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So in an adventure path I'm GMing, we're up to high enough levels that they just faced a big bad with Disintegrate, and the group's oracle went from full HP to pile of dust in a single shot. He's debating if he wants to be revived or just make a new PC.
They did beat that bad guy in the end, and he had a scroll of Limited Wish. Reading the spell description, it can't duplicate a Resurrection spell to bring the disintegrated guy back, but could it be used to get him part of the way there? For instance, "I wish instead of a pile of dust, Relyn was a fully intact corpse in the same condition he was in at the time of his death (other than being dead)" in order to get his body back so they can use a Raise Dead on him?
The point is that they already had a Raise Dead scroll, and now they have a Limited Wish scroll, so do they really need to spend money on Resurrection instead of using the two scrolls they already have? Of course, they still need to hire someone to cast them, since the pile of dust was the party healer.
Sounds totally reasonable to me.
You are correct that limited wish cannot bring somebody back who has been disintegrated.
The line you should focus on is this one.
Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or taking a -7 penalty on its next saving throw.
The answer to this question is "Ask the GM". Since you are the GM, my counter question is "Do you think that is within the power scope of the other abilities of limited wish?" Completely up to you.
Personally, I would allow that limited wish to work. However I am a very evil DM and I would also make it appear somewhere else since they didn't specify a location. But that's just my take on it. Others may disagree.
As the GM, the limitations of spells like limited wish, wish, and miracle are really up to you.
Personally, I'd allow it. It doesn't really serve as a cheap resurrection as the raised character still has to deal with two permanent negative levels.
Once you factor in the scroll costs and the extra casting of restoration the final cost works out to roughly the same.
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Seem right.
Limited wish say:
"Undo the harmful effects of many spells, such as geas/quest or insanity."
and
"Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools."
so it can't duplicate Resurrection, but it can remove part of the harmful effect of disintegrate, the part that turn the body to dust.
After all it can remove the consequences of Insanity, and that is a 7th level spell.
So I think it can remove the "harmful effect 2 of disintegrate, but that alone will not return the character to life, only give you an intact corpse.
Then they can use raise dead.
I wouldn't allow Limited Wish to return the body to normal.
"Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes: one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from gaining a permanent negative level."
That is a section of the Wish spell. Emphasis mine.
So it would seem that restoring a body that has been destroyed as such is in the realm of 9th level spells. A cheaper option would be to just use a normal resurrection spell, since the fine dust of a disintegrated body is enough.
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I find it's a good idea to be forgiving with interpretations of what reality altering spells (like wish, miracle, and limited wish) can do when they're restorative - they're fixing a problem and returning to a normal state from a lower one. It's when the reality altering spell seeks to increase a character's power above their norm that I think about creative and vexing interpretations on the terms of the spell.
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Limited Wish is too limited (pun intended) for body recreation. This is explicitly in the realm of what you need a full Wish for.
Jarbrain already cited the source.
I do agree that it's a powerful cast of limited wish, which is why I would make the body appear somewhere where they would have to go on a quest for it. High level spell + money + effort = enough resources spent IMHO.
I would probably also throw a time limit on it. You can bring back a recently disintegrated body, but not one that happened a long time ago. No bringing back ancient heroes with a 7th level spell.
I'd also make a distinction between a body that has been destroyed completely (which requires two wishes or a true resurrection to bring back) and a body that has merely been turned to ash.
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You are correct that limited wish cannot bring somebody back who has been disintegrated.
The line you should focus on is this one.
Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or taking a -7 penalty on its next saving throw.The answer to this question is "Ask the GM". Since you are the GM, my counter question is "Do you think that is within the power scope of the other abilities of limited wish?" Completely up to you.
Personally, I would allow that limited wish to work. However I am a very evil DM and I would also make it appear somewhere else since they didn't specify a location. But that's just my take on it. Others may disagree.
