Players keep dying. Am I doing something wrong?

[TheGreatXandini]

So in the last 3 scenarios I have been witness to 10 player deaths. I am playing in the 3-7 bracket. In the last scenario we didn't make it past the second encounter. I am playing a Daze Cleric of Horus, the other party members are almost always pregens now because we can't keep people alive and it is nice to occasionally play something other than confirmation. In the last encounter we started checking for traps and magic every 5 feet and still got destroyed by a construct, granted it had dr 5 and fast healing. I am left wondering are we doing something wrong? This is the first time I have been able to get a character past level 4 without dying and I would like to keep him going. Any advice?

[Devin O' the Dale]

Try to flee, prep a plan before battle, stop using pre ten. Maybe the dm has just set a more lethal tone.?. Are they a new dm? Vindictive?

Honestly I have never minded character death. One of the best parts of this game is making a character so that is always my reward for a char death

[Dhjika]

TheGreatXandini wrote:

So in the last 3 scenarios I have been witness to 10 player deaths. I am playing in the 3-7 bracket. In the last scenario we didn't make it past the second encounter. I am playing a Daze Cleric of Horus, the other party members are almost always pregens now because we can't keep people alive and it is nice to occasionally play something other than confirmation. In the last encounter we started checking for traps and magic every 5 feet and still got destroyed by a construct, granted it had dr 5 and fast healing. I am left wondering are we doing something wrong? This is the first time I have been able to get a character past level 4 without dying and I would like to keep him going. Any advice?

Not yet enough information to diagnose - my first thought was 'are they playing in a minefield?' so it is player character deaths I am assuming.

I have found that many people who play pregen characters don't care as much about their character's fate and can be reckless - and that parties with a lot of pregens can doom regular characters with their actions.

Are you playing a lot of year 4+ with tables of 5 people? With the expectation of 6 players for games in year 4+, and a 4-person adjustment, the 5 person table is often at a disadvantage. Have your GMs run some year 0 or year 1 games, and see if your parties do better.

Does the party work together - provide flank, assist others? or when a person can't do their thing, do they skip their turn ("I am out of spells, I'll just delay")

I am not sure what a Daze Cleric is, or to what you are applying Daze - how much are you helping your party members?

Has someone told your people that CON is an OK dump stat? Or that few characters need more than a CON of 10? I have seen that before, where people were recommending wizards and back line people rarely need more than a CON of 10 - ignore them. By the 3-7 level there is rarely a back line, as effects can affect the back from the front.

DR 5 and fast healing (unless it is a lot of fast healing) shouldn't take out a party, unless no one has a damage bonus to the weapons. It might be the character mix. It might be the ray of frost syndrom (I'll shoot it with a ray of frost, at -8 (no precise shot, cover) instead of assisting to hit or AC.

PM me if you want other thoughts, or can provide more detail.

[Jessex]

First pregens are bad. The 4th level pregens are really bad. A party of almost all pregens and some weird clerid of a sort no one has ever heard of is a recipe for TPK.

Play some 1 to 5's with real level 1's and your level 3+, you might want to start going slow track so they can catch up to you as well. Yes, you'll get out of tier rewards but your friend's characters will almost definitely survive and gain xp. Play the 3 to 7 scenarios once they have real characters of the right level.

DR 5 should be no problem at 3rd level and above for at least some of the party. That is why real characters are so important, different ones will have ways of overcoming or bypassing DR or finding traps or fighting swarms or what ever challenges you might face based on what their player has seen and can come up with. The pregens are stuck with what is on their sheet.

[Nefreet]

Usually after one player death there's an investigation.

[FLite]

We need more information to be sure. But you should not be seeing one character death a game.

That said, there are other options besides people playing pregens or the confirmation. There are a lot of really cool 1-5 scenarios.

I assume Daze cleric = cleric with variant channel to daze? That is a very nice build, *IF* you have heavy hitters in the party. Otherwise it is just slow death as you run out of channels.

[BigNorseWolf]

You're dm is doing something wrong. even four valeroses shouldn't be dying THAT often. A stun cleric can almost solo most encounters.

[Muser]

Sometimes deaths happen - and it keeps happening! I was so glad Trouble in Tamran was easy: My last 5 or so tables all had had a character death or several. The two Voice in the Voids, Six Seconds to Midnight, etc. Surprisingly enough no one died in Silver Mount, but it was close.

[Kerney]

It might be useful to see a couple of your characters to see if there are any structural problems i.e. things like not enough high enough Constitution or damage dealt. If not it might be a GM problem.

[Gwen Smith]

That many deaths makes me think there's a structural problem. I see a lot of sub-optimal characters and terribly unbalanced parties, and I don't see anywhere near half as many deaths as you cite here.

