"Optional" feats


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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We created a list of Supporting Feats and allow characters to select one at level 1 and every even level after that beginning at level 2.


HWalsh wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
nemophles wrote:
I'm not suggesting combat isn't a big part of the game. The question being asked and the rhetoric being used is about characters "staying competitive in combat". Are you going to deny that GMs plan encounters with the PCs combat capacities in mind?

Yes!

It's far too much work for me to bother referencing the party beyond their level and number of members when planning encounters.

I'm just going to say GM'ing is an art form.

We're 100% in agreement on this point.

The difference- it seems- is I view my responsibility as a GM is to roleplay the world. My job is to be the player who handles the world and what it does [both Active progress towards the myriad of things of meaning going on in the world with or without the party, and Reactions to the party], not to spend hours customizing the nature of the encounters characters come into contact with.

Kyrt - The game world only exists for your players. The game world, and everything in it, revolves around them. They are the stars, the heroes, the future legends.

Anything that happens that doesn't impact them, affect them, or challenge them simply doesn't matter.

While this discussion seems like topic drift, it ties right back into the topic of mandatory feats. The feats that seem mandatory are the ones that give immediate utility to save the character. "That creature's DR 10 is driving me crazy. I will never win at this rate of damage. If only I had Power Attack!"

But what if the danger is more subtle? The GM has to roleplay the world to see the subtle influence around the characters. One of my favorite scenes in GMing Jade Regent (warning: lengthy post with a few spoilers) was when the party in disguise infiltrated a meeting of a hundred and thirty oni enemies. They overheard the speaker talking about the party, how the enemy was careless about a minor band of heroes and fooled into not looking at them more closely, and then caught off guard and only now realized the true danger. The party had done that deliberately and I had carefully roleplayed how their enemy would be fooled. Now I was giving them feedback to acknowledge the success that they could not see directly and to warn them that their subterfuge was over. (Then the party killed most of the oni and kidnapped the speaker to make a secret deal to betray the oni high command. I didn't expect that. They are great players.)

If the enemy does not acknowledge the party or even the possibility of good guys stopping them until the party breaks down their door, then combat will be heart and soul of the campaign. Go for Power Attack and Rapid Shot and Combat Casting because they give advantage there. But if the enemy posts guards at the door in case some good guys do show up, then perhaps Stealthy or Athletic is the way to go. Perhaps the enemy planned the confrontation where they have terrain advantage and Nimble Moves will save the day. If the enemy is actively trying to fool the party, perhaps Breadth of Experience or Skill Focus(Sense Motive) would have been the best feats.

Some feats help characters stay competitive in combat. Other feats, in a campaign with more dimensions than combat, help win the combat before it starts.


Philo Pharynx wrote:

And in PFS you don't know who's going to show up and the modules are prewritten. A lot of GM's simply don't have the time to come up with a whole homebrew campaign from scratch. They pick up AP's and other adventures and season them to taste.

While your advice is good, it only applies to a subset of gamers.

The initial topic makes a generalization. It doesn't apply to some groups, so it needs to be ammended. Much the same as if you said "All mammals live on the land", and someone says "Not whales", you don't turn around and say "Shush, they're only a subset".

And if you are intent on discounting subsets, then perhaps PFS only applies to a subset of gamers.

Snowblind wrote:
Everything you listed there is either a slight variant on power attack or ****y compared to power attack (unless maybe you are a Hippo).

So here is what you have established. Some people think there are some mandatory feats. When an alternative feat is very much like one of theses suspect feats, it doesn't count. The fact that they have different prerequisites, or for risky striker a different cost is no matter. So clearly an alternative feat must be very different, with a different result.

And yet.. Weapon Specialization is discounted, because it doesn't accomplish the exact same thing. Because it is a lesser damage bonus without an accuracy penalty. I don't care if you think it is sub-optimal, we've already had a conversation about optimization in this context. If you are desperate for a time when it is a good choice, consider weapon specialization for a dual dagger wielding Pharasman warpriest, who doesn't want to further drop accuracy but wants a damage boost.
So what would an alternative feat look like to you? Would it be very similar, like risky striker to power attack, or a little different like weapon specialization, arcane strike or vital strike is to power attack, or perhaps very different, like step up and strike is to power attack?

Snowblind wrote:
Weapon Finesse

For Weapon Finesse, If you can accomplish the same thing with a different load of feats, isn't that the exact opposite of what the thread topic claims? That is exactly what I was trying to show.

Sure, with an Unchained Rogue it looks worse. Again, the only thing here is that you have had your expectations increased.

Snowblind wrote:
Gauntlets aren't unarmed strikes, don't allow for style feats

Yep, I am so annoyed that my Monk, Brawler or Unarmed Fighter needs that feat they get for free.

Gauntlets do allow you to punch things, which is exactly the intent.
Snowblind wrote:
Speaking of skipping prerequisites, many classes have options to skip prerequisites. Rogues can take combat steal without needing C.E. Monks and Mesmerists can take Improved Feint, monks can Trip, Disarm. there's lots of options like this.
Snowblind wrote:
You only save 1 feat by not spending 4 feats on archery. Can't keep up at level 6. I think Elf Rangers have a hard time getting INT. Vital Strike is better

Great Maths right there. You might be saving 4 feats. And so what if you are only saving 1 feat, many in this thread are operating under the idea that low level characters suffer from opportunity cost. Optimization optimization, doesn't read the thread.. Vital Strike is a 6+ BAB feat, you might as well say burning hands is bad because detonate is better.

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