Just a quick thing I threw together last night. Please enjoy.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/12ylykysKhdLRnipqo-ozviJ9UuO_0nznROatGXq D25Q/edit?usp=sharing
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Yeah okay, looking over this it looks like it needs some major work.
First of all, you really need to take a look at the way Psychic casting works before judging those metamagics - Logical Spell and Intuitive Spell are arguably better than Silent & Still. Most of the reasons for Still Spell being a thing no longer exist (Grappling no longer stops yo u from casting - it just gives you a super annoying concentration check based off the grappler's CMB), and Silent Spell was never very good unless you planned on casting silence yourself. Meanwhile any fear effect causes you to stop being able to provide an emotion component and a thought component either causes the concentration DC to be raised by 10 or for you to take a move action before casting - both of which are annoying when they come up.
You mention blasting as being bad, but you seem to have only written your guide from the viewpoint of a god wizard. Blasting is great if you're a magus - or if you're trying to be a blockbuster wizard (arguably more important since metamagic'd blasts are better than higher level spells). Intensify Spell is pretty much a required spell if you're a magus who is focusing on shocking grasp or a blockbuster wizard who is focusing on a traditional spell like fireball.
Specialist sorcerers also will use metamagic - especially enchantment-focused sorcerers, who often do not have the spell choices to have spells designed to take care of every creature that is immune to mind-affecting effects. Coaxing Spell and Threnodic Spell are very useful here.
If you want to write a metamagic guide for god wizards, then feel free to. But tell people that on the tin. Right now people are expecting the Guide to Metamagic in general, and it has way more uses than the God Wizard would imply.
This is the actual link.
I appreciate the link help :p
Yeah okay, looking over this it looks like it needs some major work.
First of all, you really need to take a look at the way Psychic casting works before judging those metamagics - Logical Spell and Intuitive Spell are arguably better than Silent & Still. Most of the reasons for Still Spell being a thing no longer exist (Grappling no longer stops yo u from casting - it just gives you a super annoying concentration check based off the grappler's CMB), and Silent Spell was never very good unless you planned on casting silence yourself. Meanwhile any fear effect causes you to stop being able to provide an emotion component and a thought component either causes the concentration DC to be raised by 10 or for you to take a move action before casting - both of which are annoying when they come up.
You mention blasting as being bad, but you seem to have only written your guide from the viewpoint of a god wizard. Blasting is great if you're a magus - or if you're trying to be a blockbuster wizard (arguably more important since metamagic'd blasts are better than higher level spells). Intensify Spell is pretty much a required spell if you're a magus who is focusing on shocking grasp or a blockbuster wizard who is focusing on a traditional spell like fireball.
Specialist sorcerers also will use metamagic - especially enchantment-focused sorcerers, who often do not have the spell choices to have spells designed to take care of every creature that is immune to mind-affecting effects. Coaxing Spell and Threnodic Spell are very useful here.
If you want to write a metamagic guide for god wizards, then feel free to. But tell people that on the tin. Right now people are expecting the Guide to Metamagic in general, and it has way more uses than the God Wizard would imply.
This is mostly written from the perspective of a "god" - though I use this advice with similar builds as well, such as non-pure buff clerics and witches and the like. You are correct that I should preface it a bit better, and I'm making the edits now.
I would disagree with your point on sorcerers. When I play one, I usually pick "utility" spells that affect almost anything, instead of a type of magic that's easily shut down by numerous monster types. Even if I'm focusing on enchantment (because I did once) I'd also pick up something like Summon Monster that works on everything.
I am not very familiar with Occult Adventures. I'll look into it - thanks for the advice! It sounded like it was just replacing a typical component, and that sounded useless. I'll reevaluate it now.
I'm getting "File does not exist" :(
https://docs.google.com/document/d/12ylykysKhdLRnipqo-ozviJ9UuO_0nznROatGXq D25Q/edit?pli=1
Try this, and feel free to call me an idiot...
In my opinion, "metamagic guide for God wizards" is entirely too niche a subject. Either write a full guide to God wizards (by which I mean copy and paste Logic Ninja's guide, but make up your own color scheme because heaven forbid something be easily accessible), or else write a metamagic guide inclusive of prepared casters, spontaneous casters, half casters, and even, dare I say it, divine casters.
As it is, outdated, limited, and sometimes (in my opinion) as wrong as it is, I think Rylar's guide to metamagic is a more helpful guide, if only due to the brief discussion of how different classes should think about which metamagics to take.
