I have a couple of questions about the gate spell, more specifically the calling creatures aspect.
1. Since a spell like ability does not require material components am I right in assuming that a spell like ability would waive the 10,000 gp cost of calling a creature?
2. How long does it last? There does not appear to have any time limit on the creature who is called.
3. If it is under my control and is there is no time limit could I technically not pay it anything and have it work for me for thousands of years?
thanks in advance
Honestly, here's the question to be asked: if you personally had that ability, would you pass up the 10,000gp? Add in the idea that your extraplanar reputation is riding on how you utilize that particular spell-like ability (and I imagine that'd pretty important for a Summoner), I'd personally make damn sure that the person requesting the service is ready to pay through the nose for it. Oh, you might do it for someone really in need (probably both in need and of your alignment), but I wouldn't bet cashy money on it.
At lv. 19 a summoner acquires the gate spell as a spell like ability. Since a spell like ability does not require material components am I right in assuming that the summoner would waive the 10,000 gp cost of calling a creature?
Summon Monster I (Sp): Starting at 1st level, a summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. Drawing upon this ability uses up the same power as the summoner uses to call his eidolon. As a result, he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned. He can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per level). At 3rd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the power of this ability increases by one spell level, allowing him to summon more powerful creatures (to a maximum of summon monster IX at 17th level). At 19th level, this ability can be used as gate or summon monster IX. If used as gate, the summoner must pay any required material components. A summoner cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster or gate immediately ends. These summon spells are considered to be part of his spell list for the purposes of spell trigger and spell completion items. In addition, he can expend uses of this ability to fufill the construction requirements of any magic item he creates, so long as he can use this ability to cast the required spell.
Yes, you have to pay the 10000gp.
At lv. 19 a summoner acquires the gate spell as a spell like ability. Since a spell like ability does not require material components am I right in assuming that the summoner would waive the 10,000 gp cost of calling a creature?Summon Monster I (Sp): Starting at 1st level, a summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. Drawing upon this ability uses up the same power as the summoner uses to call his eidolon. As a result, he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned. He can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per level). At 3rd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the power of this ability increases by one spell level, allowing him to summon more powerful creatures (to a maximum of summon monster IX at 17th level). At 19th level, this ability can be used as gate or summon monster IX. If used as gate, the summoner must pay any required material components. A summoner cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster or gate immediately ends. These summon spells are considered to be part of his spell list for the purposes of spell trigger and spell completion items. In addition, he can expend uses of this ability to fufill the construction requirements of any magic item he creates, so long as he can use this ability to cast the required spell.Yes, you have to pay the 10000gp.
I was not aware of that, nice catch. I added a couple of questions though, i was too hasty in my earlier posting
2. How long does it last? There does not appear to have any time limit on the creature who is called.
It was badly copied from 3.5
You first call one or several outsiders, costing you 10000gp. You control them for 1 round/level for free.
Beyond that, you need to bargain with it/them as with lesser planar ally.
The maximum duration you can have one outsider with you is 1 day/level.
You first call one or several outsiders, costing you 10000gp. You control them for 1 round/level for free.
Beyond that, you need to bargain with it/them as with lesser planar ally.
The maximum duration you can have one outsider with you is 1 day/level.
Is that an assumption on your part or is it RAW? (RAI or RAW) because I see nothing in the gate spell that lets me control it for 1 round/level and nothing stating that there is any max duration whatsoever, furthermore if there was such restrictions it would hardly be worthy of a 9th level spell when you could do basically the same thing without paying an extra 10,000gp with greater planar binding (granted there are a couple of differences between the 2 but nothing worth 10,000gp)
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I have a couple of questions about the gate spell, more specifically the calling creatures aspect.
1. Since a spell like ability does not require material components am I right in assuming that a spell like ability would waive the 10,000 gp cost of calling a creature?
2. How long does it last? There does not appear to have any time limit on the creature who is called.
3. If it is under my control and is there is no time limit could I technically not pay it anything and have it work for me for thousands of years?
thanks in advance
Gate
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Duration instantaneous or concentration (up to 1 round/level); see text
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If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. Some creatures may want their payment in “livestock” rather than in coin, which could involve complications. Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.
The Gate spell has a duration, see above.
