On the Problems with Communication, Discourse, and Social Justice


Off-Topic Discussions

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I think "Twilight" mostly just gets blamed for the fact that "vampire romance" is now an actual genre. That said, vampires-as-love-interests-not-monsters are all over Buffy and Anita Blake and so on, so we can't really pinpoint that.

And, yeah, it's been often noted that the so-called vampires in Twilight are really just superhero love interests with long teeth, not undead monsters, but, meh (Varney, while sympathetic, despises his condition, and it's presented as an actual curse that makes him do lots of evil stuff and ultimately leads him to destroy himself -- it's not just a handy source of superpowers).

Grand Lodge

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Kirth Gersen wrote:
I think "Twilight" gets blamed for the fact that "vampire romance" is now an actual genre. .

It's been a genre since Dracula.


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LazarX wrote:
It's been a genre since Dracula.

Precious little "romance" in that, unless rape is your thing. Oh, unless you mean the Coppola movie, not the novel?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kirth Gersen wrote:
LazarX wrote:
It's been a genre since Dracula.
Precious little "romance" in that, unless rape is your thing. Oh, unless you mean the Copola movie, not the novel?

Romance or it's darker shade is a major element in Dracula. Such as when undead Lucy tries to lure her lover into sharing her dark embrace. It's also the major motivation for the hero.

But yes, Coppola and others have woven romance into vampire movies long before Twilight. The main reason Twilight hate is a thing is pretty much because the Internet and social media provide bandwagons to jump on.


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LazarX wrote:

Romance or its darker shade is a major element in Dracula. Such as when undead Lucy tries to lure her lover into sharing her dark embrace. It's also the major motivation for the hero.

But yes, Coppola and others have woven romance into vampire movies long before Twilight. The main reason Twilight hate is a thing is pretty much because the Internet and social media provide bandwagons to jump on.

Still, in Dracula, the title character is unmistakably a monster, not a perfect superhero fantasy boyfriend. That's not by any stretch of the imagination confined to Twilight, but it does seem to be all the rage now.

The Oatmeal on "Twilight"

Sovereign Court

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Glitter is the biggest complaint I've heard. Vampire romance is just fine. But, why did they have to be glittery?


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137ben wrote:
A lot of very true and relevant stuff

Mostly, my problem with it is that it's just so very very VERY badly written. I wasn't expecting Shakespeare, but I ALSO wasn't expecting to be bored to tears by a complete lack of anything even remotely unique, exciting, or innovative in these pages. If you're going to write a story about forbidden love between a human and monsters, make them actual monsters and not idealized specimens of humanity with no flaws.

Liberty's Edge

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Kirth Gersen wrote:
LazarX wrote:
It's been a genre since Dracula.
Precious little "romance" in that, unless rape is your thing. Oh, unless you mean the Coppola movie, not the novel?

There's a reason I listed two books. Carmilla has the romance (scandalous lesbian romance no less) and came out thirty years before Dracula.


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As a poet I would cite poor Geraldine (1790s) as the grandam of weird lesbian romance, in English at least (though Coleridge never specifies what manner of being she is).


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jocundthejolly wrote:
As a poet I would cite poor Geraldine (1790s) as the grandam of weird lesbian romance, in English at least (though Coleridge never specifies what manner of being she is).

I misread this as "the Gundam of weird lesbian romance".

I really, really need to read this story.

It could have been my mother.


KingOfAnything wrote:
Glitter is the biggest complaint I've heard. Vampire romance is just fine. But, why did they have to be glittery?

The only vampire allowed to sparkle is Dio Brando.


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If Twilight created the vampire erotica/romance genre... then what was Anne Rice doing all these years, since Interview with the vampire in 1976? And of course, it certainly wasn't popularized by Tom Cruise in the 1994 movie, right?

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

What people really dislike about Twilight is that it made vampires popular in a not-gloomy, all about death, way.

Blasphemy of the highest order.

We geeks so love to have our Eros mixed with Thanatos.

Liberty's Edge

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I'm fairly sure it has more to do with the bad writing, but sure, make it all about how elitist we are.


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Sissyl wrote:
If Twilight created the vampire erotica/romance genre... then what was Anne Rice doing all these years, since Interview with the vampire in 1976? And of course, it certainly wasn't popularized by Tom Cruise in the 1994 movie, right?

I think the big difference is that while it might have been glamorized in the past, in Interview and elsewhere - even some takes on Dracula, it wasn't shifted over to an entirely positive, heroic romance in those works.

There were definitely erotic overtones in Rice's books, to say the least, but I don't recall any great mortal/vampire love affairs. Some in character's backstories, but they tended to end tragically.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
thejeff wrote:


There were definitely erotic overtones in Rice's books, to say the least, but I don't recall any great mortal/vampire love affairs. Some in character's backstories, but they tended to end tragically.

