)point for you, 2)Going first is not really simple and objective- if it were initiative wouldn't be necessary. Initiative makes it seem so by making an abstraction of it.
All you are doing is adding houseruling to explain what is already covered by initiative. In essence, you're making something concrete for a part of intiative that doesn't grok for you. I gave you a list of examples it might grok within RAW, but you don't seem inclined towards them. A flat SM vs bluff is like initiative for initiative. If you and your players like that, you don't need my permission to run it, but it's not RAW.
tchayl, it goes this way: the moment the rogue declares "I stab him", he/she does it, no matter the result of the initiative roll.
More accurately: the moment the rogue declares "I stab him", he begins doing something that would, under normal circumstances, end with an attack. That something, clues everyone else in that an attack is coming.
It might, depending on the initiative roll, be something that takes so long, that the fighter gets a full attack off before completing the attack that started the fight.
There is a difference between declaring an action and completing it.
Don't overcomplicate things. When someone declares a hostile act then you roll initiative. If the person declaring hostility rolls poorly, he didn't act quite fast enough.
If it is a situation where one side doesn't reasonably suspect violence is imminent, such as sitting around a dinner table with friends, opposed skill checks (bluff vs sense motive or stealth vs perception depending n precise circumstances) to see if there is a surprise round.
Easy!
If you had no warning...unless they're working off of facial twitches or other "tells" which is why I allow bluff vs. sense motive still.
Look, I get we won't ever agree on this, but you've just given an example (and proven you didn't read mine, because I covered this one), of exactly what initiative's super vague text covers. You fill in the blanks as you see fit, but this is it. This is exactly it. Attacking isn't instantaneous, and sometimes muscles don't work the way we want them to. sometimes something else gets in the way of our muscles working properly, like being startled by the sharp noise that had nothing to with anything but went off just as you were attacking. So many things can happen between thinking I stab and stabbing, and initiative is fuzzy in order to cover them, abstractly.
Yes, if you are an a$~!~&* AND have high bluff skill, then you will get to act first usually. So what? This minor advantage if abused will get you into way more trouble getting yourself almost killed all the damn time fighting things you didn't even need to fight.
Remember I'm an a@#$@, I don't care about consequences, you've made it possible to game your system just by being me.
So I guess think about that. I gotta leave for work, so I can't keep hashing this out, but think about tells and other small things that get in the way between thought and action- that's initiative in a nutshell. People want to augment that with bluff and other stuff, great, but without all that other stuff, initiative has it covered. You think bluff handles tells, fine. We like our combats to run differently. RAW, though, initiative already has all this covered.
You're still flatfooted until you make your first combat action. That's the rule.As Brain says, no surprise round.
The only real question is "Should people be flat footed before they act?" It seems odd to me that you would still be flat footed after staring down a potential fight for a certain length of time.
My take on this to prevent flat-footed shenanigans during a drawn out process where everybody has weapons drawn and is waiting for combat to start is as follows: Everybody rolled initiative when negotiations started, and now they are all delaying every round until the fighting starts.
There is a difference between declaring an action and completing it.Yes but there is not any difference between declaring an action and committing to it. You don't get to ever say "I stab him" and then based on rolls decide "nevermind I don't actually even try to stab him"
Still a lot of rolls between declaring/committing to an action and completing it. Rules, you know. Obnoxious things that keep getting in the way of all the cool things we want to do to win the game by just declaring "I go first because shotgun!".
To me, the question is whether the other side can figure out what's about to go down. It's like we're trying to sense someone's intentions... motives if you will.
Bluff check opposed by Sense Motive. It acts like Perception typically would. If it's particularly unfriendly, they get a bonus to notice you're getting ready to grab your weapon.
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I agree with TOZ that, for simplicity sake, that surprised combatants are not required to roll for Initiative til the turn they are able to act, but those are just personal preferences.
Well, the rules DO say you roll initiative for everyone, but for ease of play I find it better to just resolve the surprise round beforehand when there is only one or two people acting.
If you guys are talking, and I ready an action to attack if anyone initiates hostilities, has combat started? Am I flat-footed?
I've had this argument too, in relation to readied actions for when a door between two aware parties opens. I just proceeded with normal initiative and let the character decide if that was actually the action they wanted to proceed with on their turn.
If you guys are talking, and I ready an action to attack if anyone initiates hostilities, has combat started? Am I flat-footed?
You cannot ready an action outside of combat. Readying an action can be a declaration of hostility in and of itself. Roll initiative, you are flat footed until your turn, then you can ready formally. If everybody readies and or delays, nothing happens and dialogue can start again.
It is not always realistic, but the rules need to be in place to create structure where there is none. If it was enough to just go "I'm ready for a fight so I'm not flat-footed" or any such rationale, that's how everyone would start a game session. And if you can just narrate yourself past those rules, why not just narrate combat too.
Once again, no, you can't just 'shotgun' yourself past the rules.
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Who/what are you arguing against? The scenario written was "what if a rogue attacks, then rolls initiative, then decides not to attack?"
My answer was "That's not allowed." Which is true, it's not. I at no point was implying therefore that attacks automatically succeed... just that you are not allowed to decide not to attack at all after announcing you attack.
Actually not a rule in any way.
You can declare a full attack, then decide whether to continue with a full attack after the result of the first attack. You can indicate your intention to move down a hallway, and stop after 10' when the GM indicates you spot a hidden monster.
There are plenty of precedents that allow you to alter your declared actions at some point prior to the completion of that action.
There is nothing to stop you from declaring any action you want, if you don't get to act immediately after your declared action and the circumstances have changed by the time you get to act, there are absolutely no rules locking you into your declared action - none. Unless I've missed it and you have a citation?
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Bluff can be used to convince somebody of a lie that can indirectly get you a surprise round. That's basic order of operations.
When Crimeo and I agree on something, you know it must be pretty freaking obvious.
There is nothing to stop you from declaring any action you want, if you don't get to act immediately after your declared action and the circumstances have changed by the time you get to actSure, but no circumstances changed... literally nothing happened in the written scenario in between declaring and then trying to weasel out of it, except the gaining of meta knowledge about initiative rolls that don't matter/apply until after the surprise stab.
Everything changed - when you declare a combat action such as "I stab him" out of combat you immediately drop into combat before resolving that declared action - in come the awareness rolls, the initiative rolls - which don't happen in game, they exist purely to allow us, the players, to determine what happens, where we break down a large number of simultaneous actions into segmented sequential actions. During this time our characters are effectively paused while we, the players, work out the mechanics of what happens next. This can mean that you start to stab someone, but because you fail your bluff check and rolled low on initiative your target reacts before you, maybe you telegraphed your move, maybe he just anticipated really well, but it doesn't really matter how you rationalise it, that is what happened and you are now in a very different position than when you first declared you would attack and there is nothing stopping you from changing your declared action.
Of course, you can just skip the awareness rolls and the initiative checks... but then if you are doing that why not just skip the attack rolls.