First, I'd double check that the GMs are running in the correct tier. Most player deaths I've seen are a result of playing up when you shouldn't be. Make sure you're calculating the APL correctly, and remember that you no longer have the option of playing up. Your group needs to be in the right tier, and you need to check the 4-player adjustment.

Second, I'd make sure the GM is following any stated tactics in the scenario. There are many cases where the writers use tactics to rein in the danger or deadliness of an enemy. If GMs ignore these tactics, the characters actually end up facing a much more deadly enemy than the scenario intended. Also, if the GM is regularly hitting characters when they are down, I'd reconsider that tactic unless the scenario indicates that this is the NPC's intent.

Third, I'd make sure everyone actually understands how to play their characters. Especially if you're playing pregens a lot, try to get together early and spend some time reviewing the stat blocks to make sure each player knows how the character works. It's also a good idea to go over strategies as a group, e.g., figure out who can provide flank, who needs a charge lane, who can provide support, who can provide healing, etc.

Fourth, I'd review the rules for hit points below zero, stabilization, etc. Remember that characters don't die until they take enough damage to be at negative Constitution score (NOT Constitution modifier). Characters lose 1 point of damage per round when they are below 0 hp until they stabilize, which usually gives them enough time to get some healing. Remember that it only takes a DC 15 heal check to stabilize a dying character, that you can make that check untrained, and that you can take 10 when combat it over.

[nosig]

Need more info.

Are you playing PFS? Or a home game?

What scenario did you last play?

Can you spoiler post details of the last death? What happened?

[EricMcG]

I don't know how many games you've played, but you have run between 10 and 29, so you should have a pretty good idea of how a typical PFS scenario goes. Assuming you ran the same players, how many characters did you kill?

Four things generally kill characters, bad luck (crit confirm with low HP), bad play (being the only target for multiple attacks), bad build (Con as a dump stat and/or AC less than 15), bad GM (cheats or uses wrong tier stats). The first three are fairly obvious to spot before or during play, the last is a bit trickier. I would suggest verifying the stat block after the encounter that killed a character. Even if you didn't knowledge the creature, you should have a good idea about its AC, HP and special abilities so you will know it was the right tier.

All To Hit die rolls and damage should be in the open for all to see, saves as well.

I would suggest you stop playing 3-7 scenarios and play 1-5 instead. The rewards are more or less the same and it takes accidental tier 6-7 encounters out of the equation. Also, level 1 characters are very squishy, as a Cleric your job is to keep them alive so you will not need to intervene in a CR1 encounter and thus won't ruin the session by killing everything for them.

BTW locally we have about 20 players playing weekly at various locations and we've had less than 10 character deaths this year.

[Sebastian Hirsch]

At this point we really need more information. That said, your experience really is unusual.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

Having once played with a DM that at one point was using the 'higher' tier for even the evergreens, it's easy to envision things getting really out of hand at higher level scenarios, especially if your party is missing key roles and/or some players aren't pulling their weight/ducking out of combat and delaying every round for no reason.

Also, are you playing modules for some of this? Modules typically tend to stretch player capabilities to their limit, by design. A listing of the sessions might be handy, if you're willing to divulge that?

[Thod]

10 death in 3 scenarios is well above what is sustainable. My own list of what causes char death:

1) season 4+ scenarios (not all !!)
2) playing with 4-5 players at the table
3) unbalanced party lacking key roles - no fighter (or equivalent), no cleric (or equivalent)
4) groups not working together
5) equipment lacking
6) the GM
7) character builds aka optimisation

Here are my suggestions:

1) play some old season scenarios. There are some really great ones out there which allow characters to build up high enough to reach 16 prestige to survive
2) try to ensure you are on a table with 6 players if you do a tough scenario
3) if you play with the same players ensure you build up characters with synergy and have two hitters and two fighters in the group (of 6 - two means there is back-up if one gets disabled)
4) PFS forces you to collaborate or have a higher death toll so hopefully players realize it by now
5) a wand of cure minor wounds is 750 gp or two prestige. Yes - I have seen groups at the table not having any at all. Scenarios assume you invest in consumables AND use them. No good hoarding gold
6) some GMs are more deadly, some dislike killing characters. As a GM I never change written monsters or dice rolls. But this still gives me a lot of leeway if I kill a group. Do I focus on the healer (or squishy wizard) first or do I spread attacks. Do I kill when someone goes down or move on and allow that chat to be healed. Do ispread multiple attacks. I'm not even talking mistakes which happen - even with someone experienced. I'm assuming here that it wasn't the GM trying to deliberately kill characters.
7) I'm not a fan of min-maxed characters - but sometimes it helps to have one at the table if it otherwise seems too deadly

To me PFS is about having a good time and enjoying the game. My own enjoyment is highest when I have a challenge but nobody dies at the table. This will be different for different players - but as you can see from above - there are many ways to increase or decrease the challenge of PFS.
There is no magic formula how many death perx games is best. No death ever is bad for the game. So is too many. Paizo tries to balance it - but this is a campaign. They can't get it right for everyone and in the case it is up to players and GM to do the fine tuning.

