Shillelagh and Greatclubs?


Rules Questions


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Can I use spell "Shillelagh" to increase the damage of greatclub?

Yes, the spell says, that it works on "clubs", not "greatclubs", but the description of greatclub even says about someone calls them "shiellelaghs"...

What do you think?

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Despite having similar letters in their names, Club and Greatclub are mechanically different items, just like Sling and Staff Sling.


Use a large club, and just cast shiellelagh on that.


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A Mite Excessive wrote:
Use a large club, and just cast shiellelagh on that.

Not quite the same thing, as you take a -2 penalty on attack rolls with the large club as it isn't sized properly for a medium wielder. Plus, a large club deals 1d8 damage (3d6 with shillelagh) compared to a greatclubs 1d10 (3d8 with shillelagh, if it worked).

Scarab Sages

Speaking of staff slings, can you cast shillelagh on one? They are treated as clubs and it is a simple weapon when used in melee.


Imbicatus wrote:
Speaking of staff slings, can you cast shillelagh on one? They are treated as clubs and it is a simple weapon when used in melee.

They aren't treated as a club - it just deals damage as a club of the appropriate size. It isn't a club (or quarterstaff), so isn't affected by shillelagh.


But what damage it will be?

Large Club + Enlarge Person + Shillelagh = Colossal Club.
4d6? Or something else?


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Club is to Greatclub as Java is to Javascript.


1d6 > 1d8 > 2d6 > 3d6 > 4d6 (Colossal) > 6d6 > 8d6

Remember, as the size of a weapon increases, its damage approaches that of a fireball.


And damage may be increased BEYOND Colossal?

For example, Giant Form II.

Large club + HUGE Giant Form + Shiellelagh = Mega Colossal Club (6d6)?


I do not think that is true. If it works for your game, obviously do it, but per the rules you cap a club for a 70 ft. tall giant at the same point you do one for a 300 ft. tall giant.


Nefreet wrote:
Despite having similar letters in their names, Club and Greatclub are mechanically different items, just like Sling and Staff Sling.

There are clearly two readings and rulings here:

One group will argue that there are weapons with stats called 'club' and weapons called 'greatclub' and greatclubs obviously are not a kind of club.
However someone else found out, that a longsword is a sword and there is accidentely no stated weapon called 'sword'. So all swords are swords, but not all clubs are clubs...
The problem really is that we don't know, what the author meant with non-magical oak club. The weapon called club specificalley stated in the weapons description part of the CRB, or any sort of wooden club that you can find in the next best forest? (btw. why is slightly larger wooden stick a martial weapon???)

for the damage die, I like to refer to the Improved Natural Attack feat. Btw. Titan Fighter lets you start with a large greatclub to begin with...

Scarab Sages

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Ellioti wrote:


for the damage die, I like to refer to the Improved Natural Attack feat.

That chart has been rendered obsolete by this FAQ.


Imbicatus wrote:
Ellioti wrote:


for the damage die, I like to refer to the Improved Natural Attack feat.
That chart has been rendered obsolete by this FAQ.

Both get the same result, just with different methods for determining the damage (the feat increases 1 step per size increase, the FAQ increases 2 steps).

Dark Archive

Has anyone read the description of a greatclub

This larger, bulkier version of the common club is heavy enough that you can't wield it with one hand. It may be ornate and carved, reinforced with metal, or a simple branch from a tree. Like simple clubs, greatclubs have many names, such as cudgels, bludgeons, shillelaghs, and more.

I like how in the description of greatclub they call it a shillelagh but everyone is still all "nope you cant cast the spell on it"

On another note, greatclub is not a druid weapon in the first place which is also really strange.

I reject these rulings and deem them all mistakes. Greatclubs enchanted with Shillelagh for all druids i say. Druids everywhere rejoice!


Shadowlords wrote:
I like how in the description of greatclub they call it a shillelagh but everyone is still all "nope you cant cast the spell on it"

The reason you can't cast the spell Shillelagh on a greatclub is because it specifically calls out being cast on a club or quarterstaff. It's not a mistake.

In the description of greatclub it calls it a shillelagh because that's an Irish word for stick or club. It's just a different name for cudgel. It doesn't make it eligible for the spell.

Dark Archive

This is one of the parts in the game where rules and mechanics get in the way of logic. I understand the rules and the rulings they impart in this circumstance.

I disagree with them on a the fundamental level that the only difference between a greatclub and a club, and this is from the books own descriptions of the weapons. is that a greatclub is just a larger version of a regular club that must be wielded in 2 hands because of its size.

Like i said. I disagree with the ruling. doesn't mean you have to.

Druids are now proficient in Greatclubs, and Greatclubs qualify for the spell Shillelagh.