In my opinion, "metamagic guide for God wizards" is entirely too niche a subject. Either write a full guide to God wizards (by which I mean copy and paste Logic Ninja's guide, but make up your own color scheme because heaven forbid something be easily accessible), or else write a metamagic guide inclusive of prepared casters, spontaneous casters, half casters, and even, dare I say it, divine casters.
As it is, outdated, limited, and sometimes (in my opinion) as wrong as it is, I think Rylar's guide to metamagic is a more helpful guide, if only due to the brief discussion of how different classes should think about which metamagics to take.
This isn't just for god wizards - it's a general guide for god casters. I'm working on which feats you should take for which classes, but the advice mostly still applies. For instance, on a lot of my clerics I take Quicken and Reach spell. Prepared Arcane casters should take Quicken, Reach, and Dazing. Etc.
Yeah okay, looking over this it looks like it needs some major work.
First of all, you really need to take a look at the way Psychic casting works before judging those metamagics - Logical Spell and Intuitive Spell are arguably better than Silent & Still. Most of the reasons for Still Spell being a thing no longer exist (Grappling no longer stops yo u from casting - it just gives you a super annoying concentration check based off the grappler's CMB), and Silent Spell was never very good unless you planned on casting silence yourself. Meanwhile any fear effect causes you to stop being able to provide an emotion component and a thought component either causes the concentration DC to be raised by 10 or for you to take a move action before casting - both of which are annoying when they come up.
How do you see a full round action Intuitive Spell improving your action economy vs. burning a standard action to cast your spell and a move action to center? It's strictly worse in terms of spell interruption, and costs you a feat. Intuitive Spell is only worthwhile on rods.
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How do you see a full round action Intuitive Spell improving your action economy vs. burning a standard action to cast your spell and a move action to center? It's strictly worse in terms of spell interruption, and costs you a feat. Intuitive Spell is only worthwhile on rods.Yeah okay, looking over this it looks like it needs some major work.
First of all, you really need to take a look at the way Psychic casting works before judging those metamagics - Logical Spell and Intuitive Spell are arguably better than Silent & Still. Most of the reasons for Still Spell being a thing no longer exist (Grappling no longer stops yo u from casting - it just gives you a super annoying concentration check based off the grappler's CMB), and Silent Spell was never very good unless you planned on casting silence yourself. Meanwhile any fear effect causes you to stop being able to provide an emotion component and a thought component either causes the concentration DC to be raised by 10 or for you to take a move action before casting - both of which are annoying when they come up.
Spontaneous Metafocus is a thing.
I agree 100% with Iammars. You also are undervaluing Yai-mimic. It's benefit isn't that you heal one point a round, it's that you cannot die from hp damage while the regeneration is active. It's still situational, but it's not red.
Deathless is a thing.
First, this guide looks like to applicable only during high levels. The vast majority of feats you recommend start to work at high level. I mean, dazing is crazy good, but even at level 7 it's not worth it (Dazing Burning Hands?). That's more than an half of a PF character career. In the meantime, a Toppling Magic Missile just ruined half of the enemies action economy, and that works from level 3. And it always gets better.I agree with Iammars too. Today, Impossible Sorcerers can take care of every mind affecting immunity with 3 feats and a class feature (and may the gods save the enemies if it happen to be a kitsune sorcerer). Try also to check other points of view for metamagic users, blasters always prefer metamagic over spell level (Fireball and Delayed Fireball, Snowball and Flurry of Snowballs and many other couples stands as example).
Elemental spells works great if you are a spontaneous caster, meh if you aren't, and nothing if you are an admixturer, but I saw nothing about this.
Extend spell is wonderful, it allows your spells to last enough to be active the day after you cast it, refreshing the slot. Poor men Contingency, that is.
You should also say if metamagic effects are worth a rod. Dazing, enlarged, persistent fireball is hilarious, and the rod is only a lesser one.
Spell perfection also doesn't appear here. That's the point of most spellcasters.
Spontaneous Metafocus is a thing.How do you see a full round action Intuitive Spell improving your action economy vs. burning a standard action to cast your spell and a move action to center? It's strictly worse in terms of spell interruption, and costs you a feat. Intuitive Spell is only worthwhile on rods.Yeah okay, looking over this it looks like it needs some major work.
First of all, you really need to take a look at the way Psychic casting works before judging those metamagics - Logical Spell and Intuitive Spell are arguably better than Silent & Still. Most of the reasons for Still Spell being a thing no longer exist (Grappling no longer stops yo u from casting - it just gives you a super annoying concentration check based off the grappler's CMB), and Silent Spell was never very good unless you planned on casting silence yourself. Meanwhile any fear effect causes you to stop being able to provide an emotion component and a thought component either causes the concentration DC to be raised by 10 or for you to take a move action before casting - both of which are annoying when they come up.