Have a chat with the GM. Have a chat with the other players. Which of the above was responsible for these many dead characters. What can be done to change it.

[pauljathome]

While I agree with everybody above, it is at least possible that some of this is pure chance. With hundreds if not thousands of games being played weekly worldwide SOMEBODY has to just experience a bad run of luck. And anybody who experienced such a run of luck is a LOT more likely to post.

Almost certainly sheer bad luck isn't the whole answer but it may certainly be a strongly contributing factor.

[andreww]

Jessex wrote:

First pregens are bad. The 4th level pregens are really bad. A party of almost all pregens and some weird clerid of a sort no one has ever heard of is a recipe for TPK.

You might not have heard of it but that is hardly determinative. Daze Clerics are one of the most potent cleric versions in the game, especially in PFS when you can be pretty guaranteed to have a fairly small number of combat rounds.

Daze Clerics are those using the Rulershhip variant channelling to mass daze enemies around you. It is incredibly potent tactic if you max out your charisma.

[Azothath]

TheGreatXandini wrote:

So in the last 3 scenarios I have been witness to 10 player deaths. I am playing in the 3-7 bracket...

I'll give you that's a high mortality rate on average. Good thing you are using PreGens.

Some scenarios are deadlier than others. Check what you played versus the online reviews... do the reviews say they are difficult?

Play with 4 or 6 players, NOT 5. 5 is right out.
ALWAYS have a healer.
ALWAYS have a fighter type.
Before you start ask the GM if he can tell you about where you are going. If it sounds like your group can't handle it ask for a different scenario/mission. Pathfinder VCs don't send other PFs on suicide missions... that's just unproductive and wasteful. (okay - stop laughing some of you)

Play a not-so-deadly scenario like First Steps, (starting at season 4) 4-01, 4-11, 4-19, (5-08), 5-11, 6-10, 6-15, 7-05...

[BretI]

First Steps In Service to Lore Part 1 can be deadly if the GM isn't following the tactics correctly.

[Azothath]

Stephen Ross wrote:

some stuff...

lol... okay...

Classic Core group: Kyra, Seoni, Amiri, Valeros, add Lini, Lem.
Classic mixed group: Kyra, Enora, Amiri, Reiko, add Lirianne, Oloch.
Ranged group: Kyra, Enora, Lirianne, Lirianne, Lirianne, Lirianne. lol... just ready at 30ft...
Kick-butt group: Kyra, Hakon, Oloch, Reiko, add Crowe, Oloch.

[TheGreatXandini]

OK a lot of responses to respond to, Thanks for all the advice here. I will try to consolidate the main issues I am hearing. And yes this is PFS.
1) My build- level 4 separatist cleric of horus (animal and travel domains)/1 life oracle with alternative channel daze.
Defensive stats: ac 27, 15 con and 5-8 on all saves.
Offensive stats: DC 19-20 daze 14x/day
Intelligent Ape pet with +7 to hit and 2d6+4 damage on his bow and feats for it. Grabbed durable adamantine arrows for him to deal with constructs (about the only thing I can't seem to daze)

2)Party Comp: Why pregens, because everyone else has died. As such we have been playing Rogues, Hunters, mages and swashbucklers a lot. Recently we only have had enough players show up that we have 2 newbies, me and a npc pregen. The community really dwindled after a first set of TPKs a few months ago. This more recent set of near TPKs has all but destroyed our group. I guess People just aren't interested in investing time into characters when they are going to get murdered.

3) Tactics: Yes we have been very careful as I cited in the first post. Searching every 5 feet and flanking and whatnot. I have been pretty much trying to tank for the party when not able to daze stun and have been very unsuccessful at maintaining the enemy's attention. Things like attacking defensively have been shown to really just waste a turn since you are unlikely to hit and won't get attacked. We have been consistently flanking where possible. Part of the issue is enemies just ganking us hard. Seems like every mindless zombie somehow has amazing hide check.

4) Maybe bad luck? I'm not sure I would call it luck anymore. The first few coup de graces in I would have said maybe but at this point any form of control on behalf of the enemy is pretty much a party killer.In one instance a 3 round stun killed half the party due to coups. The rest left trying to run for their lives. At any rate bad luck has played it's part I'm sure but it surely isn't only that.

