Armorless Paladin


Advice


Hi All,

I have a question on how a couple of different abilities interact.

1) Sidestep Secret (Lore Oracle): Use Charisma mod in place of Dexterity to determine Armor Class

2) Confident Defense (Enlightened Paladin): Add 1 point of Charisma mod to Dexterity bonus to Armor Class per level

3) Arshea's Boon (Deific Obedience): Use Charisma mod as Armor stat for Armor Class when fighting unarmored and in revealing clothing.

Would all three of these abilities be able to interact together for 1 character's Armor Class? Or would only 2 of these abilities interact together?


Here.

In short, you can't use Sidestep Secret and Confident Defense together, but Arshea's Boon stacks with either of them. Smite Evil also stacks with all of them, but does not stack with a Ring of Protection. You also missed out on Osyluth Guile, which stacks with everything.


Also, "Enlightened" Paladin does not exist. The archetype is IRORAN Paladin. Now, if your GM is literal, he will take that to mean it must worship Irori and not Arshea, but there's nothing that forces you to worship Irori though other than the name.


Enlightened is how it appears on the d20PFSRD, for copyright reasons.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

The Iroran Paladin archetype does not restrict you to worshiping Irori.

Think of it like Brazilian jiu-jitsu.

You don't have to be Brazilian, or live in Brazil.


You could think of it like Christian communion though, which requires you to be Christian. Up to the GM in a RAW vs RAI thing.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Where is the listed clause for what happens when you stop worshiping Irori?


Quote:
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features (including the service of the paladin's mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any further in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see atonement), as appropriate.

Imma go with "worshipping another deity" being one of those things a Deity would not really be hot with.

AGAIN, this is all assuming that the GM takes that, by RAI, the Iroran Paladin is meant to worship Irori, which is not a terribly far-fetched assumption.


Depending on the deity, it wouldn't be too hard to imagine allowing the archtype to be taken. As long the ethos is similar to Irori.

Arshea seems like she'd probably be a little-tiny-maybe-bit over the line as far as the archetype flavor goes, though. Possibly.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

That's not what is listed in the Code of Conduct.

You are adding, again, something that is not there.


This isn't the rules forum. Also, getting off-topic.

On topic: I haven't checked the abilities specifically, but they only stack if they assign different 'types' to the AC bonus (deflection/dodge/etc.) If they are 'untyped' bonuses, you can only apply charisma once.

And since we're in the Advice forum, I'd recommend running it by your GM. Even without the apparently-inflammatory deity issue, triple-dipping Charisma is something your GM might not appreciate. Better to get approval first then have trouble crop up later.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Seeing as worship of a specific deity is part of the build, I don't see how it is off topic, and the OP had concerns about what parts of the combination would not work, it seems very relevant.

Is mentioning what stacks not relevant either?


A paladin of Irori would have to worship Irori so yes likely dedication to multiple deities is unlikely. Belief yes dedication likely no.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

The archetype does not specify a required worship of a specific deity.


To be an "Iroran Paladin" you have to actually worship Irori.

Imho that is so utterly obvious the didnt feel the need to write it down explicitly.

Like on the level of "If you are dead you stop taking actions".


Doesn't the iroran paladin say they make their own code anyway?


The entry with the flavor text still in it (aside: always check the Archives of Nethys when using setting specific stuff) makes it much clearer that the Iroran Paladin is, in fact, a paladin of Irori - it's because you're following Irori that you get to create your own personal code. That's how Irori rolls.

Though if you're paladin, your god is technically optional. (Though I can't speak for PFS.) Paladins usually worship a deity but aren't required to.

Perhaps the Iroran Arshean paladin just serves two masters.

You're probably a heretic by orthodox Iroran standards (and perhaps a stick in the mud by orthodox Arshean standards), but the more laid-back ones might find you hilarious.

(Though as mentioned above, the most important thing would be to check with your GM and make sure (s)he's not going to want to strangle you for stacking all that stuff =P)

Liberty's Edge

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blackbloodtroll wrote:

Think of it like Brazilian jiu-jitsu.

You don't have to be Brazilian, or live in Brazil.

Son of a @#$%!! Why didn't someone tell me this sooner? I could've been a martial arts master by now!

Oh, well. Too late. Back to my Cheetos...

Scarab Sages

The Dawnflower Dervish bard has explicit rules text stating that you must worship Sarenrae or you revert to a standard bard.

The Iroran Paladin does not, but does state that each paladin in Irori's service creates their own code, and that strongly states the RAI is that it is Irori only.

Quote:
Iroran paladins meditate on self-perfection and train relentlessly, knowing that their example can inspire others to excel. Irori offers no universal paladin code— each paladin in his service creates his own code as part of his spiritual journey, seeing the adherence to such a self-formulated creed as one of the many tests one must face to reach perfection.


And here im just thinking about how the PC is going to have to spend one hour doing Arsheas obedience every day :P.


I only just realized that, at least in the OP, the third boon is charisma as armor rather than dex. That should work with the other two, theoretically. Hard to say without seeing the source though.

But again, you'll want to run this by your GM for multiple reasons.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Think of it like Brazilian jiu-jitsu.

You don't have to be Brazilian, or live in Brazil.

Not quite the same. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu came from Brazil. What you're trying to do is say that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu came from Canada.

It is heavily implied since Iroran literally means "of Irori". At the very least, if you don't worship Irori you have to follow the standard Paladin code, since the god is specifically mentioned in that ability.

I'd also like everyone to favorite this thread, and when a feat comes out with totally wonky wording, like Slashing Grace, and you're wondering why, take a look back here and see if a light bulb doesn't go off.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

If I were GMing a game set in Golarion, I'd probably enforce the Archives of Nethys interpretation (official), but if I were running a homebrew, I'd use the d20pfsrd.com one.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:

The Iroran Paladin archetype does not restrict you to worshiping Irori.

But I do. Not that it makes a huge difference, as worshiping Arshea won't grant you the Cha armor bonus until 13th level at the earliest.


OP is surely gone by now, but I think my point about this being a thing you should check with your GM stands due to heavy RAI vibes.


Wow, I did not expect this to get so much attention.

Thanks for the views, I completely agree with the view that two of them can work together, that's what I was thinking to begin with.

And thank you for the insight on the Iroran Paladin, I'll have to remember to use Archives as my default search next time I look something up

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

You could be worshiping a Pantheon, that includes both gods.

Scarab Sages

blackbloodtroll wrote:
You could be worshiping a Pantheon, that includes both gods.

In PFS at least, worshipping a pantheon does not allow you the mechanical benefits of worshipping multiple gods.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

That is PFS.

You could also believe Arshea and Irori are just different manifestations of the same entity.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Believing it doesn't make it so, of course. It's a reasonable option to take if the GM wants to allow it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

You could also respect, and worship Irori for your mind, and body, whilst worshiping Arshea for your spirit and heart.

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