Why would Charon, Urgathoa, Zon-Kuthon, Baalzebul, and Asmodeus give up their souls


Advice


In my campaign I need Charon, Urgathoa, Zon-Kuthon, Baalzebul, and Asmodeus to give up their souls to create a new powerful god but they would die in the process. What would make them do this


Well... lessee...

Charon would give up his soul to cause more death.

Urgathoa to spread disease.

Zon-Kuthon to spread more pain.

Baalzebul to create more deception.

Asmodeus to eradicate free will.

My best guess? To create the ultimate incarnation of evil that would be able to turn the multiverse into a hellscape.

Sovereign Court

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Asmodeus would never do this: him and his brother are the first two gods and they created the rest of the multiverse together... (in effect, all other gods are 'their children', and were birthed from their essence...)

He killed his brother for way less... he would never, ever dilute his essence or let himself be transformed/subsumed/changed by the other 'lesser' deities... even if he's drunk or temporarily stupid, I don't even think he could... all of the other 'god souls' would just float into him and make him bigger........ (please refer to the creation myth in this book)

Liberty's Edge

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An emissary of the To Be ultimate Evil god told each of these that the result of this combined death will be them but immensely more powerful.

It might be a lie.


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I can't imagine any God willingly doing that, which of course means force :-)

Good luck.


Asmodeus could force Baalzebul (who's only a demigod, and is Asmodeus' subordinate) to do it, but otherwise...

I can't think of any cause that Urgathoa would sacrifice herself for. She is her own highest cause, and would prioritize her own continued existence over anything else.

Charon (who's also only a demigod) wants to end all life in the universe, but he also wants to turn out the lights.

Asmodeus is a pathological liar and isn't even the oldest god. That being said, I could see Asmodeus sacrificing himself as a last resort to stop some threat that could, say, unravel reality. Asmodeus wants the universe to be a much worse place, but he still wants it around. He feels it belongs to him, after all. But he'd much rather sacrifice everyone else first.

Zon-Kuthon is the most likely candidate to actually do something like this, and to initiate it in the first place - Zon-Kuthon believes that only through suffering can enlightenment be obtained, and thus he has a duty to spread as much suffering as possible.

Zon-Kuthon forcing multiple kyton demiurges (demigod-class kytons) to merge with him into some sort of ultra-kyton god that can casually condemn and reshape the populations of entire worlds strikes me as something he'd actually do, if he deemed it necessary.


Feelings unknown and alien to such beings as these, like desperation & fear. It's all a question of motivation, but the reason better be a good one.


Valafar The Black wrote:
In my campaign I need Charon, Urgathoa, Zon-Kuthon, Baalzebul, and Asmodeus to give up their souls to create a new powerful god but they would die in the process. What would make them do this

War? One or more of them or one or more of their followers create a weapon to serve their own evil aims, but it gets away from them and now endangers the multiverse.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Valafar The Black wrote:
In my campaign I need Charon, Urgathoa, Zon-Kuthon, Baalzebul, and Asmodeus to give up their souls to create a new powerful god but they would die in the process. What would make them do this

This is about as plausible as Missy becoming "Good".


Outsiders don't have souls, that's why they can't be resurrected. In return they are immortal.


You say "Give up their souls", not die, pass from existence, etc. That wording is the key to this whole scenario playing out. I'd say that they each have an on-going role in the new deity. Something like a hydra, multiple heads different goals but one being and each with more power then they had separately.


Adagna wrote:
You say "Give up their souls", not die, pass from existence, etc. That wording is the key to this whole scenario playing out. I'd say that they each have an on-going role in the new deity. Something like a hydra, multiple heads different goals but one being and each with more power then they had separately.

I am thinking like more of a fusion in steven universe a process that combines everyone's powers and personalities into one person. This makes a whole new personality.


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Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Asmodeus would never do this: him and his brother are the first two gods and they created the rest of the multiverse together... (in effect, all other gods are 'their children', and were birthed from their essence...)

He killed his brother for way less... he would never, ever dilute his essence or let himself be transformed/subsumed/changed by the other 'lesser' deities... even if he's drunk or temporarily stupid, I don't even think he could... all of the other 'god souls' would just float into him and make him bigger........ (please refer to the creation myth in this book)

Just to clarify for you, you don't know this is simply the creation myth perpetuated by Asmodeus. It is almost certainly false considering other things that we know about Golarion's cosmology.

But I do agree with you that Asmodeus would never do this.

Hell, it took Rovagug almost destroying Golarion to get the good and evil gods to work together to defeat him. But the Gods still were not on that noble sacrifice train in terms of letting themselves die to stop him.

About the only way I can see this working at all, is something killing the gods and stealing their portfolio.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

The only reason they'd ever do this is if the entire multiverse is being threatened. But Asmodeous is one of the most intelligent beings in the entire multiverse. He would come up with a better solution than that. The only reason he'd go along with it is if the destruction of the multiverse is too impending to come up with a better idea.