5) GM: My GM is a self professed good guy GM and he has actually fudged a number of rolls openly in favor of our party. I'm not sure what the scenarios are calling for but he seems to let on that he is trying to be lenient. Though I do wonder at times about the idea that all intelligent creatures coup de grace during battle.

6) Specific issues: Constructs in general have just seemed really mean to our party. I know I am not good vs them so I have taken retraining to get a pet that can hit them with adamantine arrows. I would have never expected them to be such a HUGE issue but since we discovered that they are immune to channel energy they seem to be in EVERY scenario. Since my to hit is below abysmal, I try to just but a target and tank but as stated before they seem to just ignore anything that isn't hitting them. So I feel like there is little else I can do but flank and aid another. Usually flanking is better but sometimes that ac can help. Most of the party has ac in the 20-22 range and that doesn't seem to cut it vs these guys who regularly have hit in the 24-27 range and they seem to always hit for 12-20 damage. This last one took us 7 rounds of battle before we were even close to bringing it down. By that time 3 of our 4 party members were downed or dead. Last scenario played was storming the diamond gate, preceded by among the gods and silver mount collection.
Our original wipe was in mists of mwangi. So far I have lost 3 characters in the past year and currently have the highest level character anyone in our group has attained.

So i guess that is all the information you would need. I will be back on tomorrow for responses. :) Thanks for all the input. You guys are great.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

BretI wrote:

First Steps In Service to Lore Part 1 can be deadly if the GM isn't following the tactics correctly.

It can be deadly even if the GM IS following tactics correctly.

[pauljathome]

Its hard to be sure but the GM sounds very, very suspect to me. At the very least he is clearly having the bad guys act in a super effective way (coup de grace should NOT be default behaviour, which is really uncalled for. And with those stats you should be damn near soloing most in tier scenarios.

I think that you really need to read the scenarios after play and make sure the GM was running it correctly.

As an aside, animal companions can't use weapons. Its specifically outlawed in PFS.

[QuidEst]

A lot of stun effects don't allow for CDG. (Daze, for instance, does not.) Double-check whether or not the characters are actually "helpless", or if they're simply unable to act.

[FLite]

Animal companions, even ones with INT 3+ are not sentient and cannot use weapons in PFS

Okay, on to everything else.

Yeah, you shouldn't be seeing TPKs, plural. I am trying to remember a low level scenario that has a stun whole party for 3 rounds, and I cannot remember any.

Can you please post the scenarios? And if you can remember what killed you (in spoilers obviously.)

Zombies should not be getting surprise rounds on you.

From what you posted it seems like your GM needs to review the rules.

[Finlanderboy]

From what I understand your life oracle channels would not daze.

Oracles channel positive energy. So you would either heal normal or possibly apply the heal bonus on those channels.

[Kyrie Ebonblade,]

Seems to me that you're doing good. Clerics are a solid support role, you're stocking up on options for the things you can't effect on your own.

A few things that you could do (or done)
-Plan out tactics (you seem to have that solid)
-Explored the foes you are weak on (Did that apparently)
-That many CDGs. Yeah.. your 'good guy' GM isn't. The number of scenarios that specifically cite that tactic is not that many.
-Pregen central. There are an astonishing number of pregens now. I'm curious to see what your guys are bringing to the table. I know when we have a 4/7th valorous the first thing most players do is get a large steel sheild (or one of our regulars 'loans' Val one). The paladin is astonishingly good in some scenarios, the war priest and a few of the other ACG iconics do well. Pick out a good selection, paying attention to their gear, and your guys can carry their weight easily enough.

Suggestions:
-IF you have the books, invest in blanches over arrows. You can get durable cold iron arrows, blanch 20 with Silver Blanch, 20 with Adamantine and 10 with Ghost Salt and you're good for days.
-The Alchemy Manual is an AMAZING book of toys. Ultimate Equipment even more so.
-You got the 'support guy' vibe going with what you've said so far. Look for things you can get to help out others. Fun note: alchemical weapons have 'side effects' that might be of help with some foes. (Tanglefoot bag is a good example, and a touch attack isn't that hard for a cleric compared to normal AC most time. Entangle is a good knockdown on the bad guy)
-Aid another. While you're not 'all that' in combat you can possibly aid another. (A +2 to AC/Attack might not seem like much but it might help out in the right situation, and if you've oh.. just entangled a bad guy with a tanglefoot bag, it is even more effective.)

I'd suggest more but to be honest you've seem to have a handle on the basics (and some of the advanced) options of a support cleric. Don't be afraid to step up and hit guys though. I know my cleric was able to solo tank 3 chaos based critters on her own. (Righteous Might, Bull's Strength, Angel Soul and Remove Sickeness. A few of the spells were hers..otehrs were from other players. She went from being a 12/12/12 book to a pretty nasty front liner with smite like abilities. Fighting defensively while casting a few spells or being buffed by allies, kept the party alive to the tank could be un-rabbitted.