The instantaneous part is only for the "pull" a creature part. Ir reference planar ally for reasonable reward (and that implies that you reference it for appropriate tasks too).From the Magic chapter:
Calling: A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can't be dispelled.
Lesser planar ally, the spell you are asked to use as a reference, is instantaneous and say:
A task taking up to 1 minute per caster level requires a payment of 100 gp per HD of the creature called. For a task taking up to 1 hour per caster level, the creature requires a payment of 500 gp per HD. A long-term task, one requiring up to 1 day per caster level, requires a payment of 1,000 gp per HD.
The Gate spell has a duration, see above.
The instantaneous part is only for the "pull" a creature part. Ir reference planar ally for reasonable reward (and that implies that you reference it for appropriate tasks too).
The duration you are referring to is for the teleportation aspect, there is apparently no duration on the calling effect, it says to see lesser planar ally for appropriate rewards, and thus, the tasks linked to them but it appears to be meant as a guideline.
Furthermore, how long does the "control" aspect last? If I have total control over a creature then there should be no need to reward them for their service right?According to your logic gate is a very minor improvement on planar ally except it costs 10,000gp right off the bat? for a 9th level spell? To me this makes no sense.
2. How long does it last? There does not appear to have any time limit on the creature who is called.The gate pull is instantaneous and then they are on your plane now permanently until they travel back.
Uncontrolled generic creature (overly high HD) OR any specific individual of ANY HD - it now runs around on your plane and does whatever it likes as long as it likes and goes back whenever it likes. It could stay and roam for 100 years if it wants.
You can also try to hire it to do stuff using the rates in lesser planar ally, but it wouldn't have to accept the deal.
Controlled generic creature - you control it forever, except in one important regard, which is that you do not control when it can go back to its home plane after completing any services you hire it for (before that you do). For services, the text refers you to lesser planar ally, which says anything hazardous up to 1 minute is 100gp/HD, etc. etc. Since there is no category for "longer than 1 day" in lesser planar ally, the maximum duration would therefore be 1 day for FULLY controlling a creature.
After services rendered, it says it is "freed to return to its own plane" so presumably you still control it in every sense EXCEPT when it returns to its own plane, which it will probably almost always decide to do immediately. I'm not sure what would happen if it didn't want to -- could you still make it? Seems unclear. But not really very important, because even if it refuses, you could just say "okay go hide under that rock forever then" and it would have to do so until it gave up and decided to return to its own plane.
3. If it is under my control and is there is no time limit could I technically not pay it anything and have it work for me for thousands of years?No, you can only pay for services taking up to 1 day, and after that it gains its freedom of choice for when to return home. See above. And if you don't pay after the agreed time (max 1 day), you become a slave of its god or...
Where does it state that you have control over it for 1 day, if you are referring to lesser planar ally it says 1 day/caster level but even then, it is only a guideline for rewards, nothing else. I understand that you are trying to help me, but what I need is not your/someone's interpretation of the spell, what I need is RAW, which is why I posted it in "Rules Questions".
God I hate this spell, it has some of the vaguest wording of any spell. Is there an FAQ on it or an errata because this is ridiculous... It might as well be " Do whatever or, like, have control over something for a time but... you know... you gotta pay it a bit or something or like they will be mad and s+#+"
When you say
And the longest provided category for service = 1 day.
where do you get this info? If it is from lesser planar ally then it should be 1 day per caster level I understand the category part of what you are saying, however, how do you equate the category of the services (i.e. 1 minute, 1 hour, 1 day) to the actual control of the creature, no where does it specify the length of the control, only "upon completion of the service it is free to return to its plane". Even if you were saying that the max time you have control over a creature is the same as the services part of lesser planar ally it should be 1 day/caster level...before it is free to return to it's plane.
2) You promise 3 day's pay for 3 day's work, and your CL is 3 or greater.
If I am in control of the creature, can't I require that he will demand no payment?
5) You now keep controlling it in every respect other than its ability to go back to its own plane at any time.
It does not state in the spell that it is teleported back to its own plane, only that it is "freed" to do so, does that mean that if it has no way of planar travel that I maintain control of it and can demand it do more services?
this is what I mean with gate, the wording way to vague, they were super thorough with magic jar (1 and a half pages worth of thoroughness) but with gate it seems that the devs just said "f+~% it, they'll figure it out" I would like to get a big discussion going about this with hundreds of posts to try and get the dev's attention on this poorly made spell, as it stands now this spell is like 75% DM's discretion because you have to extrapolate and interpretate, guess and discuss, deduce and compare... it is ridiculous.
