A idea about the poor AC when you're at high level


Homebrew and House Rules


I'm a PC from China,first I'm sorry for my poor english.

My friend and I discussed about the situation that when you are high level fighter or barbarian or whatever class ,the AC became useless.The battle just like "Who is the faster gunner on west""Be touched and die",because AC don't follow the growth of AB,and equipment can't fix that.Even if equipment can do so by our grand DM,it just don't fair,because in that way item will become too important and PC 's own ability mean nothing.

So we drew a conclusion after discussion:What If we have "BAC" so AC can benefit from it just like BAB for AB?Whether simple "20BAB=20BAC" type or"20BAB=20/n BAC" type or more complicated type like depending on your level,it will be a good description for a adventure who become more and more skilled at dodge,block when he level up,instead of the situation that "they only have same AC benefit from same sheild,no matter different level they're" or "a level 1 wizard who carry a sheild has higher AC than a level 20 figther because the figther don't know he can cross his greatsword to block or simply dodge."I mean,these situations are disappointed,a good swordman must be harder to hit than a rookie sheilder,and two 20 level PC's battle can't be one touch and die,their basic fight skill(BAB) can't all about hitting enemy and not include avoiding being hit (For those bad or normal BAB classes,they're not warrior or complete warrior,that's their class basic setting.so I pefer who has good BAB are also has good BAC)

Thanks again for you stand my poor english.Reading and writing are totally different things......


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AC doesn't really become useless at high-level, but it changes its usefulness.

Instead of completely negating damage like it does at low levels, the main function of AC shifts to mitigating damage. That is... At high level, you'll probably always take the first hit from an combat-focused opponent, but a good AC can still stop its iterative attacks. It's the difference between eating 1d8+20 and eating 4d8+80. And a good Touch AC helps against those all-powerful rays. Arcane casters have poor BAB, after all.

That said, I think AC should scale with BAB as well. IMO, it's pretty idiotic that a 20th level Fighter has the same AC as a 1st level Fighter with the same gear. How does a character go 19 levels without learning how to better defend herself from attacks?

-.-'


In my house rules, there are bonus effects which trigger if you hit by more than 10, and more if you hit by more than 20 (only applies to normal attack rolls, not touch attacks). A higher AC can negate some of those effects (as well as, as Lemmy pointed out, iterative attacks).

Liberty's Edge

Oh, I know this one.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/damageConversion.htm


Lemmy wrote:

AC doesn't really become useless at high-level, but it changes its usefulness.

Instead of completely negating damage like it does at low levels, the main function of AC shifts to mitigating damage. That is... At high level, you'll probably always take the first hit from an combat-focused opponent, but a good AC can still stop its iterative attacks. It's the difference between eating 1d8+20 and eating 4d8+80. And a good Touch AC helps against those all-powerful rays. Arcane casters have poor BAB, after all.

That said, I think AC should scale with BAB as well. IMO, it's pretty idiotic that a 20th level Fighter has the same AC as a 1st level Fighter with the same gear. How does a character go 19 levels without learning how to better defend herself from attacks?

-.-'

I agree, that was one of the good things about 4E was that characters AC would naturally increase as they level up. Of course, 4E certainly had it's bad points as well.


Monte Cook's Iron Heroes book has classes that gain a passive Base defense bonus but they also have a chart in it with different rates the bonuses are obtained (Poor, Average, and Excellent), different classes would just have to be assigned which rate they gain their bonus.
I believe it is a bonus that simulates the ability to parry and dodge so it is something that is lost if flat-footed. You should check it out.


HeHateMe wrote:


I agree, that was one of the good things about 4E was that characters AC would naturally increase as they level up. Of course, 4E certainly had it's bad points as well.

For me, the bad points is the sterile presentation, battles that drag out before the changes of the MM3, and lack of combat-noncombat interactions with the powers.

-----

Defense bonus is a bad, bad rule, and makes the combat at the first levels a rain of misses.


Metal Sonic wrote:
HeHateMe wrote:


I agree, that was one of the good things about 4E was that characters AC would naturally increase as they level up. Of course, 4E certainly had it's bad points as well.

For me, the bad points is the sterile presentation, battles that drag out before the changes of the MM3, and lack of combat-noncombat interactions with the powers.

-----

Defense bonus is a bad, bad rule, and makes the combat at the first levels a rain of misses.

How? It wouldn't grow faster than BAB even for fighters (and if it did, it wouldn't make sense), probably with a similar rate for half Good Save (without the +2 at lvl 1) and bad Save for more melee based characters and non respectively, as that is what seems best balanced to me without doing math on paper. It probably only apply to Touch and normal AC and might also apply against certain types of attack (ranged vs melee vs casting).