There are elements of it in the Mayfair Witches, but that's an undefined spirit as opposed to a vampire. The lines get rather blurry between romance, and plain old lust.


One of the few movies where you can't tell if it's a case of the books being better than the movies, because both of those are awful.


LazarX wrote:
thejeff wrote:


There were definitely erotic overtones in Rice's books, to say the least, but I don't recall any great mortal/vampire love affairs. Some in character's backstories, but they tended to end tragically.

There are elements of it in the Mayfair Witches, but that's an undefined spirit as opposed to a vampire. The lines get rather blurry between romance, and plain old lust.

Elements, but still the spirit is the bad guy that the main characters are struggling against.


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Cerberus Seven wrote:
137ben wrote:
A lot of very true and relevant stuff
Mostly, my problem with it is that it's just so very very VERY badly written. I wasn't expecting Shakespeare, but I ALSO wasn't expecting to be bored to tears by a complete lack of anything even remotely unique, exciting, or innovative in these pages. If you're going to write a story about forbidden love between a human and monsters, make them actual monsters and not idealized specimens of humanity with no flaws.

See, that's a complaint that actually makes sense!

At least, it makes sense when you say it since you actually read it. It wouldn't make sense for me to say I found the writing in Twilight horrible, since I haven't read it, primarily because of the negative reviews and the fact that romance novels aren't my thing.

jocundthejolly wrote:
As a poet I would cite poor Geraldine (1790s) as the grandam of weird lesbian romance, in English at least (though Coleridge never specifies what manner of being she is).

If we aren't restricted to English than I think lesbian romance started considerably earlier (arguably with Sappho, though some people debate that one).

While we're on a tangent, though, I sort of wonder what the world would be like if people held novels to the same standard as TTRPGs (or vice versa). Imagine if every critique of Twighlight was met with some variation of "Well, until you're a NYT best-selling novelist your criticism is worthless!" or "If you don't like Twighlight then it's YOUR job as the reader to rewrite it until you DO like it! If you can't be bothered to house rule an official published novel then stop whining and go play an MMO!"
Or, conversely, imagine how different this hobby would be if people who dislike a product didn't blame themselves and instead decided not to buy a product just for the privilege of writing it themselves.


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...That exists, though.


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The 'first modern British' vampire story is 'The Vampyre', written by John William Pollidori, who was, for a while, Lord Byron's personal doctor. A documentary about them and the Shelleys (when Mary wrote Frankenstein) claimed that the Vampire (Lord Ruthven) in this story is pretty much based on Lord Byron. (Another Lord Ruthven, in a story written by Caroline Lamb, is definitely based on Lord Byron.)
Byron was, it seems, very attractive but not a very nice person.

Liberty's Edge

Not really sure why this became about what the first vampire novel or lesbian romance story was rather than how horrible Stephenie Meyer and all her works (which we'll include 50 Shades as) are.


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Krensky wrote:
Not really sure why this became about what the first vampire novel or lesbian romance story was rather than how horrible Stephenie Meyer and all her works (which we'll include 50 Shades as) are.

I'm not even sure why it became about that.


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thejeff wrote:
Krensky wrote:
Not really sure why this became about what the first vampire novel or lesbian romance story was rather than how horrible Stephenie Meyer and all her works (which we'll include 50 Shades as) are.
I'm not even sure why it became about that.

Scythia linked to an article which talked about Stephanie Myer, and some people feel strongly enough about Twilight to turn it into a derail.

Liberty's Edge

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So it's all Scythia's fault. Gotcha.

* Goes to get the tar and feathers ready.


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Do we need a certain size of rail to run her out of town on, or can I make do with whatever crap is in my shed?

Liberty's Edge

I don't think a rail will be necessary.


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In the spirit of the thread, let us all, no matter our group affiliation, join in the spirit of annoyance over vampires being turned from a commentary about human nature, and an example of that which we fear in ourselves (giving in to base instinct, being consumed by our desires, etc) into a mindless vehicle to sell sub par romance novels and their terrible film derivatives.

There will be a camp fire and obligatory singing of kum bi yah, then back to the intensely charged discussion.

(and yes for the record, that post referenced way back on page 1 by the OP was my doing, sort of wish I had just stayed silent, sometimes when you open a can of worms, you cut your hand on the sharp edge, as they say)

I am with theJeff on that one, I second the motion to insert them into the above example.


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I think we should recast the river/boat problem with teenage girls and sparkly vampires.


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"A 1,000-year-old man seduces an underage girl and turns her into an undead monster. Please explain why he is an ideal boyfriend, in 3 volumes or less."


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Kirth Gersen wrote:
"A 1,000-year-old man seduces an underage girl and turns her into an undead monster. Please explain why he is an ideal boyfriend, in 3 volumes or less."