Crimeo is incorrect. The only comparison to Planar Ally that Gate lists is the price for specific tasks with specific outsiders. Gate has no listed duration for the Calling Creatures aspect of the spell. If you call something through, it remains there until you dismiss it or it travels back itself (in the case of it being a higher HD than you, "An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.")
This spell is how powerful arcane casters get outsiders to be at their service for long periods of time. Given infinite time and money, you can create an infinitely sized army. With GM discretion of course.
If you try to get long-term service, you must negotiate with the creature, stronger than you or not. Stronger creatures can simply leave at any time. Weaker ones are not free to leave until they complete a task, but they must still be fairly compensated. At this point we are getting heavily into GM discretion on what is to be handled how. Technically as a level 17+ caster, you can control an army of outsiders at your HD or lower. However, as a GM, I would quickly make some of the more powerful beings come to investigate why all of their powerful lieutenants are suddenly disappearing, and you quickly have an epic-level encounter on your hands. Such is the danger of tampering with the planes.
If I am in control of the creature, can't I require that he will demand no payment?
You could certainly try. It would say no. You can prevent it from returning to its home plane for a certain length of time, but it's not your personal puppet. And if you forced it through torture or extortion to serve you for free, that thing would come back pissed and with friends.
It does not state in the spell that it is teleported back to its own plane, only that it is "freed" to do so, does that mean that if it has no way of planar travel that I maintain control of it and can demand it do more services?
Yes, certain low-powered outsiders cannot plane shift. If you are using Gate to call imps, you're playing it wrong. At the very least they would contact their powerful friends to plane shift them back.
I would like to get a big discussion going about this with hundreds of posts to try and get the dev's attention on this poorly made spell, as it stands now this spell is like 75% DM's discretion because you have to extrapolate and interpretate, guess and discuss, deduce and compare... it is ridiculous.
How about no. GM discretion is absolutely fine. It's one of the best tools of the game. Extrapolating and interpreting if a massive path of Pathfinder, like it or not. If you consider that ridiculous, then I would suggest playing a simpler system.
How about no. GM discretion is absolutely fine. It's one of the best tools of the game. Extrapolating and interpreting if a massive path of Pathfinder, like it or not. If you consider that ridiculous, then I would suggest playing a simpler system.
While what you say is true, you cannot deny the fact that some spells are -- how should I put this -- better worded and more concise than others which is why they come out with erratas and rule question forums and FAQ sections and so on and so forth, and in no way is that a bash on GM's discretion which is fine as you say, but when a spell is not worded/balanced/understood correctly it leads to confusion and correction. Gate is one such example, one that has not properly addressed imho. I understand and share your view on Extrapolating and interpreting, however there is a certain give and take on that front which is why RAW and RAI exist as 2 separate entities. What makes role-play games so good is that there is a fine balance between DM discretion and written rules, to suggest that me making a point about an unclear spell was meant as DM discretion as a whole is what is truly ridiculous.
As for your explanation about the spell (the 2nd post) I loved it, as a GM that is the kind of stuff I would do as well. That being said this question was about the clarification of the hazy rules surrounding Gate.
Nessus I agree that there are certain spells and abilities that are worded poorly and should be looked at. I do not believe gate is one of them. Also, inexperienced GMs should not be handling 9th level magic.
Crimeo You have a very strict interpretation of what appropriate compensation is. I'm fairly certain if you bound an an outsider under Sarenrae to help stop a cult of Rovagug, they would consider the work important enough to work beyond the normal limits. While I agree that your very literal interpretation of compensation can work, I would take a much more dynamic and flexible approach to it.
However, this is also the section of the rules where I am the absolute strongest in. Summoning and binding and planes are my forte; anything that has to do with outsiders. Getting into outsiders and other planes is vastly more complex than the core and accompanying books suggest.
Gate only allows for the option to roleplay with an outsider to get their help, and it lists suggested values for certain jobs with certain outsiders. This spell is 10% mechanics 90% roleplaying. Even weaker creatures aren't compelled to help you, they are just temporarily bound here by the spell. You have to negotiate regardless. It's more important to keep the outsiders motives in mind than the numbers. Asking for help from an Azata would have vastly different results than asking for help from a daemon or qlippoth. Perhaps the Azata would like you to recover a lost artifact and is willing to work for a year to trade. Perhaps a qlippoth would work forever if you could feed it ten humans a day.