Metal Sonic wrote:
HeHateMe wrote:


I agree, that was one of the good things about 4E was that characters AC would naturally increase as they level up. Of course, 4E certainly had it's bad points as well.

For me, the bad points is the sterile presentation, battles that drag out before the changes of the MM3, and lack of combat-noncombat interactions with the powers.

-----

Defense bonus is a bad, bad rule, and makes the combat at the first levels a rain of misses.

It's really not difficult to hit most bad guys, and it makes sense that as combatants gets more experienced, they would learn how to avoid hits better.


Alien wrote:

So we drew a conclusion after discussion:What If we have "BAC" so AC can benefit from it just like BAB for AB?Whether simple "20BAB=20BAC" type or"20BAB=20/n BAC" type or more complicated type like depending on your level,it will be a good description for a adventure who become more and more skilled at dodge,block when he level up,instead of the situation that "they only have same AC benefit from same sheild,no matter different level they're" or "a level 1 wizard who carry a sheild has higher AC than a level 20 figther because the figther don't know he can cross his greatsword to block or simply dodge."I mean,these situations are disappointed,a good swordman must be harder to hit than a rookie sheilder,and two 20 level PC's battle can't be one touch and die,their basic fight skill(BAB) can't all about hitting enemy and not include avoiding being hit (For those bad or normal BAB classes,they're not warrior or complete warrior,that's their class basic setting.so I pefer who has good BAB are also has good BAC)

Thanks again for you stand my poor english.Reading and writing are totally different things......

I share your concern. In our games we use a Base Defense Bonus for all classes and monsters which is equal to one-half character's or monster's Base Attack Bonus.

As a result of introducting a Base Defense Bonus, you will have to adjust to others parts of the system:

1 - Relance magic items bonuses: so AC bonus magic itens will have to be offset by Attack Bonus magic itens. The quantity of sources of AC bonus magic items (armor) will have to be limited to same quantity of sources of Attack bonus magic items (weapons). So, no AC natural armor bonus from amulets (give instead Damage Reduction) and no Deflection Bonus from rings (give instead saving throw bonuses or others).

2 - Rework warrior classes (Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger) Itterative Attacks Progression, to be more similar to 2E and 5E, like this:
Lvl BAB
1st +1
2nd +2
3rd +3
4th +4
5th +5
6th +6
7th +7/+3
8th +8/+5
9th +9/+7
10th +10/+8
11th +11/+10
12th +12/+12
13th +13/+13/+9
14th +14/+14/+11
15th +15/+15/+13
16th +16/+16/+14
17th +17/+17/+16
18th +18/+18/+18
19th +19/+19/+19
20th +20/+20/+20

For non-warrior classes (like cleric, druid, wizards and others) skip itterative attacks totaly.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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The default AC bonuses from items add up to +20 or so, with some misc thrown in (+5 armor enhancement, +5 Deflect, +5 Nat Armor, +3 from Dex, +2 from other). So anyone and everyone is going to enjoy an absolute minimum of +20 to AC by level 20.

Generally, it will be higher, since base gear improves, inherent bonuses kick in, and spell buffs stack on. Generally, AC in the 40-50 range is totally achievable without going overboard.

Only the most powerful of high level monsters are going to have TH bonuses that can actually deal with that level of AC routinely. IF you have poor AC at high levels, you need to invest more defensively. That's pretty much all there is to it.

==Aelryinth


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It's simple game design theory.

If defense outpaces offense, eventually nobody can kill anything.

If defense perfectly matches offense, every fight always feels the same - you don't feel like your high-level character is better than he was at low level.

If offense outpaces defense, high-level characters actually get better at killing their enemies and they feel more powerful.

So that is how they designed it. The converse is true, however, that monster offense outpaces PC defense. This is also good design because high-CR monsters SHOULD feel like they are more deadly than low-CR monsters.

It's all working exactly as designed.


DM_Blake wrote:
It's all working exactly as designed.

The problem is that this game design sucks. Players and DM dont want to roll 4 itterative attacks, if the third and forth are almost always inefective.

If defense matches offense in combat between equal level fighters, they wont feel underpowered, but will take the hardship of combating another experienced fighter. In the other hand, in combats between fighters of diferent levels, the fighter with higher level will feel overpowered and better than he was at low levels.

You cannot defend the current system mechanic.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Valian wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:
It's all working exactly as designed.

The problem is that this game design sucks. Players and DM dont want to roll 4 itterative attacks, if the third and forth are almost always inefective.