I would suggest you discuss specifics (with the items spoiled for those who haven't played the scenarios) so we can get a better idea of what happened.

[Deighton Thrane]

Here's a post from Mark Moreland (who was in charge of PFS at the time) telling GMs that, unless it's a written tactic in the scenario, that monsters should not be using the coup de grace action. You might want to show your GM, seeing how this very issue seems to be affecting your games.

Also want to point out that you need to be helpless to be coup de graced, so pretty much paralyzed, or unconscious (asleep or below 0 HP). Pinned, stunned, dazed, and such don't count. You may have already known this, as there's a number of scenarios that have sleep or paralysis at that level, but even still, that seems like a lot of CDGs.

[kinevon]

Somehow, I am just having problems wrapping my mind around a TPK in Mists of Mwangi.

Mists of Mwangi:

All I can think of, really, would be a party of 1s & 2s being run through the 4-5 sub-tier, so there are two gorillas in the office encounter, and even that would be difficult to do.

Mists? Well, the ones most affected by it negatively are also the ones with the best chance of saving against it...
Undead encounter: if your party has a positive channeler, pretty much a speed bump. Even without, not that much of a threat.
Office: +3 to hit in all tiers? Maybe during the surprise round. Maybe.
Varguoilles? If a significant portion of the party fail their saves, but one attack frees the target.
Bathroom? Using the croc in low tier is a bad idea. Otherwise, not much there.
Main Room? Using high tier Da'Tunga against a low tier party would be bad. The Tik Taan are a joke.

A couple of things to bear in mind:
Tiny or smaller opponents have to enter your square to attack (unless using a reach weapon), and doing so provokes an AoO from the person whose square they are entering.
CdG by monsters is generally not encouraged, unless it is explicitly written into their tactics, or player tactics force such tactics (the fighter just keeps standing back up!, and, even then, the healer is the more likely next target)
Zombies are unintelligent undead, and, unless their instructions, and therefore tactics, include hiding, they usually won't hide. Any flanking from them is usually accidental, or planned by their controller in stationing them.

There are some earlier season scenarios that I, at least, would count as deadlier then the norm, due to opponents being underrated and/or given nastier than normal tactics. Many 1-7s, especially in 1-2, are harder than they should be. Things like a 3rd level cleric channeling negative to harm living as her preferred tactic in the 1-2 sub-tier of a 1-7. A 4th level Magus starting an encounter from invisibility, with spellstrike on a spell on a rapier attack in sub-tier 1-2.

[Muser]

DA'TUNGA!!!

...I'm sorry.

Seen a tpk in Mists: 2 sorcerers, a ninja and a cleric, all but one gnomes, were dead in room 2 or 3. Haven't seen too many gnomes after that.

[waltero]

I would make sure the GM is adjusting for having 4 players and is using the right Tier.

You can also request for scenarios without constructs to be run.

Have you or other group members considered running a game? It may give you some insight into what may be happening.

[Sebastian Hirsch]

Yeah a list of scenarios would be nice.

Oh and animal companions can't use weapons in PFS.

PFS FAQ wrote:

Can my animal companion or familiar wear or use magic items?

It is intended that animal companions or familiars can not activate magic items. An animal companion could benefit from an item with a continuous magical effect like an amulet of natural armor if its master equipped the item for the animal companion. Animal companions of any type may not use manufactured weapons.

Animal companions are also limited by their individual anatomies. In Pathfinder Society Organized Play, animal companions always have access to barding and neck-slot items so long as they have the anatomy. For example, a horse and pig can always have access to barding and neck-slot items. A snake does not have access to either. However, an item called out to be used by a specific animal is usable by that animal regardless of slot.

Additionally, animal companions have access to magical item slots, in addition to barding and neck, as listed on the inside front cover of the Animal Archive so long as they select the Extra Item Slot feat. The Animal Magic Item Slots table found in Animal Archive is not a legal except under the following conditions. First, an animal companion, familiar, or bonded mount, may choose one slot listed under its body type when taking the Extra Item Slot feat (this feat may be taken multiple times, each time selecting a different available magic item slot based on the creature’s anatomy). Second, access to specific magic item slots may be granted at a later date by another legal source. If you do not own a copy of the Animal Archive, your animal companion may only use barding and neck-slot items.

An animal or familiar has to have an intelligence of 3+ to activate an ioun stone. If the animal or familiar has less than a 3 intelligence, they may not activate an ioun stone.