Greatclubs enchanted with Shillelagh for all, Druids everywhere rejoice!

one-handed Club 1d6, Shillelagh Enchant 1d10 (with revisions from FAQ)
Quarterstaff, same as above
two-handed (Great) Club 1d10, Shillelagh Enchant 2d8


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Shadowlords wrote:

Druids are now proficient in Greatclubs, and Greatclubs qualify for the spell Shillelagh.

Greatclubs enchanted with Shillelagh for all, Druids everywhere rejoice!

one-handed Club 1d6, Shillelagh Enchant 1d10 (with revisions from FAQ)
Quarterstaff, same as above
two-handed (Great) Club 1d10, Shillelagh Enchant 2d8

This would be better suited in the Homebrew section of the forums and not in a Rules Question thread.


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The spell targets an oak club, but you can't buy an oak club, just a club. So the only thing this spell can work on is the quarter staff.


By extension of the Warslinger FAQ, the spell can't be cast on a greatclub.


Yeah, the RAW seems pretty clear. By the rules, a club and a greatclub are different weapons with no more in common than a greatsword and a great terbutje.

That said, if I was GMing the game I'd allow it.


I'm inclined to say that not allowing somebody to use Shillelagh on a shillelagh seems a little stingy, but I could see a DM deciding that a weapon which does 3d8 base damage might be a little excessive for low level play. Maybe there could be a "Greater Shillelagh" spell which works on greatclubs and magic weapons and or grants a higher bonus like Greater Magic Weapon.

As is, Shillelagh wouldn't be a bad option for TWF at low levels since both attacks would do 2d6+1 before Str bonus. The number of TWF Druids out there probably isn't very high though.


Nevan Oaks wrote:
The spell targets an oak club, but you can't buy an oak club, just a club. So the only thing this spell can work on is the quarter staff.

I'm inclined to agree...

heres my attempt at the logic taken to the illogical extreme ;)
I think the game logic implies you can cast the spell on an oak club, but not an oakclub. Therefore you can cast the spell on a great club, but not a greatclub.

the funny thing is, the difference between greatclub and great club. or oakclub and oak club is actually only from removing the space, and shortening things. so really its slang, so really a greatclub isn't and actual weapon (same with longswords and greatswords), and is instead simply vulgar slang of the word great club. And again as we all know, great is simply an adjective applied to club, just like oak is an adjective added to club.

LOL

Scarab Sages

Seems silly that a greatclub wouldn't be allowed, but club one size too large would. Mechanically, the medium greatclub is a large club without the size penalty...

Though that said, if you do allow clubs to include greatclubs, then can druid use a longspear? I think the intention is likely that only normal clubs qualify, so if you want the greatclub damage, you'll have to take the -2 attack roll for an oversized club.

On a side note, using proper English, the quarterstaff has to be oak too. It doesn't target "an oak club, or a quarterstaff."

And as for getting oak, I've always assumed that the idea was that you could pick normal wood types when you buy the item, but the oak restriction is just there for the GM to have a way to limit the spell if it becomes problematic or if they want to add a plot device. After all, oak is a type of wood.

The tree stride spell, also varies by wood type. Again, I think this is more a GM plot device/balance option. In most situations, having every wooden item you own and every tree you encounter being oak, won't actually create any issues.

Basically, the logic is that the GM can give you a spruce club, should the shillelagh club be more than they intended to give you. Likewise, in a campaign with heavy use of the Tree stride spell, oak trees can serve as portals and would likely be more restricted in placement.

Scarab Sages

Another side note, the quarterstaff, as double weapon, can be used for two-weapon fighting and as a two handed weapon. The club is there for sword and board users (lol, board and board users...).

Dark Archive

Wait so druids can not use a long spear, or a boar spear or a weighted spear, because they are not specifically called out as proficient with them, do they not fall under the spear category?


Shadowlords wrote:
Wait so druids can not use a long spear, or a boar spear or a weighted spear, because they are not specifically called out as proficient with them, do they not fall under the spear category?

There are no weapon categories for proficiency except simple, martial exotic and for determining things related to the Fighter class weapon training (and a few other very niche examples). The is no such thing as being proficient in "spears" as a category. (Though there is a specific example of Tengu's swordtrained, but that is an obvious exception).

When the druid entry says proficient with spear, they don't mean all spear weapons or spear like weapons or weapons with spear in the name. They mean specifically the thing that says spear on the equipment table.

So no, they are no proficient with the long spear, the boar spear, or the weighted spear or any other type of spear unless listed in the proficiency statement for the class (like the shortspear).

In fact, because they list the shortspear and spear separately I would have thought it was obvious that Druids are not proficient in long spears, or more generally all spears.

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