Two feats to by a move action on one spell? No sale!
I agree 100% with Iammars. You also are undervaluing Yai-mimic. It's benefit isn't that you heal one point a round, it's that you cannot die from hp damage while the regeneration is active. It's still situational, but it's not red.Deathless is a thing.
First, this guide looks like to applicable only during high levels. The vast majority of feats you recommend start to work at high level. I mean, dazing is crazy good, but even at level 7 it's not worth it (Dazing Burning Hands?). That's more than an half of a PF character career. In the meantime, a Toppling Magic Missile just ruined half of the enemies action economy, and that works from level 3. And it always gets better.
I agree with Iammars too. Today, Impossible Sorcerers can take care of every mind affecting immunity with 3 feats and a class feature (and may the gods save the enemies if it happen to be a kitsune sorcerer). Try also to check other points of view for metamagic users, blasters always prefer metamagic over spell level (Fireball and Delayed Fireball, Snowball and Flurry of Snowballs and many other couples stands as example).
Elemental spells works great if you are a spontaneous caster, meh if you aren't, and nothing if you are an admixturer, but I saw nothing about this.
Extend spell is wonderful, it allows your spells to last enough to be active the day after you cast it, refreshing the slot. Poor men Contingency, that is.
You should also say if metamagic effects are worth a rod. Dazing, enlarged, persistent fireball is hilarious, and the rod is only a lesser one.
Spell perfection also doesn't appear here. That's the point of most spellcasters.
Well, not high level necessarily. More mid level and up. My perspective on this is, there are certain feats you need and should be getting early - Improved Initiative and Improved Familiar, to name a couple. By the time i'm usually looking at Metamagic, I'm at least eighth level. And moreover, Reach is a low level thing.
Change it from touch to close, that's only a +1, assuming you absolutely have to have some Metamagic early. I personally think it's best to frontload the standard feats, then take Metamagic, which is only really effective when you start getting 4th/5th level spells anyway.|
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Spontaneous Metafocus is a thing.How do you see a full round action Intuitive Spell improving your action economy vs. burning a standard action to cast your spell and a move action to center? It's strictly worse in terms of spell interruption, and costs you a feat. Intuitive Spell is only worthwhile on rods.Yeah okay, looking over this it looks like it needs some major work.
First of all, you really need to take a look at the way Psychic casting works before judging those metamagics - Logical Spell and Intuitive Spell are arguably better than Silent & Still. Most of the reasons for Still Spell being a thing no longer exist (Grappling no longer stops yo u from casting - it just gives you a super annoying concentration check based off the grappler's CMB), and Silent Spell was never very good unless you planned on casting silence yourself. Meanwhile any fear effect causes you to stop being able to provide an emotion component and a thought component either causes the concentration DC to be raised by 10 or for you to take a move action before casting - both of which are annoying when they come up.
Yeah, but Intuitive Spell is a really crappy reason to take Spontaneous Metafocus. Rods were what I was going with there.
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Yeah, but Intuitive Spell is a really crappy reason to take Spontaneous Metafocus. Rods were what I was going with there.Spontaneous Metafocus is a thing.How do you see a full round action Intuitive Spell improving your action economy vs. burning a standard action to cast your spell and a move action to center? It's strictly worse in terms of spell interruption, and costs you a feat. Intuitive Spell is only worthwhile on rods.Yeah okay, looking over this it looks like it needs some major work.
First of all, you really need to take a look at the way Psychic casting works before judging those metamagics - Logical Spell and Intuitive Spell are arguably better than Silent & Still. Most of the reasons for Still Spell being a thing no longer exist (Grappling no longer stops yo u from casting - it just gives you a super annoying concentration check based off the grappler's CMB), and Silent Spell was never very good unless you planned on casting silence yourself. Meanwhile any fear effect causes you to stop being able to provide an emotion component and a thought component either causes the concentration DC to be raised by 10 or for you to take a move action before casting - both of which are annoying when they come up.
Yeah. I would take Spontaneous Metafocus for a key spell for a different metamagic feat. But it wouldn't hurt to take intuitive spell as a secondary metamagic feat if you already have Spontaneous Metafocus.
It's also useful as a rod, although I despise metamagic rods on principle for removing the spell level adjustment.
Even though it's not the optimal strategy, lots of people like blasting. Instead of ridiculing those people, your guide should help them blast better.
Plus, you know, crossblooded sorcerer dip.