If defense matches offense in combat between equal level fighters, they wont feel underpowered, but will take the hardship of combating another experienced fighter. In the other hand, in combats between fighters of diferent levels, the fighter with higher level will feel overpowered and better than he was at low levels.

You cannot defend the current system mechanic.

Two fighters of equal level will hit each other equally and a higher of lower level will be challenged to hit the higher level fighter as often, that is how it works today. It just happens that if the level difference isn't vast the higher level fighter will still likely take the first hit. Since HP are an abstract combat mechanic that isn't supposed to represent specifically physical damage, but ones ability to continue fighting, a fighter challenging a foe of near but lower level is still going to be challenged to some extent.

While defence does grow slower than offence, a fighters defence does grow through magical means and improving stats.

For me the issue is non-weapon base monsters tend to have the same bonus to attack on all (or most) of their natural attacks meaning they can really go to town on the defence / offence disparity.

Additionally there are other forms of defence that become viable after level 10, like cloaks of displacement, and effects that grant DR (barbarian, adamantine amour, stone skin.) These significantly alter the fighters staying power vs his less equipped juniors.

TL;DR: I'm with DM_Blake, working as designed and achieving appropriate play outcomes.


Some builds (dex build monk & kensai, for example) can maintain a high enough AC at high level to mitigate even the first attack of a full BAB character. Both maintain a high touch AC.

A twf sword & board fighter can be looking at an AC in the 50's without sacrificing too much offensive power.

A dexterity build monk or kensai can be looking at an AC in the 60's while still threatening opponents.

More extreme AC's are possible, but you're typically making sacrifices in other areas.


AwesomenessDog wrote:
How? It wouldn't grow faster than BAB even for fighters (and if it did, it wouldn't make sense) [...]
HeHateMe wrote:
It's really not difficult to hit most bad guys, and it makes sense that as combatants gets more experienced, they would learn how to avoid hits better.

Nothing against a Defense Bonus per se, but against the one presented at 3.5. The Unearthed Arcana Defense Bonus at levels 1-3 is way too much in my experience of play, and I remember low level unarmored NPCs with AC in the 17-23 range.

Anyway, using the Automatic Bonus Progression helps a LOT with it. A unequiped Fighter 20 with starting DEX 14 will have AC 25... Wich is way better that AC 12.


Well... It's already pretty easy to have high AC at low levels... A simple chain shirt + heavy shield gives you a +6. Add that to a decent Dex score or class feature and you get a AC 18 or higher. At 2nd level, when you can actually afford a breastplate, you can quickly reach AC 20~23.

And that's at a point where the highest to-hit bonus a PC is likely to have is a +8... Maybe a +10. And it's probably a +6 or +7 most of the time.


Metal Sonic wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
How? It wouldn't grow faster than BAB even for fighters (and if it did, it wouldn't make sense) [...]
HeHateMe wrote:
It's really not difficult to hit most bad guys, and it makes sense that as combatants gets more experienced, they would learn how to avoid hits better.

Nothing against a Defense Bonus per se, but against the one presented at 3.5. The Unearthed Arcana Defense Bonus at levels 1-3 is way too much in my experience of play, and I remember low level unarmored NPCs with AC in the 17-23 range.

Anyway, using the Automatic Bonus Progression helps a LOT with it. A unequiped Fighter 20 with starting DEX 14 will have AC 25... Wich is way better that AC 12.

Not like a clever monk couldn't get AC 23 at level 1, but I digress. I agree with the fact that a fighter 20 should have a higher flat AC than a fighter 1 or a wizard 20 (not that those are equal in the martial department) if the normal HP abstract is used since it doesn't differentiate between crit and sustain (or vitals and endurance).

A butt naked, unarmed, level 20 fighter should be able to take out 55 lvl 1 clones (by the CR rating scale) no problem, but he wont with the current AC system, because while he has a hit on every one of the clones due to AC, they are still hitting him 50%(ish) of the time which is same chance of hitting each other. Assuming the 20 gets a kill against each clone per hit, he gets 3 hits that are guaranteed and one that hits ~75% of the time but he gets 8 incoming hits so an average of 4 hits that we can expect to drop him a hit die each. This makes it so he dies after 5 rounds letting him get off only 16-17 kills. How is that someone who has spend years honing his craft (not like many campaigns last more than a few month in game) gets taken down by 17 weaker clones?

If we reran the numbers giving the 20 fighter a +12 to his AC for his training he would be taking a hit for every 10 rolls, so he would be taking damage less than once a round. These hits in the abstraction no longer represent semi-crippling strikes adding up but a few bruises at the end of the fight.

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