The brownie, faerie dragon, imp, lyrakien azata, mephit, quasit, sprite familiars, granted by the Improved Familiar feat, use the Biped (hands) section of the chart. The carbuncle and voidworm protean, familiars granted by the Improved Familiar feat, uses the Serpentine section of the chart. If you do not own a copy of the Animal Archive, your animal companion may only use barding and neck-slot items.

Not wishing to cause offense, but your build seems a bit desprerate (as you describe it) I can't immagine, that your previous scenarios left a good impression.

However, the fact, that you seem to face constructs all the time seems to be a bit unusual.

[Auke Teeninga]

TheGreatXandini wrote:

Offensive stats: DC 19-20 daze 14x/day

That's a lot. How do you get that many? Focussing too much on one thing might turn you into a one trick pony and leave you vulnerable to things immune to your trick.

TheGreatXandini wrote:

Intelligent Ape pet with +7 to hit and 2d6+4 damage on his bow and feats for it. Grabbed durable adamantine arrows for him to deal with constructs (about the only thing I can't seem to daze)

As said by others, apes with bows are not PFS legal.

TheGreatXandini wrote:

storming the diamond gate, preceded by among the gods and silver mount collection.

Those scenarios can be quite tough.

[andreww]

Auke Teeninga wrote:

TheGreatXandini wrote:

Offensive stats: DC 19-20 daze 14x/day

That's a lot. How do you get that many? Focussing too much on one thing might turn you into a one trick pony and leave you vulnerable to things immune to your trick.

He is Life Oracle 1/Cleric x so has two separate channel pools.

[Muser]

Not that they stack though. The other pool's just 1+cha of 1d6 channels.

[Malag]

There is two sides in every story, especially here on internet. If what you say is true, your GM needs to review his ideas and approach. Dead players do not grant a good game.

I suggest pulling your GM into this topic as soon as you can.

[Ferious Thune]

The Coup de Graces are likely the issue. I don't remember tactics from any of the scenarios you mentioned calling out CDG for use, so using one is the GMs call. As others have pointed out, it was strongly encouraged by campaign leadership that a CDG only be used when the tactics specify it. Especially in a situation where your group had had multiple deaths over several sessions, the GM should let up a little and stop employing that tactic.

Mists of Mwangi:

Ive never understood why people like this scenario for a beginning group. It's a fine scenario for more experienced players, but for beginners, it can be tough. It starts with the first encounter inducing PvP, and at the least, Da'tunga has a shot at one shot killing a 1st level character. And there are creatures who are given Death Knell (rather than employ that one on the party, I like to have them try using it on Da'tunga when he goes down, with plans to animate him after. It never works, but it's fun to try, and it wastes a round for the enemy while the PCs are trying to find them).

As far as CDG in the scenario, if the ghast paralyzes someone, the GM should not go directly to a CDG. If the ghast paralyzed 3/4 characters, and the 4th character ran away, then I can understand the CDG better. Still, it seems like the GM could let up a little in that particular situation. Instead of a CDG, have th ghast go strait for trying to eat someone. It might kill one character, if the ghast rolls high on bite damage, but the others should have time to recover.

Silver Mount Collection:

This is one of the more difficult scenarios I can remember. Avoid the technology scenarios until the group has recovered a little. Hardness and immunities can be tough on any party. Especially one primarily made of pregens. And the BBEG in that scenario is ridiculously tough to kill without the right party mix.

I'd suggest as someone did above that the group play lower level scenarios for a while. You can slow track, and having the higher level character with the group will help people catch up.

[Calenor]

Think this is a mix of wrong scenarios for the wrong chars.

Seems like the party misses some heavy hitters, and stumbled into scenarios that are not that forgiving.

Think the GM should have been more sensitive in his choice of scenarios, after noticing that Mindless-DR-Creatures are e problem for his players.
Serving 3 Scenarios in a row, each sporting some DR/Mindless 'problem' mobs sounds not that wise.

Think in my year as player/GM for PFS i've seen 15-25 chars down, and 2-3 chars killed. But its quite helpful that we have some solid char builds in our Lodge.

From my POV, try to restart with your group, try to get the Roles filled properly (Like 2 Handed fighter, breaking the DR by Damage/Social/Knowledge Chars to avoid/prep for Encounters) and check with your GM, if he can scan the scenarios for that kind of problems.

[Divvox2]

Some things I noticed...
1) I think this is just something I don't know regarding a daze cleric build, but Daze is a cantrip that tops out at 4HD and only works against humanoid targets. I suspect there are special tricks in play here though, so I could be wrong.
2) Animal companions can't use weapons. :(
3) Did your cleric take the feat boon companion? Otherwise the Animal domain gives you a pet at level 4 and starts leveling it from there (-3 levels from your own). I mention this because your bow damage indicates a large size companion, and your companion would only be level 2, and thus medium size, without you having the boon companion feat.

