Contributor
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Hmm... if the PCs attend the ambush (which is likely, unless they make an easily failed Linguistics check), the adventure has no optional encounter.
Just looking at the map, there is no way Cetenna doesn't notice the fighting in C4. Is she using the time to prep and then just sitting on her hands claws?
Also, the PCs lose gold for not discovering C5. The entrance is 10 feet from the final boss room, within direct LOS of at least two enemies. It seems likely that PCs will go handle that, which may end the scenario (time depending). I feel like the Aspis should have sprung for some doors.
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Contributor
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I've heard it's acceptable to mention Faction-relevant content - e.g., "This scenario has Dark Archive-related content, if you have a character of that faction in tier". Note that under no circumstances would spoilers be given, or even the positives/negatives of such a decision.
Does that apply to "dead" factions, such as the Sczarni?
More importantly, does that apply to specific scenarios? Is it acceptable to say, "If any of you have characters who received a Chronicle Sheet for Serpent's Rise, it will be relevant to the scenario"?
It seems like it would be a massive gamble for the right character to play the scenario by accident, and since the boon isn't transferable, players may feel cheated.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I've heard it's acceptable to mention Faction-relevant content - e.g., "This scenario has Dark Archive-related content, if you have a character of that faction in tier". Note that under no circumstances would spoilers be given, or even the positives/negatives of such a decision.
Does that apply to "dead" factions, such as the Sczarni?
More importantly, does that apply to specific scenarios? Is it acceptable to say, "If any of you have characters who received a Chronicle Sheet for Serpent's Rise, it will be relevant to the scenario"?
It seems like it would be a massive gamble for the right character to play the scenario by accident, and since the boon isn't transferable, players may feel cheated.
Thanks for starting this thread! I'm Ben Bruck, I wrote this scenario.
I think it's fair to mention that this adventure deals prominently with Guaril Karela (he shows up in the mission briefing, so that's not much of a spoiler), so players might want to bring members of the Exchange or the now-dead Sczarni.
As for the other issue, you don't actually need to play a character who has the Serpent's Rise Chronicle Sheet (and in fact that might be tricky, since Serpent's Rise is a 6-8 adventure, and Trouble in Tamran caps at 5), you--the player--just need to have that Chronicle Sheet.
Hope you have a good time running the adventure!
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Yeah, I'm a little confused about the sidebar about Zurnzal and Cetenna since the tiers don't match up. Maybe the player just has to show ANY chronicle for serpent's rise, not just with this character? Otherwise I don't think it can happen.
Assistant Developer
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Maybe the player just has to show ANY chronicle for serpent's rise, not just with this character? Otherwise I don't think it can happen.
That's right. The Serpents Rise chronicle sheet can be on any of the player's characters, not just the character that plays #7-07.
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Ran it yesterday at NukeCon.
In regards to the close proximity of the penultimate fight and the final fight, after they finished the C4 fight, they had three rounds before hearing a very angry "I have to do EVERYTHING myself!" and initiatives were retaken as Cetenna shows up.
I could see it going VERY poorly had Cetenna joined the C4 encounter.
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I ran this on low tier, finished two hours ago. Had a Q:
My players infiltrated the fort through the secret entry, bypassing the arcanist encounter entirely.
After dealing with everything belowground they took C2(iirc) stairway up from below and proceeded to search the ruins. I'm not sure if I ran it right, but was I supposed to run the encounter even if the PCs bypass it? I'm just tired, I think, but can't seem to locate an answer even with close reading.
Very fun scenario all in all. Particularly liked the npc's. Running the veteran was a hoot!
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I ran this on low tier, finished two hours ago. Had a Q:
My players infiltrated the fort through the secret entry, bypassing the arcanist encounter entirely.
After dealing with everything belowground they took C2(iirc) stairway up from below and proceeded to search the ruins. I'm not sure if I ran it right, but was I supposed to run the encounter even if the PCs bypass it? I'm just tired, I think, but can't seem to locate an answer even with close reading.
Very fun scenario all in all. Particularly liked the npc's. Running the veteran was a hoot!
