Durable Ammunition other then arrows debate


Pathfinder Society

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Silver Crusade 5/5

Well, at least you guys can agree on something...

Shadow Lodge 5/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.

No we can't.

Silver Crusade 5/5

TOZ wrote:
No we can't.

Well played, Mr. TOZ. Well played...

The Exchange 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

This whole thread reminds me of the take 10 threads... It even has many of the same actors.

it's a little depressing actually.

Moving on now.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

That is generally how a community works. You see the same people participating each time.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

2 people marked this as a favorite.
nosig wrote:

This whole thread reminds me of the take 10 threads... It even has many of the same actors.

it's a little depressing actually.

Moving on now.

Apple pie reminds you of the take 10 threads... :)

The Exchange 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
BigNorseWolf wrote:
nosig wrote:

This whole thread reminds me of the take 10 threads... It even has many of the same actors.

it's a little depressing actually.

Moving on now.

Apple pie reminds you of the take 10 threads... :)

nah, people arguing about apple pie, and if you could cut a pie into 6 pieces or 7, that would remind me of the Take 10 threads... (esp. when it is common sense to see it's 3.14159 pieces...).

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

1 person marked this as a favorite.
nosig wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
nosig wrote:

This whole thread reminds me of the take 10 threads... It even has many of the same actors.

it's a little depressing actually.

Moving on now.

Apple pie reminds you of the take 10 threads... :)

nah, people arguing about apple pie, and if you could cut a pie into 6 pieces or 7, that would remind me of the Take 10 threads... (esp. when it is common sense to see it's 3.14159 pieces...).

Unless you are a pirate's parrot, then it is pieces of eight, obviously.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

1 person marked this as a favorite.

A pie is always pieces of ate

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

26 people marked this as a favorite.

The alchemical ammunition on pages 20–21 of Pathfinder Player Companion: Alchemy Manual allow for other piercing ammunition at the same cost (e.g. durable crossbow bolts or pheromone shuriken).

Use the same cost as is listed for an arrow; the price of a shuriken or crossbow bolt is slightly different than that of an arrow, but for this purpose the difference of a silver piece here or a few coppers there is not worth the cost to the game experience. If the base ammunition would cost at least 1 gp per unit (as is the case for the atlatl dart from Ultimate Equipment), simply add that cost to that of the alchemical treatment. For example, a durable atlatl dart costs 2 gp, not 1 gp.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I’m speaking to everyone when I say please be mindful of how you treat your fellow roleplayers. It can be really easy to get caught up in a particular stance, become flustered, and watch your argument veer into the territory of impoliteness. Help us promote a positive community.

If it’s reaching the point where that’s happening and nobody from the Pathfinder Society team has stepped in to offer some clarification, remember that you can signal any of us by email. I also tend to check my private message log on the Paizo messageboards fairly frequently. Provide whomever you send it to a quick summary of what’s happening in the thread and a link to an especially representative posts that support either side. In case one of us is not already following the thread, that helps catch us up to speed, though we’ll still do some of our own research.

Footnote:
I acknowledge that my track record of providing clarification on questions is spotty, whether that’s because a question got lost in the shuffle, stalled out while waiting for somebody else to provide input, or had to be set aside during an especially heavy load of assignments. With an expanded team, the odds are getting better of any given question being answered.

The Exchange 5/5

John Compton wrote:

The alchemical ammunition on pages 20–21 of Pathfinder Player Companion: Alchemy Manual allow for other piercing ammunition at the same cost (e.g. durable crossbow bolts or pheromone shuriken).

Use the same cost as is listed for an arrow; the price of a shuriken or crossbow bolt is slightly different than that of an arrow, but for this purpose the difference of a silver piece here or a few coppers there is not worth the cost to the game experience. If the base ammunition would cost at least 1 gp per unit (as is the case for the atlatl dart from Ultimate Equipment), simply add that cost to that of the alchemical treatment. For example, a durable atlatl dart costs 2 gp, not 1 gp.

thank you sir!

for the record, I didn't have a horse in this race. But perhaps I will look more into crafting ammo with my Alchemists in the future... Raining Arrow Darts looks like fun...

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Thanks for the clarification John!

Now I can buy durable crossbow bolts for my crossbow Ranger! Yeah!

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Thanks John, it is very nice to finally have a firm ruling on this ^^

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

John Compton wrote:


** spoiler omitted **

Actually between the recent trend of you stepping in to clarify rules options, and Lynda (sp?) stepping in to errata scenarios and chronicle sheets, I have been very favorably impressed by the improved responses since the start of season 7.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

W00t! Thank you, John!

Dark Archive 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Minnesota—Minneapolis aka Silbeg

John Compton wrote:

The alchemical ammunition on pages 20–21 of Pathfinder Player Companion: Alchemy Manual allow for other piercing ammunition at the same cost (e.g. durable crossbow bolts or pheromone shuriken).