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Cyrad wrote:
The only reason they'd ever do this is if the entire multiverse is being threatened. But Asmodeous is one of the most intelligent beings in the entire multiverse. He would come up with a better solution than that. The only reason he'd go along with it is if the destruction of the multiverse is too impending to come up with a better idea.

Even then, I can't see it. Charon would probably be pretty happy with that outcome, while Urgathoa would just try to run away as far as possible. She doesn't strike me as the type who is into self-sacrifice, based on her portfolio and background.


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Maybe it's all a scheme by Asmodeus to gain their power?


Though why would Asmodeus risk losing his identity in said fusion? Then again, he IS arrogant and might underestimate the gods involved.


Barathos wrote:
Maybe it's all a scheme by Asmodeus to gain their power?

and it would fail


With the personalities as-written, I honestly don't believe this would ever happen. It would be one thing if the deities were gods of good, and truly believed that their sacrifice was necessary - but evil deities, who actively oppose each other and have completely separate ideas of what evil should be? No. Asmodeus would not give himself up to create a "more evil" deity of NE or CE, and probably not for LE, either, given his basic goal is "make everyone bow to me and acknowledge I was right".

Evil deities are fundamentally self-centered that way. Any plot in which this scenario happens is basically hand-waving their actual personalities away. (Which isn't necessarily a bad thing - gods are basically plot devices that can be used however your game requires, after all. Just note that it's a pretty big change from how they normally are.)

The most probable scenario I can imagine is force - some kind of Overgod forcing them to do it for reasons that might not ever be revealed.


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Urgathoa became the goddess of undeads in virtue of being the first creature on golarion who refused to give up on her material self, no way she would do that


GM Rednal wrote:

With the personalities as-written, I honestly don't believe this would ever happen. It would be one thing if the deities were gods of good, and truly believed that their sacrifice was necessary - but evil deities, who actively oppose each other and have completely separate ideas of what evil should be? No. Asmodeus would not give himself up to create a "more evil" deity of NE or CE, and probably not for LE, either, given his basic goal is "make everyone bow to me and acknowledge I was right".

Evil deities are fundamentally self-centered that way. Any plot in which this scenario happens is basically hand-waving their actual personalities away. (Which isn't necessarily a bad thing - gods are basically plot devices that can be used however your game requires, after all. Just note that it's a pretty big change from how they normally are.)

The most probable scenario I can imagine is force - some kind of Overgod forcing them to do it for reasons that might not ever be revealed.

What if Rovagug was released and they were the only gods left to stop it

Dark Archive

Pathfinder LO Special Edition, PF Special Edition Subscriber

TO: Valafar The Black

A quick glance over your posts since you started in September, wow is some of your ideas really out there. I mean great imagination and coming up with some interesting stuff, but i gotta ask what kind of game are you playing? there's a lot of things that just look like things were thrown into the blender or you saw 10 cool monsters and wanted to make a player character out of a combination of all of them.

On the side of your question, with how the Golarion Multiverse is set up i couldn't see any of them really doing this and even if they tried all the good deities would step in to stop them, this convergence of all the evil deities and demon lords would throw off the balance of power between the gods so much that no one wins in the end.


Valafar The Black wrote:
What if Rovagug was released and they were the only gods left to stop it

You would need to come up with a detailed story about how Rovagug was released.

Asmodeus himself holds the only key to Rovagug's prison. There is no other way to release him (to my knowledge). And he's been in there for thousands of years, if there is a way no one has successfully used it.

Why? Because even evil gods like existing and like there being a universe for them to bend and warp. Rovagug wants to destroy everything. To unmake everything.

Even most evil deities are against that since it would leave them dead and without any play things.

So you would have to have a group who wanted to free Rovagug, but somehow wasn't defeated by literally everyone else in the universe.


If that was the case, he would be literally the only deity left in the setting.

So... congratulations, he wins and reality is reshaped to his desires because there's nobody left to oppose him? (Unless you start writing in some kind of resistance plot, maybe with a reset of reality or the birth of a new pantheon or something...)

What's this deity's place in the game, anyway? Player character, background material, climactic game event...?


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Reexamine your premise to see what you actually want. Forcing out of character behavior for the sake of your plot just creates plot holes and can result in a villain sue. Urgathoa is the goddess of not-dying-no-matter-what-it-takes. Most of the others have strong reasons for not doing it, but it's outright antithetical to who she is as a goddess.

If you just need a super-deity of evil, Zon-Kuthon, Lamashtu, and Norgorber could all have convincing reasons for doing it. (Zon to usher in more pain than he could bring himself, Lamashtu out of twisted motherly love, and Norgorber because nobody knows what his actual goals are.)

That's just a suggestion, though- ultimately it's your campaign, and there are some suggested motives here already.


GM Rednal wrote:

If that was the case, he would be literally the only deity left in the setting.

So... congratulations, he wins and reality is reshaped to his desires because there's nobody left to oppose him? (Unless you start writing in some kind of resistance plot, maybe with a reset of reality or the birth of a new pantheon or something...)