Yeah, I would probably still run that encounter, though the arcanists probably wouldn't bother running the ghost scam on PCs coming from inside the base.
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Maybe the player just has to show ANY chronicle for serpent's rise, not just with this character? Otherwise I don't think it can happen.That's right. The Serpents Rise chronicle sheet can be on any of the player's characters, not just the character that plays #7-07.
Linda, Tonya, etc.,
could we get this FAQ'd, or moved somewhere more visable?Just 'cause it wasn't purely obvious to me (and some others). Also, future, in the text describing use of these, something like "this chronicle may have been applied to any character for a player" would be good!
Thanks!
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Kalindlara asked a question I think pretty important; I'll reiterate it here in the terms I use in my EZ Prep (something I make for certain scenarios as a kind of 'quick reference'). I put the below immediately after the investigation section, before the real meeting with Guaril.
"There are a few weird things about this encounter. The first thing to note is that these units can be fought later on during the dungeon crawl if they are not fought now. This in and of itself is not terribly unusual; but there’s one further complication: they are the optional encounter when listed there. To my mind, the purpose of an optional encounter is to ensure that scenarios can be completed in a typical 4-5 hour time slot. Having the encounter happen earlier than where they are listed as optional means that if things drag from here onwards, there may no longer be an optional encounter to skip when time starts running out. As a result, I recommend skipping this encounter in its entirety during the investigation section, and potentially doing it in Area C4 if time allows.
The other bit of weirdness is that the scenario suggests sending the letter that would lead to this encounter, “…after two days have passed, or after the PCs have investigated all but one of the listed locations.” I find it odd that these two time marks are thought to be roughly equivalent, as even if every information gathering check up to this point takes it’s maximum duration, that is only 19 hours (11.5 hours average time expenditure if no checks must be re-attempted after a failure). The scenario never specifies at what time the party arrived in Tamran, so reasonably it could still be the same day they arrived. That really begs the question of why we’re bothering tracking time at all."
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Kalindlara asked a question I think pretty important; I'll reiterate it here in the terms I use in my EZ Prep (something I make for certain scenarios as a kind of 'quick reference'). I put the below immediately after the investigation section, before the real meeting with Guaril.
"There are a few weird things about this encounter. The first thing to note is that these units can be fought later on during the dungeon crawl if they are not fought now. This in and of itself is not terribly unusual; but there’s one further complication: they are the optional encounter when listed there. To my mind, the purpose of an optional encounter is to ensure that scenarios can be completed in a typical 4-5 hour time slot. Having the encounter happen earlier than where they are listed as optional means that if things drag from here onwards, there may no longer be an optional encounter to skip when time starts running out. As a result, I recommend skipping this encounter in its entirety during the investigation section, and potentially doing it in Area C4 if time allows.
The other bit of weirdness is that the scenario suggests sending the letter that would lead to this encounter, “…after two days have passed, or after the PCs have investigated all but one of the listed locations.” I find it odd that these two time marks are thought to be roughly equivalent, as even if every information gathering check up to this point takes it’s maximum duration, that is only 19 hours (11.5 hours average time expenditure if no checks must be re-attempted after a failure). The scenario never specifies at what time the party arrived in Tamran, so reasonably it could still be the same day they arrived. That really begs the question of why we’re bothering tracking time at all."
Good questions.
Unless the PCs really drag their feet through the investigation portion, I would NOT recommend moving the razmiran encounter to C4. I think meeting these enemies as a result of receiving the forged letter is a much more interesting and fun encounter than finding them later in the base. I realize this potentially leaves the adventure without an optional encounter, but the adventure originally contained a completely different optional encounter that I cut for word count reasons, rather than time purposes, so time shouldn't be an big issue.
As to the other issue, I set a time limit because otherwise PCs on a fail streak could spend a month trying to dig up information in Tamran, and that's kind of goofy :)
I assumed the PCs have, at most, 16 hours a day to investigate (with the remaining 8 being for sleeping). That means if they ace all their checks and roll average on the time rolls they can absolutely blow through the investigation in one day, but if they roll poorly on their durations and biff a Diplomacy check or two, the investigation might bleed over into the second day. At three days, if the Party doesn't have a diplomat, and don't get lucky with the rolls, they could conceivably run out of time.
