is this a bad idea?


Pathfinder Society

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Grand Lodge 2/5

Tempest_Knight wrote:

The miopic viewing of the Paladin Code bans a great number of LEGAL options...

I have a character that any Detect Evil using Paladin can't play with... Detects as evil... Based on the other PCs violating the Paladin Code is PvP arguments.

We play Pathfinder Society agents, they are our legitimate authority, and I run under a basic assumption that if the Society forces the association violation, the Society pays for the atonement... If the PC makes a choice that causes a violation, the PC foots the bill.

I've had multiple characters that detect as evil play with a paladin (in PFS play). There was some RP fun but we were able to set aside our differences to accomplish our goals.

And anyone that says that bring a "detects as evil" PC to a table with a paladin is against the "pvp rules" needs to learn to read.

Quote:

No Player-versus-Player Combat

The goal of Pathfinder Society Organized Play is to provide
an enjoyable experience for as many players as possible.
Player-versus-player conflict only sours a session. While
killing another character might seem like fun to you, it
certainly won’t be for the other character’s player. Even if
you feel that killing another PC is in character for your PC
at this particular moment, just figure out some other way
for your character to express herself. In short, you can never
voluntarily use your character to kill another character—
without their consent. Note that this does not apply to
situations where your character is mind-controlled by an
NPC and is forced by that NPC to attack a fellow Pathfinder.

Nothing in there even comes close to "detects as evil = pvp". Now it's definitely against the rules to try and force another player to commit an alignment infraction, but it is within the paladin's right to claim they're working with the "detects as evil" PC for the greater good. Any GM that claims them simply working together is enough for a paladin to fall needs to take it up with campaign management as that's an issue for them--and they haven't made any such claims so just players play their characters.

Shadow Lodge

Smite, no. Refuse to work for or with them, (except in the case of for the Greater Good, which doesn't apply here), yes. Likewise, a Paladin (or other good character), can not go on a wanton killing/raping/robbing/etc. . . spree, just because the Pathfinder Society says so. A Paladin's code is not beholden in any way to the Society, which is a secondary or tertiary affiliation.

PRD wrote:

Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act. <not a non-lawful one>

Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority <but not necessarily cave to it's will>, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
PRD wrote:
Lawful Good: A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.

You might be confusing the Paladin with a few other alignments. There is one that allows you to do whatever you want at the time. Another that lets you do what seems like a good idea at the time. Another that cares about their code and law and order above all, and is willing to do whatever it takes. But none of those are Lawful Good.

Now, I tend to agree with you, it basically does require a heavy dose of house ruling, sweeping things under the rug, and ignoring a great deal of the Organized Play Setting to make Paladins (and many good aligned classes with divine codes in their class) playable in PFS.

At most I just disagree with some of your ideas that one style of play is the wrong way and the other, that basically ignores a great deal of the point of the class is the right one. Or that the in game organization holds any kind of moral authority, (or even authority). The other main problem is that it's hard to justify, except by ignorance, that anything/one that the Pathfinder Society deals with is "a greater evil" than the Pathfinder Society itself. Even the Aspis Consortium, in reality, is just as dirty, selfish, and unscrupulous, and harmful to the rest of the world, they are just more open and honest about it.

Explore, Report, and especially Cooperate are not a one-way street that less moral characters can hide behind to make everyone else play their way. It's a two-way street, and everyone is just as equally responsible for not being a jerk.

The risk of falling and the need to pay for Atonements is hard coded into the class, and is not removed just because it's PFS play. It's still there, and is part of the balancing factor that sets the Paladin apart from other similar classes. Similar to the fact that you can't play a Paladin of a certain patron deities, (Asmodeus, Pharasma, C.C.), because their teachings do not line up with, even if similar in some ways, with what the Paladin represents.

Now, personally, I would rule that the Eidolon is still your character, so is also bound to the same rules as the other character, No Evil Allowed. (I'd also be a bit concerned why this idea would even really be desired. What benefit or fun can it possibly bring to the table? Even if not specifically PvP, how is the idea of playing a clearly antagonistic to the party character going to be fun for anyone, unless it's something that doesn't really come up outside of head canon or backstory. But in that case, it seems to be pretty clear that the idea itself is a bad one al around, so how does having it but not playing it make it better?)

claudekennilol wrote:

I've had multiple characters that detect as evil play with a paladin (in PFS play). There was some RP fun but we were able to set aside our differences to accomplish our goals.

And anyone that says that bring a "detects as evil" PC to a table with a paladin is against the "pvp rules" needs to learn to read.
Nothing in there even comes close to "detects as evil = pvp". Now it's definitely against the rules to try and force another player to commit an alignment infraction, but it is within the paladin's right to claim they're working with the "detects as evil" PC for the greater good. Any GM that claims them simply working together is enough for a paladin to fall needs to take it up with campaign management...

