Smite Evil + Magic Missile


Rules Questions

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Redneckdevil wrote:

To those who are using the "per damage roll", I have a question. when a paladin lvl 10 with zero str reg attacking with a falchion smite evil a target who's evil, would the damage roll be 2d4+10 or would it be (1d4+10)+(1d4+10) for the way to figure out damage?

I believe it's 2d4+10

True and a 5th level shocking grasp would do 5d6+10 but that is on one hit each. Magic missile isn't 1 hit it is up to 5 each dealing 1d4+1 thus the variance in how to apply it.


Agodeshalf wrote:
Except that you do gain damage dice, just at the rate of 2 for 1, and in the form of an extra missile or 2. I've seen arguments both ways, and I'm sure that many would see it as no, for precisely your stated reason. If it's 1 for 1, i.e. 1d6 per level everyone is fine, but state it as 1d6 for every 2 levels, and suddenly nope. Doesn't work that way. Seems a bit odd. Especially if you are going to state as some have in this very thread that its 5d4+5 damage per spell, so it damage dice based on level, and intensify should work. :)

No that is definitely not how that works. It is what is explicitly disallowed by the feat. There are not additional damage dice being added but additional missiles based on level. Since there us no expression for damage dice per level in the spell, it does nothing. A better example is Shocking Grasp, which is damage dice per value of caster levels with a maximum limit, and is therefore able to be intensified. To get the other interpretation is to explicitly ignore RAW and probably RAI for the feat. That straight does not read like that at all.

Redneckdevil wrote:

To those who are using the "per damage roll", I have a question. when a paladin lvl 10 with zero str reg attacking with a falchion smite evil a target who's evil, would the damage roll be 2d4+10 or would it be (1d4+10)+(1d4+10) for the way to figure out damage?

I believe it's 2d4+10

2d4+10, as it's only a single die roll, but simply rolled as 2d4. As pointed out earlier in this thread, the damage is also not added to any other additional dice roll values that are damage riders on the specific hit or missile or what have you. Only the dice from the missile or hit.


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Well think this weeks FAQ answers this one.

Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

Answered in FAQ

FAQ wrote:

Weapon Attacks and Special Abilities: Many places in the rules use the term “ranged weapon attacks” and similar terms, but how does this apply to spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, and extraordinary abilities (heretoafter called special abilities) that require ranged attacks but might not necessarily seem like weapons?

In general, special abilities that require attack rolls benefit and suffer from all modifiers affecting attack rolls even if those modifiers mention weapon attack rolls (such as the penalty for firing into melee, the bonus on attack rolls from Point-Blank Shot and inspire courage, and the like), unless the spell specifically calls out that it doesn’t apply them (for instance spiritual weapon calls out that it isn’t affected by feats and combat actions, but it would still have to deal with cover, and firing into melee if ranged).

When it comes to modifiers that affect weapon damage rolls, or simply “damage rolls” (such as the bonus on damage rolls from Point-Blank Shot, inspire courage, and smite evil), special abilities that deal damage on a successful attack roll, apply them on hit point damage only, and only once per casting or use, rather than once per attack. For instance, if a spell or special ability launched a dozen different ranged attacks simultaneously, only one (of the user’s choice) would receive bonus damage. This doesn’t apply on area effects with the rare potential for extraneous attack rolls, like fireball. However, there is a category of abilities that deserve a special note: Abilities like Arcane Strike that specifically enhance a character’s weapon or weapons themselves never apply to special abilities (with the exception of special abilities like the warlock’s mystic bolts that specifically call out that Arcane Strike applies).

In the same vein as abilities like Arcane Strike that affect a character’s weapons, abilities that say “with a weapon,” “with a melee weapon,” and “with a ranged weapon” almost never work with special abilities because such wording is almost always used as shorthand for “manufactured weapon,” “manufactured melee weapon,” and “manufactured ranged weapon.” The exception is abilities that deal damage when a creature touches or hits you in melee (for instance, the occultis’s energy ward focus power), which should also deal damage when a creature makes a melee touch attack against you but rarely call them out directly.
Certain special abilities (for instance rays, kinetic blasts, and mystic bolts) can specifically be selected with feats like Weapon Focus and Improved Critical. They still aren’t considered a type of weapon for other rules; they are not part of any weapon group and don’t qualify for the effects of fighter weapon training, warpriest sacred weapon, magus arcane pool, paladin divine bond, or any other such ability.
Abilities that modify the action usage of ranged weapon attacks or require their own special action almost never work with special abilities, since special abilities require their own actions. For instance, Pinpoint Targeting wouldn’t work with scorching ray or the soundstriker’s weird words because each of them requires its own action to activate and thus can’t be part of the feat’s specific standard action. Rare exceptions include mystic bolts and kinetic blade, which can specifically be used as part of other actions.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

OH! So THAT'S what that FAQ was about.

Paizo Employee Designer

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TriOmegaZero wrote:
OH! So THAT'S what that FAQ was about.

It's actually about this topic but managed to answer three other FAQ threads anyway (including this one).


Mark,

Does smite evil apply at all to magic missile? Smite evil does not specify needing to make an attack roll, so "...special abilities that deal damage on a successful attack roll..." does not seem to apply. But I'm unsure if the intent is to allow smite evil to work on damaging spells that do not require attack rolls. e.g, if it works for magic missile, smite evil should also work (against one target) for fireball, lightning bolt, or any other form of AoE hit point damage spell.

Paizo Employee Designer

bbangerter wrote:

Mark,

Does smite evil apply at all to magic missile? Smite evil does not specify needing to make an attack roll, so "...special abilities that deal damage on a successful attack roll..." does not seem to apply. But I'm unsure if the intent is to allow smite evil to work on damaging spells that do not require attack rolls. e.g, if it works for magic missile, it should also work (against one target) for fireball, lightning bolt, or any other form of AoE hit point damage spell.

The FAQ lists it as an example when restricting to special abilities that have attack rolls, so the FAQ answers that question (with a "no" answer).


Thanks for the clarification.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
I sincerely doubt this is going to be asked enough to warrant a FAQ. But I have been wrong before.

I was wronggggggggggggggg...

Paizo Employee Designer

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TriOmegaZero wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
I sincerely doubt this is going to be asked enough to warrant a FAQ. But I have been wrong before.
I was wronggggggggggggggg...

If it makes you feel better, it probably wouldn't have been answered yet if not for the other thread, though it certainly was asked more than either of us might have expected (believe it or not it has a second thread with 30+ clicks).

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