That's pretty much why I was asking. This seems like a reasonable use of Limited Wish to me, but I wanted to get second opinions. It'll be at least two weeks until we meet again, so I figured I'd take the time to be thorough in looking it up and thinking about it.
I think they already have the Restoration scrolls they need, too. The disintegrated oracle didn't have Raise Dead or Restoration as known spells, so they intentionally prepared in advance for him to be able to cast them from scrolls should the need arise "in the field". The plan in case he died was for the party sorceress to teleport his body and the scrolls back to town and find a cleric to use the scrolls on him. Give them props for preparation and having a plan.
They still need to find a caster who can use the Raise Dead scroll. They do have two low level cleric NPC friends in the towns they've saved from evil who would probably do it cheap, if not free. But they're both low enough level that rolling high enough to use the scroll isn't guaranteed. The party sorceress can do the Limited Wish, and once he's back, he can do the Restorations on himself.
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The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature's body still exists, it can be resurrected, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature's body at the time of death. (The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.) The creature can have been dead no longer than 10 years per caster level.
The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature's body still exists, it can be reincarnated, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature's body at the time of death.
Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
Reincarnate is a 4th level druid spell. Problem solved.
As show, Limited wish alone can bring back the deceased character, so I would allow the more costly option of using Limited wish and Raise dead to get him back in his original body.
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I'd also make a distinction between a body that has been destroyed completely (which requires two wishes or a true resurrection to bring back) and a body that has merely been turned to ash.
Yeah, the dust from Disintegrate is enough to only need Resurrection, not Wish or True Resurrection, so there's obviously a difference there.
The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature's body still exists, it can be resurrected, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature's body at the time of death. (The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.) The creature can have been dead no longer than 10 years per caster level.The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature's body still exists, it can be reincarnated, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature's body at the time of death.Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.Reincarnate is a 4th level druid spell. Problem solved.
As show, Limited wish alone can bring back the deceased character, so I would allow the more costly option of using Limited wish and Raise dead to get him back in his original body.
When our Shaman got disintegrated in our play through if Iron Gods, we got him reincarnated by a nearby druid. And we were all disappointed when he came back as just a human. Of all the races he could have been, his dice roll had to come up a plain jane human? Personally I was hoping for Gnoll.
But for reincarnate the limits are they had to die in the past week, they soul has to be free to return (no being owned by devils etc) and it has to want to come back. The condition of the corpse doesn't matter as long as some small portion of it exists. Disintegrated bits counts as a small part.
Which is hilarious to watch a party member scoop into a bag of holding as quickly as possible while under fire, let me tell ya.
Yeah, if you have the dust from the Disintegrate, then it would only need resurrection, so I would allow Limited Wish to restore the corpse from the dust. If the dust had been scattered by a gust of wind or the equivalent and you didn't have it, then you would need the full wish.
Limited Wish can't restore a body. You need a Wish for that.
Limited Wish can duplicate a Reincarnate. (Which has its Pros and Cons)
Other than that you need a Resurrection or better.
Feel free to rule it otherwise but that is the rules.
Limited Wish can't restore a body. You need a Wish for that.
That is left up to GM interpretation. You say it shouldn't be powerful enough, and that is your right to enforce that in your own game. It is not RAW to say that Limited Wish cannot restore a body. Part of the text is literally saying "Ask your GM".
You cannot and will not enforce your interpretation on other GMs in their own games.
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Yeah, if you have the dust from the Disintegrate, then it would only need resurrection, so I would allow Limited Wish to restore the corpse from the dust. If the dust had been scattered by a gust of wind or the equivalent and you didn't have it, then you would need the full wish.Limited Wish can't restore a body. You need a Wish for that.
Limited Wish can duplicate a Reincarnate. (Which has its Pros and Cons)
Other than that you need a Resurrection or better.
Feel free to rule it otherwise but that is the rules.
Per Resurrection, The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.
The entire text of the Wish Spell on reviving the dead is as follows:
Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes: one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from gaining a permanent negative level.