It's very worth noting that "detects as" is not the same things as "is" Evil. Between Infernal Healing, a few Domain Powers (outside the player's hands), and some specific things in Season 4 (most likely the case here), something normally doesn't Detect as Evil unless they are a pretty powerful agent of Evil, (an Evil Subtype Outsider, a Cleric or Anti-Paladin, someone that's sold their soul, an Undead, or an individual with 11+ HD). Otherwise it's at best no aura or a feint one. A feint aura could just as easily be a momentarily wicked thought for an otherwise non-evil individual or even the lingering aura from something in the recent past, (like say Infernal Healing that ended 1d6 rounds ago).

A Paladin is required to respect and honor the law, which means at least looking for more evidence and finding out the truth. But working for, or with an Evil subtype Outsider, Undead, or opposed Cleric/Anti-Paladin, or someone with a strong enough aura to register as distinctly Evil, that's a very different story.

Silver Crusade

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DM Beckett wrote:

Smite, no. Refuse to work for or with them, (except in the case of for the Greater Good, which doesn't apply here), yes.

...

Now, I tend to agree with you, it basically does require a heavy dose of house ruling, sweeping things under the rug, and ignoring a great deal of the Organized Play Setting to make Paladins (and many good aligned classes with divine codes in their class) playable in PFS.

As I said above, I completely disagree with this. Any paladin (or lawful good character) in the Pathfinder Society has obviously decided that supporting the Society is a way of helping the greater good, or they wouldn't have joined.

The Society may be neutral, but a lot of what it does helps keep ancient, powerful magic out of clearly evil hands. That would count as "greater good" by almost anyone's standards. Add in the existence of the Silver Crusade, which tries to move the Society more in the direction of being a good, rather than just neutral, organization, and you have plenty of justification for paladins and other good people to be Pathfinders. No house ruling or sweeping under the rug necessary, and that does explain why paladins in the Society will work with evil occasionally to advance the Society's goals. It really is for the greater good.

And again, we as players may have reason to believe that there may be some evil in the Decemvirate and wonder at their overall plans and goals, but most rank and file Pathfinders don't have access to that information. Heck, even among us players, it's mostly speculation, as far as I know. Do we have any proof of an evil Decemvirate member in any published source?

5/5 5/55/55/5

Playing through certain parts of the eyes of 10 will set the 10 to "smitable" for paladins of Ragathiel to Saranrae.

The Exchange

LazarX wrote:
teribithia9 wrote:

Unless they've updated the Advanced Player's Guide and changed the rules for Eidolons, you can't do this anyhow. The Eidolon is always the same alignment as the summoner.

"The eidolon forms a link with the summoner, who, forever after, summons an aspect of the same creature. An eidolon has the same alignment as the summoner that calls it and can speak all of his languages. "

UnChained! does change the rules for the Eidolon (and the Summoner)... Drastically. PFS now only allows the Unchained! version.

Ah-thanks. See that's what I get for being unemployed for six months. I'm way out of touch. :(

Silver Crusade

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Playing through certain parts of the eyes of 10 will set the 10 to "smitable" for paladins of Ragathiel to Saranrae.

I've played it, though it was long enough ago that I don't remember every detail.

Eyes of the Ten:
I could have sworn that the evil Decemvirate members you find out about are all dead. Of course, that might not stop them - they probably have some prestige built up. But still, there's no proof that the Decemvirate is still full of evil.

The Exchange 5/5

I figure the Society is much like the Hellknights/Cheliax...

Rank and file members will have a number of Lawful/Good persons - but as you go up in rank...

Silver Crusade 5/5

Fromper wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:

Smite, no. Refuse to work for or with them, (except in the case of for the Greater Good, which doesn't apply here), yes.

...

Now, I tend to agree with you, it basically does require a heavy dose of house ruling, sweeping things under the rug, and ignoring a great deal of the Organized Play Setting to make Paladins (and many good aligned classes with divine codes in their class) playable in PFS.

As I said above, I completely disagree with this. Any paladin (or lawful good character) in the Pathfinder Society has obviously decided that supporting the Society is a way of helping the greater good, or they wouldn't have joined.

The Society may be neutral, but a lot of what it does helps keep ancient, powerful magic out of clearly evil hands. That would count as "greater good" by almost anyone's standards. Add in the existence of the Silver Crusade, which tries to move the Society more in the direction of being a good, rather than just neutral, organization, and you have plenty of justification for paladins and other good people to be Pathfinders. No house ruling or sweeping under the rug necessary, and that does explain why paladins in the Society will work with evil occasionally to advance the Society's goals. It really is for the greater good.

And again, we as players may have reason to believe that there may be some evil in the Decemvirate and wonder at their overall plans and goals, but most rank and file Pathfinders don't have access to that information. Heck, even among us players, it's mostly speculation, as far as I know. Do we have any proof of an evil Decemvirate member in any published source?

Agreed.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Not so big spoilers, all Decemvirate members that ever get named sans one are at least suspicious. Some ranking named Hellknights at least are good. Maidrayne Vox, Mistress of Blades of the Nail, for instance. Also a centaur!