What's this deity's place in the game, anyway? Player character, background material, climactic game event...?

I think you're forgetting that it took EVERY GOD EVER to fight and hold back Rovagug. This deity would NOT be the strongest one around.


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Icyshadow wrote:
GM Rednal wrote:

If that was the case, he would be literally the only deity left in the setting.

So... congratulations, he wins and reality is reshaped to his desires because there's nobody left to oppose him? (Unless you start writing in some kind of resistance plot, maybe with a reset of reality or the birth of a new pantheon or something...)

What's this deity's place in the game, anyway? Player character, background material, climactic game event...?

I think you're forgetting that it took EVERY GOD EVER to fight and hold back Rovagug. This deity would NOT be the strongest one around.

Nope- they didn't all participate. Most notably Pharasma did not, and has actually been confirmed as being stronger than Rovagug. (She just didn't have a reason to get involved.)


My point was that this fused deity would still be outmatched by a chosen few, like Rovagug and Pharasma, possibly Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth as well.

Sczarni

It makes no sense really. They wouldn't do it. Not even for their own principles, they wouldn't do it. Creating a new god might also push entire world into slow and steady chaos. What god-like council would opt for that? Even if it's a last option they are willing to take, they wouldn't do it.


GM Rednal wrote:

If that was the case, he would be literally the only deity left in the setting.

So... congratulations, he wins and reality is reshaped to his desires because there's nobody left to oppose him? (Unless you start writing in some kind of resistance plot, maybe with a reset of reality or the birth of a new pantheon or something...)

What's this deity's place in the game, anyway? Player character, background material, climactic game event...?

It changes the world. The dead begin to rise Rovagug is set free and town and kingdoms are like a city of theives


Valafar The Black wrote:
GM Rednal wrote:

If that was the case, he would be literally the only deity left in the setting.

So... congratulations, he wins and reality is reshaped to his desires because there's nobody left to oppose him? (Unless you start writing in some kind of resistance plot, maybe with a reset of reality or the birth of a new pantheon or something...)

What's this deity's place in the game, anyway? Player character, background material, climactic game event...?

It changes the world. The dead begin to rise Rovagug is set free and town and kingdoms are like a city of theives

Pulling Rovagug out probably isn't necessary. The rest you can pull off a little more locally with Tar-Baphon, the Whispering Tyrant, getting free, or something along those lines. Cultists of Urgathoa have been given instructions on how to open rifts to the Negative Energy Plane during some cosmological event? Set your campaign in the Age of Darkness following Aroden's death (a little Wiki reading there might help). Again, just alternate ways to approach the problem that are more manageable by PCs.

If you want to use your version, I'd have Norgorber track them into it for his own ends- perhaps a way to secure his position in a new world. He's the only one I could see with a chance of tricking the others, and they wouldn't do it if they knew they'd die.


Valafar The Black wrote:
It changes the world. The dead begin to rise Rovagug is set free and town and kingdoms are like a city of theives

There wouldn't BE any towns or cities if Rovagug is set free. He's not a generic god of evil, he's a god of destruction. He doesn't care about zombies, thieves, or what anybody does. He just wants to see everything destroyed, and is powerful enough to make that happen.


if you need some new evil overgod, how about just invent a new one? Maybe your god is the thing Zon Kuthon ran into when venturing beyond the known portions of the Great Beyond? Maybe it's the ACTUAL fifth Horseman? Whatever originally laired in Hell before the devils showeded up. Some Rovagug-level nightmare from the deepest layers of the Abyss. Plenty of ways to add in a new powerful god while not abandoning cannon completely.


Valafar The Black wrote:
GM Rednal wrote:

If that was the case, he would be literally the only deity left in the setting.

So... congratulations, he wins and reality is reshaped to his desires because there's nobody left to oppose him? (Unless you start writing in some kind of resistance plot, maybe with a reset of reality or the birth of a new pantheon or something...)

What's this deity's place in the game, anyway? Player character, background material, climactic game event...?

It changes the world. The dead begin to rise Rovagug is set free and town and kingdoms are like a city of theives

I get the feeling you don't understand enough of the setting of Golarion before you are going about trying to change it.

If Rovagug is free there will be no zombies. No cities. Nothing. He will destroy everything, that is his sole desire and purpose.

It is uncertain how long it would take him to destroy Golarion, but short of the gods allying again they could not contain him. And if you really had Asmodeus die then there would be no jailer to lock him up this time.

If you want a crazy powerful evil deity just use Rovagug, no reason to create a new one.

If you want a mysterious deity who's power isn't understood use Groetus.

Sovereign Court

My master would never do such a thing!


The gods' powers are already about limitless (they're not like the greek gods, unlike the demigods), I don't think you could temp them. And there is no way that Asmodeus wouldn't be able to find a loop-hole to be the winning party in a deal like this, or he would never accept it.
Trying to step above all those gods seems like a "true ultimate power" complex, while each one of them should serve the purpose of what you want good enough.

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