Per the rules, a body in dust form is not destroyed for the purposes of Resurrection and thus for the purposes of Wish.
Limited Wish should allow the dust to be formed into a corpse, that can then be raised as a corpse.
Limited Wish can't restore a body. You need a Wish for that.That is left up to GM interpretation. You say it shouldn't be powerful enough, and that is your right to enforce that in your own game. It is not RAW to say that Limited Wish cannot restore a body. Part of the text is literally saying "Ask your GM".
You cannot and will not enforce your interpretation on other GMs in their own games.
Sorry this is the Rules Question forum.
You need a Wish to restore a corpse. I already quoted my source.
Limited Wish is a 7th Level Spell.
It also never mentions "Ask your GM"
It says;
"Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or taking a –7 penalty on its next saving throw."
It can't reproduce the effects of a 9th Level Spell.
Yeah, if you have the dust from the Disintegrate, then it would only need resurrection, so I would allow Limited Wish to restore the corpse from the dust. If the dust had been scattered by a gust of wind or the equivalent and you didn't have it, then you would need the full wish.Limited Wish can't restore a body. You need a Wish for that.
Limited Wish can duplicate a Reincarnate. (Which has its Pros and Cons)
Other than that you need a Resurrection or better.
Feel free to rule it otherwise but that is the rules.
Per Resurrection, The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.
The entire text of the Wish Spell on reviving the dead is as follows:
Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes: one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from gaining a permanent negative level.Per the rules, a body in dust form is not destroyed for the purposes of Resurrection and thus for the purposes of Wish.
Limited Wish should allow the dust to be formed into a corpse, that can then be raised as a corpse.
Why should Limited Wish be able to do that? It can't even duplicate the effects of a Resurrection.
"Sure would be handy if this scroll was of Wish, not limited wish. Wait, is this a smudge? Oh, it's a scroll of Wish after all."
Problem solved.
You need a Wish to restore a corpse. I already quoted my source.
You need a wish to restore a corpse that has been destroyed, as in one that has no parts available. The corpse in question here has only been turned to ash; it specifically does have parts available.
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Why should Limited Wish be able to do that? It can't even duplicate the effects of a Resurrection.Yeah, if you have the dust from the Disintegrate, then it would only need resurrection, so I would allow Limited Wish to restore the corpse from the dust. If the dust had been scattered by a gust of wind or the equivalent and you didn't have it, then you would need the full wish.Limited Wish can't restore a body. You need a Wish for that.
Limited Wish can duplicate a Reincarnate. (Which has its Pros and Cons)
Other than that you need a Resurrection or better.
Feel free to rule it otherwise but that is the rules.
Per Resurrection, The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.
The entire text of the Wish Spell on reviving the dead is as follows:
Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes: one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from gaining a permanent negative level.Per the rules, a body in dust form is not destroyed for the purposes of Resurrection and thus for the purposes of Wish.
Limited Wish should allow the dust to be formed into a corpse, that can then be raised as a corpse.
Why should wish be able to revive a corpse that has been destroyed? It can't replicate the effects of 9th level spells like True Resurrection. Yet it can with two castings. So it can duplicate half of a True Resurrection.
Likewise, It's not unreasonable for limited wish to apply the effect of half of a 7th level spell like Resurrection.
Why should wish be able to revive a corpse that has been destroyed? It can't replicate the effects of 9th level spells like True Resurrection. Yet it can with two castings. So it can duplicate half of a True Resurrection.
Because it says you can in the listings of what it does. Which has nothing to do with True Resurrection.
Likewise, It's not unreasonable for limited wish to apply the effect of half of a 7th level spell like Resurrection.
Source?
I didn't realize you could use fractions of spells like that.Limited Wish can on duplicate the effects of 5th or lower divine spells.
So Reincarnate is viable but has the downside of random body.
Look like i said its fine if people want to use it how they want i don't care. But if your going to claim RAW for Limited Wish restoring corpses at least provide a source or rule quote.