Silver Crusade

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DM Beckett wrote:
How does your Paladin feel about the Society ... hoarding all kinds of dark books, items, relics, artifacts, etc in one big place run by an evil temptress with a taste for blasphemous porn that seems extremely likely to fall into the enemies hands rather soon?

My paladin of Shelyn believes that the only blasphemous pornography is that which the artist did not put in their greatest effort into creating.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

"Among the paintings on the wall is a rather blasphemous portrait of
Sarenrae in a compromising position with two succubi."

I mean, sex: yay, but sex with with a combination of Qlippoth experiments into reality's essence and sex-gone-wrong damned mortal soul: noooooo

1/5 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The Fox wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
How does your Paladin feel about the Society ... hoarding all kinds of dark books, items, relics, artifacts, etc in one big place run by an evil temptress with a taste for blasphemous porn that seems extremely likely to fall into the enemies hands rather soon?
My paladin of Shelyn believes that the only blasphemous pornography is that which the artist did not put in their greatest effort into creating.

My bard who follows Shelyn actually has improved his Diplomacy rolls in two situations because he could see artwork in progress and when the person they were talking to stopped the pained expression on his face at 'stopping art' was exceptionally persuasive.

That and the 'Oh, please, go back to that, talk to me when you're done, Shelyn would hate me forever if I stopped you in your inspiration.' probably didn't hurt either.

Separate point, equally important. If the artwork is exceptionally good, does it become a holy relic, even if some faiths would argue it's very... unholy?

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
The Fox wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
How does your Paladin feel about the Society ... hoarding all kinds of dark books, items, relics, artifacts, etc in one big place run by an evil temptress with a taste for blasphemous porn that seems extremely likely to fall into the enemies hands rather soon?
My paladin of Shelyn believes that the only blasphemous pornography is that which the artist did not put in their greatest effort into creating.

My bard who follows Shelyn actually has improved his Diplomacy rolls in two situations because he could see artwork in progress and when the person they were talking to stopped the pained expression on his face at 'stopping art' was exceptionally persuasive.

That and the 'Oh, please, go back to that, talk to me when you're done, Shelyn would hate me forever if I stopped you in your inspiration.' probably didn't hurt either.

Separate point, equally important. If the artwork is exceptionally good, does it become a holy relic, even if some faiths would argue it's very... unholy?

I dunno. I am still trying to figure out what would be considered blasphemous porn for Calistria....

The Exchange 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
kinevon wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
The Fox wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
How does your Paladin feel about the Society ... hoarding all kinds of dark books, items, relics, artifacts, etc in one big place run by an evil temptress with a taste for blasphemous porn that seems extremely likely to fall into the enemies hands rather soon?
My paladin of Shelyn believes that the only blasphemous pornography is that which the artist did not put in their greatest effort into creating.

My bard who follows Shelyn actually has improved his Diplomacy rolls in two situations because he could see artwork in progress and when the person they were talking to stopped the pained expression on his face at 'stopping art' was exceptionally persuasive.

That and the 'Oh, please, go back to that, talk to me when you're done, Shelyn would hate me forever if I stopped you in your inspiration.' probably didn't hurt either.

Separate point, equally important. If the artwork is exceptionally good, does it become a holy relic, even if some faiths would argue it's very... unholy?

I dunno. I am still trying to figure out what would be considered blasphemous porn for Calistria....

Gilligan's Island?

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
nosig wrote:
kinevon wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
The Fox wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
How does your Paladin feel about the Society ... hoarding all kinds of dark books, items, relics, artifacts, etc in one big place run by an evil temptress with a taste for blasphemous porn that seems extremely likely to fall into the enemies hands rather soon?
My paladin of Shelyn believes that the only blasphemous pornography is that which the artist did not put in their greatest effort into creating.

My bard who follows Shelyn actually has improved his Diplomacy rolls in two situations because he could see artwork in progress and when the person they were talking to stopped the pained expression on his face at 'stopping art' was exceptionally persuasive.

That and the 'Oh, please, go back to that, talk to me when you're done, Shelyn would hate me forever if I stopped you in your inspiration.' probably didn't hurt either.

Separate point, equally important. If the artwork is exceptionally good, does it become a holy relic, even if some faiths would argue it's very... unholy?

I dunno. I am still trying to figure out what would be considered blasphemous porn for Calistria....

Gilligan's Island?

Goongala goongala

4/5

Blasphemous porn for Calistria... don't click on this link!

Silver Crusade

Niemand wrote:
Blasphemous porn for Calistria... don't click on this link!

MY EYES MY EYES....MY EARS MY EARS!!

1/5 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

*followed the advice and didn't click and isn't curious because never know what evil lurks in the url-spoilers of dark hooded men...


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Niemand wrote:
Blasphemous porn for Calistria... don't click on this link!

Is it a rick roll? A kitten? I sort of want to know but not enough to click the link.

Grand Lodge

Jessex wrote:
Niemand wrote:
Blasphemous porn for Calistria... don't click on this link!
Is it a rick roll? A kitten? I sort of want to know but not enough to click the link.

No it is soooooo much worse.

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