Use the same cost as is listed for an arrow; the price of a shuriken or crossbow bolt is slightly different than that of an arrow, but for this purpose the difference of a silver piece here or a few coppers there is not worth the cost to the game experience. If the base ammunition would cost at least 1 gp per unit (as is the case for the atlatl dart from Ultimate Equipment), simply add that cost to that of the alchemical treatment. For example, a durable atlatl dart costs 2 gp, not 1 gp.

John, could we get this added to the PFS Clarification document, please?

Far better there, than having to search the forums!

Thanks!

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

John Compton wrote:

The alchemical ammunition on pages 20–21 of Pathfinder Player Companion: Alchemy Manual allow for other piercing ammunition at the same cost (e.g. durable crossbow bolts or pheromone shuriken).

Please excuse the threadromancy, but does this also apply to the alchemical ammo elsewhere? I mean pheremone shruiken are nice but alchemist fire shuriken would be nice too (alchemical bolt, adventurers armory 2)

5/5 Venture-Agent, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Azothath

Matthew Morris wrote:
John Compton wrote:

The alchemical ammunition on pages 20–21 of Pathfinder Player Companion: Alchemy Manual allow for other piercing ammunition at the same cost (e.g. durable crossbow bolts or pheromone shuriken).

Please excuse the threadromancy, but does this also apply to the alchemical ammo elsewhere? I mean pheremone shruiken are nice but alchemist fire shuriken would be nice too (alchemical bolt, adventurers armory 2)

Currently MANY links are broken on the Paizo website.

Cmpgn Clar addresses AlcmMan ammo(see spoiler), I've included AdvArmry for completeness as it does not.

Campaign Clarifications, June 2019:

Pathfinder Player Companion: Adventurer's Armory pub 2011

Page 4—Change the last sentence of the scorpion whip's description to the following, "If you are proficient with both scorpion whips and whips, you can use a scorpion whip in either the normal way, as a typical light performance weapon, or as a whip. When you use a scorpion whip as a whip, it is otherwise equivalent to a whip, but it deals lethal damage and can harm creatures regardless of their armor bonus."

Page 8—A wrist sheath or spring-loaded wrist sheath can hold one forearm-length item. In addition to the listed examples, wrist sheaths can be used to store and deploy potions and scrolls. They cannot hold rods.

Inside Back Cover—replace "disarm, reach, trip" in the scorpion whip's Special entry with "performance".

Pathfinder Player Companion: Adventurer's Armory 2 pub 2017

Page 7—Characters cannot wear double-plated armor if the armor's maximum Dexterity bonus would be less than 0.

Page 8—Remove the following sentence from the description of orc hornbow: "Any effects that apply to both longbows and shortbows also apply to hornbows."

Page 10—If ammunition with jagged hooks does not have a critical multiplier of its own, use the critical multiplier of the weapon that fired the ammunition to determine the hooks' effect.

Page 12—Replace the last sentence of the dusk lantern with the following. "When a dusk lantern is shedding red light, creatures who are 10 feet away from the edge of the light's area must succeed at a DC 10 Perception check to notice the presence of the light. The DC increases by 1 for every 10 feet between the creature and the light. Creatures with darkvision take a -5 penalty on this Perception check.

Page 20—Sparring gear counts as armor for the purposes of abilities that are dependent upon wearing armor or not wearing armor, such as a monk's AC bonus.

Page 21—The aid another bonus that the allied cloak spell provides is always +2.

Page 24—A gloomstick is a nonmagical light source. When determining its interactions with various light and darkness effects, note that its darkness is equivalently powerful to the light a sunrod produces.

Page 25—The choking smoke smokestick trick references "any bonuses you add to dirty trick combat maneuvers." This refers to bonuses that you add exclusively to dirty trick combat maneuvers, not bonuses like your Strength bonus or a bonus on all combat maneuvers checks.
Pathfinder Player Companion: Agents of Evil

Page 29—Ioun spite bracers do not function for cracked and flawed ioun stones.

Pathfinder Player Companion: Alchemy Manual pub 2014

Pages 20 and 21—You may purchase other types of ammunition with the properties of any of the arrows listed on these pages. The ammunition costs the same as the arrow, unless the base cost of one unit of the ammunition costs 1 gp or more—in that case, add the cost of one unit of ammunition to the listed cost for the arrow.
Pathfinder Player Companion: Animal Archive

Inside Front Cover—The available slots for piscine creatures are belt (saddle), chest, and eyes.

Page 11—Tumor familiars cannot take the protector archetype.

Page 19—Replace the first sentence of the Spell Sponge feat with "Whenever your master targets you with a spell with the range of personal, the spell's duration is doubled as if modified by the Extend Spell metamagic feat."