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Why should Limited Wish be able to do that? It can't even duplicate the effects of a Resurrection.Yeah, if you have the dust from the Disintegrate, then it would only need resurrection, so I would allow Limited Wish to restore the corpse from the dust. If the dust had been scattered by a gust of wind or the equivalent and you didn't have it, then you would need the full wish.Limited Wish can't restore a body. You need a Wish for that.
Limited Wish can duplicate a Reincarnate. (Which has its Pros and Cons)
Other than that you need a Resurrection or better.
Feel free to rule it otherwise but that is the rules.
Per Resurrection, The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.
The entire text of the Wish Spell on reviving the dead is as follows:
Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes: one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from gaining a permanent negative level.Per the rules, a body in dust form is not destroyed for the purposes of Resurrection and thus for the purposes of Wish.
Limited Wish should allow the dust to be formed into a corpse, that can then be raised as a corpse.
Your interpretation hinges on what is "destroyed".
As Resurrection can bring back a disintegrated body and wish can mimic resurrection, there is space to argue that disintegrated is different from destroyed as reviving a destroyed creature require 2 wishes.
Look like i said its fine if people want to use it how they want i don't care. But if your going to claim RAW for Limited Wish restoring corpses at least provide a source or rule quote.
Same problem with your post. You claim RAW, but RAW seem to imply that disintegrated =/= destroyed.
Well, they came up with a good idea and are willing to spend resources on getting a mate back. Finally, it's no fun for the oracle player to just sit around till they figure out another way. Rolling a new character often isn't fun either. But probably the player wants to start over, I recommend a private conversation about that.
If you want to stick to the strict ruling, let them reincarnate. In case the oracle dislikes the new race, send them (or him) on a small quest to regain his old body. They / he could help a powerful outsider to get back an item or break out of confinement - which might result in further consequences.
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Fine, lets go back to limited wish itself.
Undo the harmful effects of many spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
Insanity is a 7th level spell. Disintegrate is a 6th level spell. Disintegrate's harmful effect is reducing a corpse to dust. Per the Resurrection and True Resurrection spells, we know dust is not destroyed in game terms. Using limited wish to remove the dust, restoring the corpse is in line with the spells power limits when looking at the power level of Wish vs Limited Wish, and the power level of Resurrection and True Resurrection.
Reincarnation followed by questing to recover his true form.
There is no source for interpretation. That's why it's left up to interpretation. There is no master list of all things available to do with a limited wish spell. It's left up to interpretation, and you cannot tell people that their interpretation is wrong because it's entirely left up to their discretion. You don't get to enforce your rulings on other people's games when an ability is, by RAW, subject to interpretation.
You don't get to enforce your rulings on other people's games when an ability is, by RAW, subject to interpretation.
I've said countless times that i don't give a damn how people rule it in their own games. I'm not the Pathfinder Police.
I want something RAW for my own purposes.
Please watch your language and try to remain civil.
There is nothing RAW for all the capabilities of limited wish. It's left up to whatever you think is reasonable. Period.
Please watch your language and try to remain civil.
There is nothing RAW for all the capabilities of limited wish. It's left up to whatevet you think is reasonable. Period.
Great. Wonderful.
Let me just tell my DM CampinCarl9127 said its cool. That totally fixed my issue.
At least some others gave me something to work with. Like Reincarnate or the Undo Harmful effects portion of Limited Wish.
But because i said so doesn't help me. Let it go.
Great. Wonderful.
Let me just tell my DM CampinCarl9127 said its cool. That totally fixed my issue.
It's left up to whatever *the DM* thinks is reasonable.
I'm sorry that you feel that way, but Pathfinder is a game where you have to apply logic as well as understand the rules.
Great. Wonderful.
Let me just tell my DM CampinCarl9127 said its cool. That totally fixed my issue.
It's left up to whatever *the DM* thinks is reasonable.
I'm sorry that you feel that way, but Pathfinder is a game where you have to apply logic as well as understand the rules.
I fully understand and agree with you.
