Golarion "Africa" equivalent

[darth_borehd]

Does Golarion have an Africa-like location? If so, when will we see stats on the races and creatures from there?

[Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal]

Um, that would be the continent of Garund.
We have already seen quite a bit of content for there.
How well it scratches your itch for 'african' is largely dependent on what you mean by 'african'.

[Imbicatus]

Ummmmm... The entire Garund continent is Africa. Osirion is an Egypt analog, Sargava is the Ivory Coast, Mwangi Expanse is vast and covers much of the rest of west and central Africa.

[Ms. Pleiades]

Rahadoum of Thuvia cover Sub-Saharan Africa fairly well. Katapesh, Geb and Nex are fairly niche settings of Mos Eisley, Undead-ruled Kingdom and Arcane Madness Kingdom respectively.

The others have covered what other analogues are provided by the other kingdoms.

We haven't seen a lot of Southern Garund however.

[darth_borehd]

I know little about the Golarion campaign setting.

We have races, archetypes, and creatures from Asian mythology, so what am wondering is where are the same from African mythology? There's a few creatures that seem inspired from Egyptian culture but hardly anything from sub-Saharan Africa.

[darth_borehd]

I was hoping to find something like Nyambe but for pathfinder.

[Rynjin]

Take a look at the Serpent's Skull adventure path, it has a bit of what you're looking for.

[Mosaic]

darth_borehd wrote:

I was hoping to find something like Nyambe but for pathfinder.

You CANNOT beat Nyambe for $10.

[xavier c]

The Mwangi Expanse does not cover west Africa, west Africa had many civilizations, kingdoms and empires.

[Kalindlara]

darth_borehd wrote:

I was hoping to find something like Nyambe but for pathfinder.

The Serpent's Skull Adventure Path actually uses content from that book in a couple of places. ^_^

[David knott 242]

We should also note that we know less about Garund than a quick glance at the Inner Sea map would lead you to believe. I read somewhere that the Golarion equivalent of the Tropic of Cancer passes through the Mana Wastes near the southern end of the map. In the real world, the Tropic of Cancer passes through the Sahara Desert slightly north of its center. So, either Garund is positioned further north than real world Africa or it is noticeably bigger. If the latter is true, then there is a LOT of unexplored territory off the south end of the Inner Sea map.

[Draco Bahamut]

After reading Heart of the Jungle, i can say that it is much more Africa from pulp fiction than real world Africa. The Mwangi are never in the center stage, they are just the strange people that lived there before de Avistani came. There is even a entire ethnicity of demon worshipers.
Distant Shore appears better in that aspect, but i don´t think anything new will come in that aspect on short notice.

[Blackvial]

xavier c wrote:

The Mwangi Expanse does not cover west Africa, west Africa had many civilizations, kingdoms and empires.

the Mwangi Expanse does have many different kingdoms and at one time it had an empire or 2 rule over it, also the Mwangi people are a very diverse people

[The Raven Black]

Check Shory and old-man Jatembe before complaining :-)

[Blackvial]

The Raven Black wrote:

Check Shory and old-man Jatembe before complaining :-)

also read the novel Firesoul

[Chris Lambertz]

Removed a baiting post and the responses to it.

[Glewistee]

David knott 242 wrote:

We should also note that we know less about Garund than a quick glance at the Inner Sea map would lead you to believe. I read somewhere that the Golarion equivalent of the Tropic of Cancer passes through the Mana Wastes near the southern end of the map. In the real world, the Tropic of Cancer passes through the Sahara Desert slightly north of its center. So, either Garund is positioned further north than real world Africa or it is noticeably bigger. If the latter is true, then there is a LOT of unexplored territory off the south end of the Inner Sea map.

Looking at the world map, it seems that the portion of Garund shown on the Inner Sea map is about 1/4th of the continent.

[Mavrickindigo]

I enjoy what we have of Garund. It's a much more adventurous place than Avistan. Avistan seems so gloomy, you know? It's got a lot of that "crap is bad up here, you need to fix it." while Garund is much more "this stuff is cool! Go explore it!"