Page 20—In the charger archetype's mounted challenge, replace the sentence "This ability replaces share spells" with "The cavalier's mount only gains half the listed number of bonus tricks (minimum 0)."

Page 26—The saddle of the sky river occupies a creature's belt slot.

with John Compton's direction (above) that should cover many types of piercing ammunition for AlcmMan. Adv Armry was an earlier release.

Addt'l Res, June 2019:

Pathfinder Player Companion: Adventurer's Armory **

Only the 2nd printing of this book or the 1st printing augmented by the current errata (released 7/21/11) are legal for play in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.

Everything in this book is legal for play with the following exceptions: a pseudodragon is not legal for purchase unless you're a wizard with the Improved Familiar feat, elephants are never legal for play, and armored kilts are not legal. As of June 10, 2016, slaves are no longer available for purchase. A PC can only purchase an animal, mount, or similar creature if its Challenge Rating is lower than that character's level; creatures with a Challenge Rating of 1 or lower are exempt from this restriction, as are horses.

Pathfinder Player Companion: Adventurer's Armory 2 **

Equipment: The equipment and magic items in this book is legal for play except the butchering axe, invisible enemies kit, orc hornbow, spring loaded scroll case, sunsilver dancer's garb, sunsilver, and waveblade. The elemental explorer's kit always costs 2,700 gp. The example masterwork tools on page 19 are all legal for play and do not represent an exhaustive list of such tools; note that most tools for Knowledge checks (e.g. Pathfinder Chronicles) typically take at least 1d4 rounds to consult and use. The typical improvised weapons sidebar presents good guidelines for such weapons except when a specific item provides more specific rules. Drinking multiple concoctions does activate the concoction miscibility table on page 27. Singing steel armor, shields, and weapons are legal for play, but other items made of singing steel are not. Equipment Tricks: The equipment tricks in this book are legal for play except captivating embrace, ladder lock, smoke strike, and telltale reflection. Feats: The feats in this book are legal for play except Craft Poppet and Modification Master. Spells: The spells in this book are legal for play. Traits: The traits in this book are legal for play except amiable briber and well-provisioned adventurer. Misc.: The armor modifications and weapon modifications in this book are legal for play except nimble and versatile design. GMs can use the expanded improvised weapons qualities list as guidelines for adjudicating improvised weapons.


I'll presume you mean alchemical fire bolt.

IF it is an accepted(legal) option within the accepted pages of the resources (I haven't checked the resources directly), and given John's statement, you should be okay. I don't think a lot of GMs are up to date on this corner case thus you will experience some table variation on upgraded ammo types from Advtr Armry 1 & 2. So don't rely on ammo from this book but take it as a GM 'extra' that most GM's will accept after referencing the applicable authoritative statements. Just remember that the burden of proof for corner cases is on the player.

note: scroll of Flame Arrow 3@5 $375.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Wow, thank you for all the legwork on that post.

I think I'll just buy a couple for emergencies and 'expect table variation'. My local group will be happy if my vigilante throws things besides Matarangs anyway. :-)


Does this mean durable adamantine arrows are legal for play?

If so, that's a great cheap way to bypass a lot of stuff's hardness. Dig through solid rock with an arrow!

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

JDLPF wrote:

Does this mean durable adamantine arrows are legal for play?

If so, that's a great cheap way to bypass a lot of stuff's hardness. Dig through solid rock with an arrow!

Ineffective Weapons: Certain weapons just can’t effectively deal damage to certain objects. Likewise, most melee weapons have little effect on stone walls and doors, unless they are designed for breaking up stone, such as a pick or hammer.


Locked door? Locked chest? Locked manacles? Forget ranks in Disable Device, just jam a durable adamantine arrow into the lock and wiggle it around!

Liberty's Edge 1/5

Would it be possible to get adamantine lockpicks, I wonder...

Liberty's Edge 3/5 Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

Ikilwa Underfoot wrote:
Would it be possible to get adamantine lockpicks, I wonder...

I don't believe you can. The adamanite rules only cover weapons and armor.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver aka roll4initiative

Robert Hetherington wrote:
JDLPF wrote:

Does this mean durable adamantine arrows are legal for play?

If so, that's a great cheap way to bypass a lot of stuff's hardness. Dig through solid rock with an arrow!

Ineffective Weapons: Certain weapons just can’t effectively deal damage to certain objects. Likewise, most melee weapons have little effect on stone walls and doors, unless they are designed for breaking up stone, such as a pick or hammer.

So, are regular adamantine arrows legal for play? I assume they are, but, can they be used to take down a stone construct then?

Years ago (2013?) when I GMd a Very Difficult "Enter at Your Own Risk" scenario at a con, a player used adamantine arrows to take out the first construct. (I knew he had read the scenario beforehand seeing he had pretty much everything at his disposal to combat each encounter).

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