The razmiran encounter happens at day two or four sites clear not because these are expected to happen at the same time, but because they both signal the investigation is almost over.
Thanks for the feedback!
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Kalindlara asked a question I think pretty important; I'll reiterate it here in the terms I use in my EZ Prep (something I make for certain scenarios as a kind of 'quick reference'). I put the below immediately after the investigation section, before the real meeting with Guaril.
"There are a few weird things about this encounter. The first thing to note is that these units can be fought later on during the dungeon crawl if they are not fought now. This in and of itself is not terribly unusual; but there’s one further complication: they are the optional encounter when listed there. To my mind, the purpose of an optional encounter is to ensure that scenarios can be completed in a typical 4-5 hour time slot. Having the encounter happen earlier than where they are listed as optional means that if things drag from here onwards, there may no longer be an optional encounter to skip when time starts running out. As a result, I recommend skipping this encounter in its entirety during the investigation section, and potentially doing it in Area C4 if time allows.
The other bit of weirdness is that the scenario suggests sending the letter that would lead to this encounter, “…after two days have passed, or after the PCs have investigated all but one of the listed locations.” I find it odd that these two time marks are thought to be roughly equivalent, as even if every information gathering check up to this point takes it’s maximum duration, that is only 19 hours (11.5 hours average time expenditure if no checks must be re-attempted after a failure). The scenario never specifies at what time the party arrived in Tamran, so reasonably it could still be the same day they arrived. That really begs the question of why we’re bothering tracking time at all."
Good questions.
Unless the PCs really drag their feet through the investigation portion, I would NOT recommend moving the razmiran encounter to C4. I think meeting these enemies as a result of receiving the forged letter...
I had misread a paragraph at the beginning to say that it took 3 days to GET to Tamran, not that they had a 3 day limit. That makes a lot more sense now. I also now catch the 'early hours of the morning' phrase. I just skimmed that paragraph a little to quickly.
If the Investigation goes quickly, I'll leave C4 where it is. The scenario did feel a bit trimmed from word count. I don't know if this is an appropriate place to leave feedback for paizo development staff, but if you read this, word count limits are not good. If the intent is to keep things within a time slot, word counts are ineffectual tools to do that.
If stat blocks within the scenario (rather than appendices) count against that limit, then there's your problem. There are 12 stat blocks within the scenario when both tiers are considered. Fully 1/3 of the page space in this scenario is stat blocks. Now that monster blocks from the Bestiaries are tacked on at the end, using Bestiary entries with the little [INSERT MONSTER from Page X Appendix 1] box in the middle of the scenario is something I think should be encouraged as a practice. Not only does it leave more room for story content, it also usually makes for more memorable fights (people remember fighting shadow mastiffs more often than 'Ranger Level 5') and is easier to run, as the monster blocks in the appendices aren't jumbled around by maps and other bits of page formatting.
EDIT: Another small note, a brawler does not expend a move AND swift action to gain two feats. They can gain just one as a swift, and if they get two it uses their move. They still have the swift action if they take two.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Eh, I kind of disagree. Monster fights can be more memorable, of course, but they also run the risk of feeling a little "off the rack." A good NPC fight can be just as memorable, and I hope that players come away from this scenario talking about that time they fought that crazy hulked-out Razmiran Priest, weird ghost people, or creepy badger lady.
As for wordcounts, I think they exist as much to keep writers on track and developers sane as they do to keep the scenarios under time limit. :)
That's a good catch on the brawler. I'll have to check my notes, I may have made an error there.
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Heh, I had about 15 minutes to prep, noticed the time ticking fairly late, panicked and winged the phase. Luckily for me, my players decided that canvassing, investigating, etc would be silly at night(except in the inn or in the form of pub crawl!) and so they set a timetable of sorts and basically policied themselves! I rolled so many 1's that they could have finished in one day, leaving two days to hang around bored.