Of course, the problem with that framing is that he isn't presented as a monster.

"A 1,000-year-old man seduces an underage girl and gives her immortality and superpowers. Please explain why he is an ideal boyfriend, in 3 volumes or less."


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In that case, it becomes "please explain why I would want to read this."

Then again, I'm not a teenage girl.


I could try to think of reasons why one would want to read such, but I suspect my brain would explode, and no one wants to see that.


Kirth Gersen wrote:

In that case, it becomes "please explain why I would want to read this."

Then again, I'm not a teenage girl.

I suspect someone could right a good story around that premise. That someone would not be Stephenie Meyer.

Hell, some seasons of new Who come frighteningly close.


Well, if they can sell Moby Dick as an action/adventure movie, then anything is possible I guess (am I the only one horrified by the turning of a literary classic into a mindless man vs. nature informed action flick?)


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"A 1,000-year-old male undead glittery pedophile seduces a high school girl and gives her a fatal STD. Please explain why he is an ideal boyfriend, in 3 volumes or less."

Liberty's Edge

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Confession:

I once got ostracized for wondering out loud when Buffy and Angel consummated things if it was pedophilia, necrophilia, or both.


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"Is that rigor mortis, or are you happy to see me?"

Liberty's Edge

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GM_Beernorg wrote:
I could try to think of reasons why one would want to read such, but I suspect my brain would explode, and no one wants to see that.

I'll get the pop corn.


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GM_Beernorg wrote:
Well, if they can sell Moby Dick as an action/adventure movie, then anything is possible I guess (am I the only one horrified by the turning of a literary classic into a mindless man vs. nature informed action flick?)

Look at the Wikipedia page for Moby Dick. Melville based a lot of the book on his experience on a whaling ship and two instances of interactions with rather bad-ass ceteceans. For instance:

Melville's Sources wrote:
One was the sinking of the Nantucket ship Essex in 1820, after it was rammed by an enraged sperm whale 2,000 miles (3,200 km) from the western coast of South America. First mate Owen Chase, one of eight survivors, recorded the events in his 1821 Narrative of the Most Extraordinary and Distressing Shipwreck of the Whale-Ship Essex


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Yep, very true that he wrote from some personal experience, however unless the trailer is really misrepresenting the movie, the "queue fight scene music and enter way bigger than a real sperm whale super Moby Dick" looks to be flying in the face of the actual themes of Moby Dick (one is man vs. nature to be sure). I just personally suspect I will dislike the directors take. Also, I have actually read the book, least anyone ask.

(ok fine, Krensky wants to see that, maybe if I charge a cover charge for the event, it could be worth it, wonder what the going rate to replace a whole brain is...)

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
GM_Beernorg wrote:
Well, if they can sell Moby Dick as an action/adventure movie, then anything is possible I guess (am I the only one horrified by the turning of a literary classic into a mindless man vs. nature informed action flick?)

Considering that it was a well acted high production flick, you may not be the only one, but you're definitely in a minority.


thejeff wrote:
Krensky wrote:
Not really sure why this became about what the first vampire novel or lesbian romance story was rather than how horrible Stephenie Meyer and all her works (which we'll include 50 Shades as) are.
I'm not even sure why it became about that.

I was away with a family emergency long enough to fail to be present enough during a long series of off-topic (though related) back-and-forths, and, by the time I returned, Infigured there was no getting back to the OP Train (despite much of what the OP was saying happening throughout the initial asides), so I hopped aboard the most recent rabbit trail for fun.


Or what 137ben said. Yeah, let's go with that. Shove all responsibility on someone else! Free! I'm tellin' ya, I know a guy...


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Whoa! Don't pull me into this!


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One good thing came out of Twilight.
I present Awoken, a Cthulhu romance novel.


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Now that I can get behind, ancient elderitch horror romance, there is hope yet.


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GM_Beernorg wrote:
Now that I can get behind, ancient elderitch horror romance, there is hope yet.

It's amusing reading the reviews on it by people who don't realize it was intended as a parody, many of whom gave it 5 stars.


I am intrigued now, I may have to buy that book, though wondering how one could not realize it is a parody, oh well, a good read is a good read. I for one don't mind a little tongue in cheek with our tentacled overlord once in a while.


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GM_Beernorg wrote:
I am intrigued now, I may have to buy that book, though wondering how one could not realize it is a parody, oh well, a good read is a good read. I for one don't mind a little tongue in cheek with our tentacled overlord once in a while.

The authors wanted to prove how bad the state of young adult literature was, so they made what they thought was the worst possible thing they could, with the help of twitter, to show how far something could get into the review process. They were expecting to document their journey and self-publish a terrible manuscript along with details of the journey, to show how bad everyone they worked with was. They didn't need to self-publish because it was picked up with minimal edits. Currently, anything can get published as a YA novel.

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