[Generic Villain]

darth_borehd wrote:

I know little about the Golarion campaign setting.

We have races, archetypes, and creatures from Asian mythology, so what am wondering is where are the same from African mythology? There's a few creatures that seem inspired from Egyptian culture but hardly anything from sub-Saharan Africa.

The Asian analogue - Tien Xia - came several years after the African analogue - Graund. The Inner Sea campaign setting has had Garund from the beginning, which is essentially the upper third of Africa.

I'm actually surprised you know about the Asian-themed races, archetypes, and monsters without having spotted the many African ones as well.

Races: Garundi (human), Pahmet (dwarves), grippli (frog people), Bekyar (human), Bonuwat (human), Mauxi (human), Zenj (human), charau-ka (monkey people), Mwangi elves, etc.

Archetypes: juju mystery for oracles, animist archetype for shamans - actually, the shaman class in general, Bekyar kidnapper for the rogue, jungle rager for the barbarian, and the Magaambyan Arcanist prestige class. There are also lots of archetypes that, while not strictly "African," are clearly inspired by it, or fit there quite well. Barbarians, druids, shamans, hunters, and rangers are all great places to look.

Monsters: I'd suggest you look through the six volumes of the Serpent's Skull, Mummy's Mask, and to a lesser extend, Skull and shackles APs, and the Heart of the Jungle book. Off the topic of my head, there's the pobobala, mkole mbembe, miengu, and sabosan.

[Kalindlara]

Technically, Tian Xia has been part of the setting since Burnt Offerings. Serpent's Skull and Heart of the Jungle only predate Jade Regent and the various Dragon Empires books by about a year, I believe.

Also, Legacy of Fire is arguably the first Garundi AP. Its flavor is much more Arabian, however, so there's that.

[Generic Villain]

Kalindlara wrote:

Technically, Tian Xia has been part of the setting since Burnt Offerings. Serpent's Skull and Heart of the Jungle only predate Jade Regent and the various Dragon Empires books by about a year, I believe.

Also, Legacy of Fire is arguably the first Garundi AP. Its flavor is much more Arabian, however, so there's that.

Tian-Xia was name-dropped, but we never had any information on it until Jade Regent - and along with it, the ninja and samurai in Ultimate Combat, and the gazeteer of the continent in Dragon Kingdoms. That was 4 years into the Pathfinder game. By comparison, Garund has been detailed, explored, and fleshed out since day 1 with the Entombed with the Pharaohs module.

I didn't count Legacy of Fire for the reason you noted.

One of the big issues I see, is when people say "Africa," they often mean sub-Saharan Africa and don't include Egypt. And that's fine, but as of now two-thirds of Garund remains undetailed. We know roughly what's down there - a kingdom of Amazons, a lizardfolk nation, more jungles, some human city-states. Are these more "African" than the top third of Garund? Maybe.

What we most certainly do have is northern Garund and the Mwangi Expanse, which correspond solidly with northern Africa and the Congo rainforest.

[Kalindlara]

I've only skimmed Entombed With The Pharaohs - the module line is kind of my blind spot. How much of Garund was in there, though? I'd count from Osirion, Land of Pharaohs and Heart of the Jungle, personally.

Also, the newly released Distant Shores has given us a little glimpse into the Amazonian nation of Holomog.

[Generic Villain]

Kalindlara wrote:

I've only skimmed Entombed With The Pharaohs - the module line is kind of my blind spot. How much of Garund was in there, though? I'd count from Osirion, Land of Pharaohs and Heart of the Jungle, personally.

Quite a bit. It was an excellent introduction to Osirion - the climate, people, politics. When I said that Gardun was included from the beginning, what I really should have pointed at was the Gazeteer released in 2008. That was the first Campaign Setting-style book.

[Kalindlara]

I'll give you that. I miss the old Campaign Setting book. ^_^

[Kobold Catgirl]

I'm really curious—does Golarion have a South/Central America analogue? Or did our "jungle quota" get used up on Mwafrica?

[Kalindlara]

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I'm really curious—does Golarion have a South/Central America analogue? Or did our "jungle quota" get used up on Mwafrica?