In part 3 I kept rummaging the text to find some reason for the time tracking and coming up with nade. Glad to hear I didn't mess anything up.
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Assistant Developer
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I do not have a Chronicle Sheet for Serpent's Rise. Does my GM chronicle have Zurnzal's Foe?
Probably a silly question, but... best to be sure. It's a learning experience. ^_^
I'm happy to answer questions ^_^. GMs still need the boon from Serpent's Rise to gain Zurnzal's Foe.
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Assistant Developer
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There seems to be an error on the chronicle: the out-of-subtier GP is half the subtier 4-5 GP instead of the average of the two subtiers. At first I thought this might be an odd, but intentional decision, but if you add up all of the out-of-subtier reductions for missing an encounter, you get the average of the subtiers, implying that it's intended that you're supposed to get that average.
Good catch. Out of subtier gold should be 1177 gp, or 589 gp on slow track.
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So the Zurznal's foe (By the way, the chronicle also misspells his name, three words after spelling it correctly) boon should be crossed off on my witch since I haven't finished playing Serpent's Rise through PbP?
Also, if the chronicle is updated with a new amount of gold, should those who played it previously change how much gold they got?
That last fight with the brawler (I assume she's a brawler) and the MOUSes (Mustelids Of Unusual Size) was very tough but very fun.
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I just want to double check - did you have to actually play Zurznal to get the boon? When we were handed out our chronicle sheets at PaizoCon, they were literally just signed and handed over (we were about to be kicked out of the room). I was unsure if we were supposed to only benefit from the pregen we played, or from all of them.
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Took me a second to track down the relevant post, but here it is!
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When GMS decide which boon they want (for Serpents Rise), they must cross off the others. Because of this, when running Trouble in Tamran, if you have a player with a GM Serpents Rise chronicle sheet, and no one else with the Zurnzal boon, you'll need to have them state before the scenario if they want to apply it to Zurnzal or not, since it affects Cetenna's loadout in the final act.
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Reran it today and again was the arcanist encounter avoided.
Cetenna and her furry friends then tore the party to shreds. First the swashbuckler got tripped and grappled, then the rage beaver ripped him to the teens. Witch tried to hypnotize but had to eat a haymaker. The beaver had a new target this round because Doctor Anthrax's syringe spear nearly tenderized it. Cetenna lost some hp to the sorc's missile but saved against an evil eye which dropped the hypno-witch from 0 hp to the negatives. Next round Cetenna's weasel grappled the alchemist, Cetenna herself smacked the sorc down in one blow. This left the chemist grappled and alone. He surrendered.
I decided that the skinwalker wasn't interested in murdering them and instead would be anxious to meet Madreki and Zurnsal. She tied the good Doctor to the cages and took her leave, saying that the pathfinders should remember her prowess and that of her teacher. An hour later one of the poor PC's managed to wake up and healed the group. The elves went their ways once Cetanna was no longer with the group.
I guess this counts as a tpk. First one for everything, eh.
edit: shiny shiny star!
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Venture-Agent, Washington—Bothell
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I just GMed this; do I get the Zurnzal's Foe boon even though I do not have the Spoils of the Siege (Zurnzal) boon? (I instead have Marnarius' boon) From my understanding GMs get all boons that the character qualifies for (so no getting a Silver Crusade boon on your Dark Archive character) but would that exclude you from gaining this boon? Also while this was not my case, if a player at the table did have Zurnzal's Spoils of the Siege boon would that change if the GM got the Zurnzal's Foe boon?
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Venture-Agent, Washington—Bothell
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It's been discussed around here somewhere - the GM needs Zurnzal's boon to gain Zurnzal's Foe. A player having it doesn't affect this.
Alright so using some more advanced google-fu I found this thread. where the general consensus seemed to be that you need the relevant Spoils boon to get the reward even as a GM. It would be nice for some official clarification on this, especially for those of us without access to the Serpent's Rise scenario as it was unclear with just the info in the Trouble in Tamran scenario.