But for my situation it doesn't help. Do you understand that?
I've repeated multiple times that is fine and dandy for everyone else.
I needed more than that. I got a few concrete examples for my situation.
In my group what you keep trying to shove down my throat doesn't help me. Its just getting annoying to have you keep saying the same s!@! to me on repeat when I've already said cool bro, but that doesn't help me.
I am trying to shove nothing down your throat. Specifically I am saying the opposite; that you are allowed to rule it however you want. I'm not sure how telling you to do what you want is shoving anything down your throat, unless you consider freedom oppressing.
I keep repeating it because you keep repeating the same thing. The same question deserves the same answer.
If you are annoyed, I apologize. It wasn't my intention.
What is it specifically that you're trying to get help with that "left up to interpretation" doesn't help with?
I am trying to shove nothing down your throat. Specifically I am saying the opposite; that you are allowed to rule it however you want. I'm not sure how telling you to do what you want is shoving anything down your throat, unless you consider freedom oppressing.
I keep repeating it because you keep repeating the same thing. The same question deserves the same answer.
If you are annoyed, I apologize. It wasn't my intention.
What is it specifically that you're trying to get help with that "left up to interpretation" doesn't help with?
Okay. For the last time.
I don't need interpretation. I needed things that work no matter what.
Regardless of GM. Is that simply enough for you?
Otherwise i totally agree. But not all GMs will agree.
I'm also sorry for getting spicy with my words.
The dust was exposed to cloudkill. I would rule that the new body had died from poison. If you want to play Genie, I would have the body be a complete, dead, wivern(but capable of benefiting from raise dead). Bring all these options to your GM and tell him the exact wording of the spell you use. Tell him you cast the limited wish and will 'live' with the consequences.
If you're going by the rules. The OP is asking to get from a limited Wish what would normally take 2 wish spells to execute, or a wish and a resurrection.
That is highly debatable as Diego Rossi, Imbicatus and others points out above.
1) wish duplicates resurrection2) resurrection explicitly allows the restoration of a disintegrated individual
3) Wish explicitly states a destroyed body requires 2 wishes
4) conclusion: disintegrated=/=destroyed (for the purposes of these spells)
In that gap there is room to argue that restoring a disintegrated body requires less magic than that required to restore a destroyed body.
The wish description says that you need to use two wishes to duplicate resurrection for a body that has been destroyed. That is the context that should be kept in mind for the entire passage. With that in mind, I don't think it's clear that a wish is required to restore a body that has been destroyed, rather that wish can accomplish something that needs to be done to fulfill the desire of resurrecting someone whose body has been destroyed. Maybe other spells can, like limited wish, as well.
Okay. For the last time.
I don't need interpretation. I needed things that work no matter what.
Regardless of GM. Is that simply enough for you?
Otherwise i totally agree. But not all GMs will agree.
The only things that work no matter what are what is specifically listed in the description of the spell, or something that is so obviously in line with the described effects that there is no interpretation (i.e. making an opponent miss with a single attack as opposed to making an ally hit with a single attack).
I'm also sorry for getting spicy with my words.
No worries. We all get heated in certain threads.
If you want to really get into "no body left at all", I'm sure the character left some skin cells on their clothes or some hair cells on their brush or some skin cells on their water skin, etc. Let's just regenerate them like Wolverine.
I was not referring to the regenerate spell.
Raw isn't about what it's not. And you're purposely ignoring the text which says it takes two full wishes to bring back a destroyed body. Disintegrate certainly counts as "destroyed" in my book.
That's a totally valid interpretation.
I just believe that while wish can bring back a body, that does not mean that limited wish cannot. I can use both limited wish and wish to cast magic missile. Just because wish is capable of doing something does not mean that limited wish cannot do the same thing. In my opinion limited wish is enough to bring back a corpse.
But you disagreeing with that is absolutely fine. I would certainly accept that if you were the GM, despite me ruling it differently in my own game.
Such is GM discretion.