This is heavily believed to be included in Arcadia, which takes the place of the Americas. We've seen almost none of Arcadia so far, though; Distant Shores was our first real glimpse, and the location there was much more North American.

However, Saventh-Yhi (see Serpent's Skull) has a little of that aesthetic going on.

[Generic Villain]

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I'm really curious—does Golarion have a South/Central America analogue? Or did our "jungle quota" get used up on Mwafrica?

What Kalindlara said. From Distant Shores, it appears the the northern part of Arcadia resembles the pre-colonial Native American nation-states. However, Arcadia is also big - it's sometimes listed as the largest continent in Golarion (though I think Tian Xia, or maybe Casmaron, get that billing as well). If that's the case, you can bet there are plenty of ziggurats, massive desert paintings, cliff cities, and at least one solid Machu Picchu stand in just waiting for exploration as one heads south.

Oh, and as large as the Mwangi Expanse rain forest is, it don't hold a candle to Valashmei in Tian-Xia.

[Generic Villain]

Okay, so I've been looking for this since the conversation started. It's the forward of the The Thousand Fangs Below adventure, of the very much African Adventure Path. In it, F. Wesley Schneider notes a few things relevant to this thread. In short:

When developing the Serpent's Skull AP, Wes utilized the real world book African Mythology to come up with authentic African monsters such as the impundulu, eloko, and tikoloshe. That said, many of them were simply talking or monstrous versions of actual animals such as crocodiles or hippopotami. In short, he admitted having trouble finding a large number of African monsters and cryptids that could be converted to the PF setting, especially compared to the rich folklore and mythology of, for example, Egypt, Greece, and Japan. To quote directly: "Despite all the fantastic sources for monstrous beasts and brutes, for one reason on another, it’s been a challenge finding folkloric creatures that simply scream for inclusion in Serpent’s Skull."

So if it seems like Pathfinder has a dearth of African-type monsters, perhaps this is as good an explanation as any.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Generic Villain wrote:

So if it seems like Pathfinder has a dearth of African-type monsters, perhaps this is as good an explanation as any.

It's a shame, but that's the problem with scholarship being run by racist guys who weren't from Africa.

[Rynjin]

SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:

Generic Villain wrote:

So if it seems like Pathfinder has a dearth of African-type monsters, perhaps this is as good an explanation as any.

It's a shame, but that's the problem with scholarship being run by racist guys who weren't from Africa.

I believe you mean "The Dark Continent".

[Generic Villain]

SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:

It's a shame, but that's the problem with scholarship being run by racist guys who weren't from Africa.

I hope you weren't referring to the authors at Paizo. Pathfinder is the most egalitarian, inclusive RPG I've played in 20 years. My opinion taken with a grain of salt, of course.

Wes's point was more that the fantastic elements of African mythology/folklore tended toward speaking or giant animals. Obviously he found some exceptions: the popoballa, mokole mbembe, miengu, tuyewera, biloko, chemosit, impundulu, obambo, eloko, tikoloshe, inkanyamba, lukwata, umdhlebi, grootslang, and kongamato are all Pathfinder monsters straight from African folklore. You can go ahead and Google any one of them. So to suggest that Pathfinder lacks African-themed monsters is provably false.

By contrast however, do you know how many monsters exist in Japanese myths alone? Just do a search on yokai. Or go here. For whatever reason (ask an anthropologist?), some cultures are much bigger on adding extraordinary beasts to their mythology than others.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Generic Villain wrote:

SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:

It's a shame, but that's the problem with scholarship being run by racist guys who weren't from Africa.

I hope you weren't referring to the authors at Paizo.

Sorry, I meant to suggest "the people who did most of the modern cataloging of myths, legends, and stories for a long time" i.e. white academics from previous centuries.

[Generic Villain]

SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:

Sorry, I meant to suggest "the people who did most of the modern cataloging of myths, legends, and stories for a long time" i.e. white academics from previous centuries.

Ah okay, my bad. In that case: agreed.