The spell only gives some basic guidelines for example scenarios for very, VERY simple castings of the spell. The actual possibilities are far more open-ended.
A nonhazardous task requires only half the indicated payment, while an especially hazardous task might require a greater gift. Few if any creatures will accept a task that seems suicidal (remember, a called creature actually dies when it is killed, unlike a summoned creature). However, if the task is strongly aligned with the creature's ethos, it may halve or even waive the payment.
This is very clearly left up to interpretation.
I was not suggesting gate allows you to bind a weak creature beyond their duration. Simply that it allows you to negotiate a deal beyond the duration. That is the true power of the spell. If you want the most effectiveness out of Gate, you better bring some good social skill modifiers.
I am...not sure why you are retaliation so strongly. We seem to be mostly in agreement yet you continue to call me wrong while posting things I have already said. Perhaps it's just a knee jerk reaction from the other threads we have both commented in.
But I digress: The OP has been answered, and I am making it more and more of a point to not entertain frivolous arguments. Good day.
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The Gate spell has a duration, see above.
The instantaneous part is only for the "pull" a creature part. Ir reference planar ally for reasonable reward (and that implies that you reference it for appropriate tasks too).The duration you are referring to is for the teleportation aspect, there is apparently no duration on the calling effect, it says to see lesser planar ally for appropriate rewards, and thus, the tasks linked to them but it appears to be meant as a guideline.
Furthermore, how long does the "control" aspect last? If I have total control over a creature then there should be no need to reward them for their service right?
According to your logic gate is a very minor improvement on planar ally except it costs 10,000gp right off the bat? for a 9th level spell? To me this makes no sense.
"You can call twice your HD" is a minor improvement upon "8/12/18 HD" for you?
If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service.
Longer than what? The only time limit is the "(up to 1 round/level)" part in the duration.
The other informations are in lesser planar ally:
A task taking up to 1 minute per caster level requires a payment of 100 gp per HD of the creature called. For a task taking up to 1 hour per caster level, the creature requires a payment of 500 gp per HD. A long-term task, one requiring up to 1 day per caster level, requires a payment of 1,000 gp per HD.A nonhazardous task requires only half the indicated payment, while an especially hazardous task might require a greater gift. Few if any creatures will accept a task that seems suicidal (remember, a called creature actually dies when it is killed, unlike a summoned creature). However, if the task is strongly aligned with the creature's ethos, it may halve or even waive the payment.
At the end of its task, or when the duration bargained for expires, the creature returns to its home plane (after reporting back to you, if appropriate and possible).
There is a relevant comment about the gate spell in the Ultimate magic book:
Designing Spells
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Gate: This powerful spell combines all of the planar ally/planar binding effects and can be used to transport many creatures between planes.
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Calling: A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can't be dispelled.
The called creature get a a return ticket when it is called by the spell.
"You can call twice your HD" is a minor improvement upon "8/12/18 HD" for you?
If it means I will have no control over his decisions and actions once he is on my plane and it costs 10,000gp to have him say no to me, then yes it is a minor improvement. I would much rather have an 18 HD creature be "forced" to do what I want than pay 10,000 gp to have a 25 HD creature tell me to go F myself, especially for a lv.9 spell
Longer than what? The only time limit is the "(up to 1 round/level)" part in the duration.
I agree with your question, longer than what indeed, because the only other time limit the spell talks about is concentration up to 1 round/level which is referenced as being part of the "plane shift" aspect of the spell, not the calling part. This is another poorly worded part of the spell.
Calling: A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can't be dispelled.The called creature get a a return ticket when it is called by the spell.
Fair play on that one, I had not seen that part of the conjuration description, nice catch.
If you attempt to bind a 25 HD creature, it is fully within the powers of the GM to tell you "No, he refuses service". It is purposely done like this so that game balance can be maintained. If you could forcibly bind epic-leveled outsiders to do your dirty work, IMHO it would harshly unbalance the game.
The spell is subject to GM discretion. GM discretion is sometimes bad. That is part of the game and you will have to deal with it.