*Sigh*
Very well, I'll be nice to blasters. Ish. I at least gave them honest advice about whether to take Empower or Maximize.|
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Even though it's not the optimal strategy, lots of people like blasting. Instead of ridiculing those people, your guide should help them blast better.
Plus, you know, crossblooded sorcerer dip.
*Sigh*
Very well, I'll be nice to blasters. Ish. I at least gave them honest advice about whether to take Empower or Maximize.
That was wrong too. Empower is much better than Maximize for a blaster. Empower has much more bang for the buck, especially when you consider that bonus damage is also empowered for those crossblooded sorcerer dipping evokers with goblin fire drums.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Yeah, what Imbicatus said. Oddly enough, Intensify is in many cases better than Empower.
It may be useful in your guide to include a little table that goes 1-20, and lists average damage for e.g. Burning Hands / Scorching Ray / Fireball at those levels, along with their intensified / empowered / maximized versions. Then do the table again for a partial caster such as a bard. The results may surprise you.
Help... graphs...
I'm gonna see if someone else has a graph and ask nicely to steal it
Quicken lets you nova really hard. In some games that's the difference between a clean win and a TPK.
Sure thing. Let's say you've got a big bad guy and a swarm of mooks. Here are some possible scenarios:
Mass suffocate, Quickened Icy Prison - You throw out your big bomb to try and just kill everybody, but oops, BBEG makes his save. What do you do? Just go for that hail Mary spell targeting his much lower Reflex save, even though its DC is 4 less compared to Suffocate's.
Mass Icy Prison, Quickened Telekinetic Charge - BBEG is a caster, and makes his initial save? Enjoy a super Disruptive everything Fighter in your face, or maybe a Tetori.
Energy Drain, Quickened Enervation - 2d4 negative levels and you don't think he's crippled? Have another 1d4. That should knock the level 9 spells right out of him.
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I think the key to Quicken is not to use it on your highest spell slots. If your highest spells are level 5 spells, those are almost universally better than throwing out a Quickened level 1 spell. But if you've got level 6 and 7 spells, then your level 5 spell slots aren't as valuable, so a quickened level 1 to boost your higher level spells is useful.
For instance, Quickened True Strike + Disintegrate.
I haven't looked at this guide yet. Does it have recommendations for good uses of Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter?
This may seem odd, but I'm currently building a Nature Fang Druid as a quarterstaff master, and I was seriously tempted to take Magical Lineage: Shillelagh, just so I can quicken it at level 7. This guy is a melee PC who will only use his spells for buffs, so being able to quicken his most important buff seems pretty good. Are there any other metamagic feats that can be used on a buff spell like this that might be worthwhile for him?
Of course it's late levels. The earliest you can even cast a quickened spell via feat is level 9, which is when PFS is 75% over and done. It's halfway into any AP but WotR. I can make a case that throwing out a level 5 or 6 spell and a Glitterdust is useful, or even a high level spell and Communal Prot Evil (to hedge summoned monsters). Quickened Web could even be a good spell to cast alongside your real offense. And those things happen at 11 or 12.
I mean, the rules just don't allow you to make great use of quicken until you've got a lot of spells with high numbers attached.
Dazing, enlarged, persistent fireball is hilarious, and the rod is only a lesser one.
Wrong. The rod needs to match the modified spell level (see the FAQ on metamagic).
As to the guide, first error:
Attach this to glitterdust or fireball or something...
Doesn't work with glitter dust (or polymorph). Dazing only applies to spells that deal damage.
Error two:
If your DM allows you to use this to make metamagic use the saves equal to the level of the metamagic spell, well, they shouldn’t. But if they do, this is very powerful. So if they do, it’s a blue.
Um, this is one of the specific uses of the heighten spell, to increase the save DCs to match the level the spell was heightened to.
Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs...
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I agree 100% with Iammars. You also are undervaluing Yai-mimic. It's benefit isn't that you heal one point a round, it's that you cannot die from hp damage while the regeneration is active. It's still situational, but it's not red.Deathless is a thing.
Yes. It's also a separate 4th level spell. The metamagic applies to an ray spell, allows you to do the ray, and gives a better benefit. The duration isn't as good, but it has better action economy and the fringe benefit of giving you some healing as well, which will also halt any bleed damage.
As I said, it's situational. But I'd throw it at orange instead of red.
If you would like to cross reference with mine it is here.
I haven't worked on it in a while and probably wont anytime soon.
1) When I read the title, I read "A Guide to MetaGAMING". :-)
Boy was I disappointed when I realized the error.
2) A Heightened Continual Flame is the standard way to defeat Deeper Darkness. If it did not affect the spell's effect level, and thus DC, this would not work.
/cevah