[Yakman]

Mavrickindigo wrote:

I enjoy what we have of Garund. It's a much more adventurous place than Avistan. Avistan seems so gloomy, you know? It's got a lot of that "crap is bad up here, you need to fix it." while Garund is much more "this stuff is cool! Go explore it!"

gotta say that's a good take.

Treerazer, Runelords, Tar-Barphon, Worldwound, Chelaxian Devilry, Belkzen Orcs... vs. "hey! What's over there!?"

[Muser]

In comparison, Ruthazek, Geb, Ahriman, Ulunat, Mzali, etc.

[Yakman]

Muser wrote:

In comparison, Ruthazek, Geb, Ahriman, Ulunat, Mzali, etc.

well, i meant the further reaches of Garund, beyond the coasts. point taken though.

[Cruel Illusion]

Garund is nice, but it lacks something esssential: Endemic player races with their own realms.
Mostly Garund has dark-skinned versions of the Avistani races, plus the Catfolk and the Ganzi who are both presented as rather rare, and not that big of an influence on the continent.

[TheMountain]

Cruel Illusion wrote:

Garund is nice, but it lacks something esssential: Endemic player races with their own realms.

I agree, though one could always incorpate Kobold Press's The Southlands, as they include stats for four new races.

[Zaister]

Southands is awesome. Check out Endzeitgeist's review if you're unsure.

[MMCJawa]

Cruel Illusion wrote:

Garund is nice, but it lacks something esssential: Endemic player races with their own realms.

Mostly Garund has dark-skinned versions of the Avistani races, plus the Catfolk and the Ganzi who are both presented as rather rare, and not that big of an influence on the continent.

I suspect we will get more new races for Southern Garund when the place gets more detail

[Deadmanwalking]

Draco Bahamut wrote:

After reading Heart of the Jungle, i can say that it is much more Africa from pulp fiction than real world Africa. The Mwangi are never in the center stage, they are just the strange people that lived there before de Avistani came. There is even a entire ethnicity of demon worshipers.

Uh...this is somewhat true of that specific book. It is not true at all of the setting as a whole.

And there's almost a whole ethnicity of Avistani Devil-Worshipers. :)

Draco Bahamut wrote:

Distant Shore appears better in that aspect, but i don´t think anything new will come in that aspect on short notice.

That's far from the only place to talk about how awesome some people in the Mwangi Expanse are. See: All references to Old Mage Jatembe and his legacy (including existent and impressive magical schools).

And then, of course, there's the fact that the most magically advanced nations in the Inner Sea (Nex, Geb, even Rahadoum in Arcane magic) are all Garundi...

Cruel Illusion wrote:

Garund is nice, but it lacks something esssential: Endemic player races with their own realms.

Mostly Garund has dark-skinned versions of the Avistani races, plus the Catfolk and the Ganzi who are both presented as rather rare, and not that big of an influence on the continent.

Both of those as well as Lizardfolk have been mentioned as prominent in southern Garund. If we ever get the Southern Garund Book, I expect we'll get a set of seven 'core races' including those and a few from the standard list.

[thistledown]

Having a huricane park on their coastline for a hundred years did not do any favors for Lirgen, but before that they were a bunch of astronomer philosophers.

[Cruel Illusion]

MMCJawa wrote:

Cruel Illusion wrote:

Garund is nice, but it lacks something esssential: Endemic player races with their own realms.

Mostly Garund has dark-skinned versions of the Avistani races, plus the Catfolk and the Ganzi who are both presented as rather rare, and not that big of an influence on the continent.

I suspect we will get more new races for Southern Garund when the place gets more detail

I hope so, but really Northern Garund easily could have had its own indigenous races already.

We already have books about Katapesh, Osirion, the Shackles, and Sargava.
Only the Shackles have their own original race (the Kuru) and they're mostly monsters to be exterminated on sight, with no culture to speak of or realm of their own.

Garund (and other places, like Irrisen and Numeria) has been presented a bit more as an exotic location for foreign adventurers to explore than as a the place the adventurers come from. It's all mysterious places, exotic people and unknown dangers, while the local population and its culture are rather vaguely described (which I get, it's a RPG, not an anthropology paper). But it means we're more likely to get the same treatment for most new places; adventure material rather than setting elements.