PRD wrote:

Animal Companion (Ex): At 4th level, you gain the service of an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this animal companion is equal to your cleric level – 3. (Druids who take this ability through their nature bond class feature use their druid level – 3 to determine the abilities of their animal companions).

That said, I suspect your GM isn't running the scenarios correctly:

4) Unless the scenario SPECIFICALLY states it uses Coup De Grace tactics, they aren't supposed to use them. For example, Ghouls and Ghasts deviate from their racial tactics and follow those stated in the scenario. This balances the encounters to the scenario and the party encountering them.
5) I suspect your GM is going off the rails of the scenario. Not using 4 person adjustments, not using the lower tier content, not taking into account 4 player adjustments, etc...
6)Mindless Zombies don't really get hide checks unless the scenario specifically states they blend in for some reason.. they're mindless so they just stand there and moan/walk towards you and attack. Is he taking into account the fact that all (normal) zombies are staggered?
7) Your GM might be fudging some rolls, but his tactics clearly indicate he isn't following the scenario. There might be a couple where the things you've mentioned come into play, but it sure isn't the standard. It sounds like he's running encounters as he would think they should go, rather than how they are supposed to go. Nobody is supposed to be Coup De Grace-ing.
8) Constructs aren't in every scenario, I'd say maybe 1 in 5, but you named a few they do exist in... The more you described your experience, the more I'm wondering if your GM needs to refresh their knowledge of the ruleset and how PFS play is supposed to work. It also sounds like they miiiiight have some carryover from 3.5 rulesets, but I am guessing with that. Not sure how you wiped in Mists except that it was being run incorrectly. Poor rolling aside, it's not hard. Silver Mount Collection wouldn't surprise me though, that first fight is a freaking doozey, particularly if you're playing up. I highly suggest that all characters should have an adamantine weapon by level 5 though, DR starts becoming a thing... but you still shouldn't be having this much of a problem, even without them.

All together, it really sounds like your GM isn't running the scenarios correctly. In PFS, or arguably anywhere, it isn't the GM's job to make things challenging, it's their job to tell the story and enjoy it with the players. It's particularly true in PFS. Deviating from the scenarios can easily lead to what you've described here.

[andreww]

Divvox2 wrote:

1) I think this is just something I don't know regarding a daze cleric build, but Daze is a cantrip that tops out at 4HD and only works against humanoid targets. I suspect there are special tricks in play here though, so I could be wrong.

You are wrong. The alternate channelling for Rulership Domain clerics applies the Dazed condition, it is not the Daze spell.

Quote:

That said, I suspect your GM isn't running the scenarios correctly:

4) Unless the scenario SPECIFICALLY states it uses Coup De Grace tactics, they aren't supposed to use them.

This also is not true. It was cleared up by Mike Brock in the last long coup thread. You can use coup where it is called out in the tactics or where it makes sense within the context of the game for an enemy to do so.

[andreww]

Muser wrote:

Not that they stack though. The other pool's just 1+cha of 1d6 channels.

True, although the damage/healing is irrelevant, the issue is applying the dazed condition effectively rendering your opposition ineffective. I am less than clear that you could apply the variant gained from Cleric levels to channels gained from Oracle ones though.

[Silbeg]

I'll have to agree with all of the above. Coup de Grace should not be something you regularly see. Mindless undead and constructs are also something you should not see EVERY WEEK. It sounds like your coordinator/GM has been picking scenarios to "challenge" you... i.e., take away your toys.

Additionally, I would agree that your group should just "start over". Start with some low level adventures, and build up a new set of characters. Check to see if you've got all the bases covered for specializations, especially if you've got a standing group. Have a melee beat-stick (fighter/barbarian/slayer/brawler/etc), some ranged combat (archery or spellcasting), some healing, some trapfinding/disabling, etc. You shouldn't have to over-optimize, but make sure that your only method to find traps isn't to send in the barbarian and hope.

Make sure people are taking knowledge skills - knowing the weakness of an opponent means you can often make a very tough encounter less so. Rest if you need to.

But, above all, have fun. Talk to your GM (and/or GM yourself) -- explain what you think the problem is. Don't get confrontational, just talk like adults... civilly. A lot of this can be fixed with a simple conversation.

[Sebastian Hirsch]

I somehow missed this point before so

Mists of Mwangi:

This might be the source of the hiding zombies. IIRC (and it has been some time) in one room, the undead bodies are only just animated when the players actually enter the room. Until that point, they are just dead bodies.

And I would not be surprised to learn that the mask encounter lead to the TPK, last time I ran this, my players were actually scared by the encounter. Run properly it should not kill a group.

Silver Mount Collection:

I think this was my 5th PFS scenarios (as a player). Having played Kyra in that one, your choice of pregen is pretty critical.
This seems entirely the wrong choice after so many TPKs, especially since some pregens will have serious trouble trying to deal with the hardness.

@TheGreatXandini: This isn't an accusation, but could it be that the GM chose those scenarios to to provide a challenge to the group? I haven't researched the daze cleric properly, but with that variant channel, groups can turn some scenarios into a cakewalk.

Oh and as others have mentioned there seem to be some issues with with oracle of life channeling.

[Divvox2]

andreww wrote:

Divvox2 wrote:

1) I think this is just something I don't know regarding a daze cleric build, but Daze is a cantrip that tops out at 4HD and only works against humanoid targets. I suspect there are special tricks in play here though, so I could be wrong.

You are wrong. The alternate channelling for Rulership Domain clerics applies the Dazed condition, it is not the Daze spell.

Makes sense. Like I said, I'm not familiar with the build, so I'm not surprised.

Quote:

Quote:

That said, I suspect your GM isn't running the scenarios correctly:

4) Unless the scenario SPECIFICALLY states it uses Coup De Grace tactics, they aren't supposed to use them.

This also is not true. It was cleared up by Mike Brock in the last long coup thread. You can use coup where it is called out in the tactics or where it makes sense within the context of the game for an enemy to do so.

I did not know the context part was a thing as well, but that makes sense. Still, context in my mind would be more along the lines of, "everyone else ran away leaving the ghoul with a paralyzed player", or similar situations. Not when the enemy has other viable targets to execute their tactics against. The scenario described above struck me more as the opponents were methodically going through the party one at a time, which is typically against tactics as intended.

[Muser]

andreww wrote:

Muser wrote:

Not that they stack though. The other pool's just 1+cha of 1d6 channels.

True, although the damage/healing is irrelevant, the issue is applying the dazed condition effectively rendering your opposition ineffective. I am less than clear that you could apply the variant gained from Cleric levels to channels gained from Oracle ones though.

That's just it though. Channels don't stack.

[andreww]

Muser wrote:

andreww wrote:

Muser wrote:

Not that they stack though. The other pool's just 1+cha of 1d6 channels.

True, although the damage/healing is irrelevant, the issue is applying the dazed condition effectively rendering your opposition ineffective. I am less than clear that you could apply the variant gained from Cleric levels to channels gained from Oracle ones though.

That's just it though. Channels don't stack.

No-one is suggesting that they do.

The Variant Channel for rulership says:

Quote:

Rulership: Heal—Creatures gain a channel bonus on Diplomacy checks and to the DC of their language-dependent and charm effects until the end of your next turn. Harm—Creatures are dazed for 1 round.

The question is, when you use an Oracle channel does the variant ability apply?

Reading through the text on Variant Channelling I would probably say not.

[GM Lamplighter]

No, it doesn't. Your oracle channels use the oracle abilities you have, and don't add cleric domain stuff (and vice versa).

But that's besides the point - your GM needs to stop CdG'ing your party. Sometimes it makes sense for the enemies to do this, but doing it 10 times in a row is not conducive to a campaign.

[Andrew Christian]

Yeah. GM needs to tone down the killer tactics.

[The Morphling]

GM Lamplighter wrote:

No, it doesn't. Your oracle channels use the oracle abilities you have, and don't add cleric domain stuff (and vice versa).

Variant channeling does work for Oracles, it's not related to a domain. But that's not directly relevant here.

Ultimate Magic wrote:

For example, paladins can select alternative channeling abilities if they serve a deity, as can oracles with the Life mystery (as they serve many deities), but necromancer wizards cannot.

Yes, CdG should be used sparingly. The only time I have ever used Coup de Grace as a GM is after a paladin was paralyzed and took zero damage (due to high flat-footed AC and bad rolls) from three rounds of full attacks from three ghouls. After which I said "Alright, screw it, one of them rips your throat out. Make a fort save." (And even that was against a pregen Seelah.)

[FLite]

TheGreatXandini wrote:

storming the diamond gate, preceded by among the gods and silver mount collection.

I missed that list.

Wait, didn't you say you guys were having trouble getting past level 3?

What are you doing playing 7-11?

3 lvl 7 pregens + 1 puppet pregen *will* wipe on most 7-11 scenarios.

Let alone 2 of the most lethal tpk scenarios out there. I haven't looked at the new pregens, but I am not sure it is even possible for 4 lvl 7 pregens to get past the first encounter in StDG. Certainly not if you are primarily using martials.