Air Your Grievances


Gamer Life General Discussion

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Terquem wrote:

wait, what? So you just, what, imagine what the character is supposed to look like

*pffft* that is so 1975

We don't even use a battle mat. We still use theater of the mind. That's how old school we play. Actually, we found that moving the figures around during battle and such just took up too much time, so we just use the same way we always did it. We also don't have room for such a thing in our play space.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Of course, there's an element of false equivalency there—scantily-clad dudes in fantasy art are often more about male empowerment than fanservice for women and non-straight gamers. With scantily-clad women, I think we all recognize it's the other way around.

There's also the "if they both exist at all, then there must not be an imbalance" issue that's being ignored.

Sure, there are plenty of loincloth-toting male barbarians. These are mirrored by the pelt-bikini female barbarians.

But then there's also the sexy female mages, sexy female archers, sexy female bards, sexy female assassins, sexy female tavern servers, and so forth. Where are the male counterparts for these?

Yeah, sorry, crying "But barbarians!" isn't enough to support a claim that "there's plenty of beefcake as well as cheesecake".


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Of course, there's an element of false equivalency there—scantily-clad dudes in fantasy art are often more about male empowerment than fanservice for women and non-straight gamers. With scantily-clad women, I think we all recognize it's the other way around.

Only if you think there aren't a lot of female gamers who like beefcake.


Jiggy wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Of course, there's an element of false equivalency there—scantily-clad dudes in fantasy art are often more about male empowerment than fanservice for women and non-straight gamers. With scantily-clad women, I think we all recognize it's the other way around.

There's also the "if they both exist at all, then there must not be an imbalance" issue that's being ignored.

Sure, there are plenty of loincloth-toting male barbarians. These are mirrored by the pelt-bikini female barbarians.

But then there's also the sexy female mages, sexy female archers, sexy female bards, sexy female assassins, sexy female tavern servers, and so forth. Where are the male counterparts for these?

Yeah, sorry, crying "But barbarians!" isn't enough to support a claim that "there's plenty of beefcake as well as cheesecake".

I just went to Pinterest and found plenty of all those guys.


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DrDeth wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Of course, there's an element of false equivalency there—scantily-clad dudes in fantasy art are often more about male empowerment than fanservice for women and non-straight gamers. With scantily-clad women, I think we all recognize it's the other way around.
Only if you think there aren't a lot of female gamers who like beefcake.

No, that conditional does not apply. I don't see why it would.


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I should not have tried to make a poorly worded joke about this issue (fantasy art). It is a topic that can quickly spiral out of control.

Please respect the light hearted nature of this thread and don't let my poor judgment cause it to get locked over this topic.

Silver Crusade

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Of course, there's an element of false equivalency there—scantily-clad dudes in fantasy art are often more about male empowerment than fanservice for women and non-straight gamers. With scantily-clad women, I think we all recognize it's the other way around.
Only if you think there aren't a lot of female gamers who like beefcake.
No, that conditional does not apply. I don't see why it would.

*nods*

There's a difference between sexually attractive, and sexualized.

Scarab Sages

DrDeth wrote:
Terquem wrote:

I don't really see the need to advocate for female fantasy rendered characters to be "covered up"

Let's get the men uncovered and see what that does to the genre

Actually there's plenty of beefcake as well as cheesecake.

Many male barbarian figures are wearing a tad of fur, a huge frikken weapon and a double sixpack.

That's another grievance - why should all barbarians, who typically come from the game setting's equivalent of Scandinavia, run around in fur bikinis?! Is it to show how tough and ripped they are? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't want frostbitten abs.

As a hetero cisgender female, I don't like the beefcake. I think six-pack abs looks unnatural and weird. I prefer all my character classes with some clothes on, unless they come from a geographic region where the climate conditions would make less clothing appropriate.

DungeonmasterCal wrote:
We don't even use a battle mat. We still use theater of the mind. That's how old school we play. Actually, we found that moving the figures around during battle and such just took up too much time, so we just use the same way we always did it. We also don't have room for such a thing in our play space.

I have one GM who's like that, and it drives me crazy. I love using minis. I don't have a tape measure in my brain, so telling me that something is 50 feet away tells me nothing. And a few scribbles on a white board are not enough. For me, minis don't take any more time than it takes to play 20 Questions to make sure I really understand the terrain the GM is describing.

We sometimes lay the battle mat out on the coffee table when others GM at his house.


We tried using a card table set up in the middle of our living room for the battle mat but having everyone get up from their seats (we sit on couches around the living room) and walk over and back again just took up too much time. When we played at FLGS we used it more, as we had larger tables and we could all sit at the same table to use the mat, but I'm not able to play there anymore because of my anxiety issues. So we just went back to doing things the old way. It works for us and has for 30 years. My group most likely wouldn't mesh well with others as we've rarely played with people outside our group so we all know how each other is going to play. Playing with mats and minis just isn't our bag.


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My favorite wine shop only has two varieties of Beaujolais Nouveau for my thanksgiving wine this year....

However, they have a new shipment of one of my favorite Spanish wines Creta Roble 2012 at 12 dollars a bottle so I came out way ahead!


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Dire Elf wrote:
I love using minis. I don't have a tape measure in my brain, so telling me that something is 50 feet away tells me nothing.

Generally my players are only interested in how many move actions away is the enemy.


Jiggy wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Of course, there's an element of false equivalency there—scantily-clad dudes in fantasy art are often more about male empowerment than fanservice for women and non-straight gamers. With scantily-clad women, I think we all recognize it's the other way around.

There's also the "if they both exist at all, then there must not be an imbalance" issue that's being ignored.

Sure, there are plenty of loincloth-toting male barbarians. These are mirrored by the pelt-bikini female barbarians.

But then there's also the sexy female mages, sexy female archers, sexy female bards, sexy female assassins, sexy female tavern servers, and so forth. Where are the male counterparts for these?

Yeah, sorry, crying "But barbarians!" isn't enough to support a claim that "there's plenty of beefcake as well as cheesecake".

Not a prioritary opinion here, but I cringe everytime I try to make male PC here in paizo forum, choosing an appropiate picture is a pain compared to the female counterpart.

Though, there was a thread where someone complained about the disparity beefcake/cheesecake in paizo art and it was recieved with a lot of agresiveness, so it's one of those topics that can get nasty rather quickly.


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Now I want to make a sexy male tavern-server turned sexy male archer.

The Exchange

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thegreenteagamer wrote:
Now I want to make a sexy male tavern-server turned sexy male archer.

Sexy for who though?

Who determines sexiness? I mean, if went around as a male wizard dressed in chest revealing clothes that also showed off my wiry legs, ala seoni, is that sexy?

I think we have images where Paizos fighter is all buffed up and half nekkid. Also their old man wizard was depicted in a bath scene once, also surprisingly muscled up.

Isn't the iconic monk all chiseled abs and bare chest? What about the iconic Paladin. Pretty face but otherwise covered in steel.

Modern roleplay seems to have toned the whole thing pretty well. Computer games not so much.

Now my rant - where's all the beefcake Flumph characters? Or the sexy as Oozes? Diverse species aren't being depicted as sexy enough dammit! Where the equality!

(Actually, that black pudding is kinda cute)


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Well, according to my wife, the new trailer for The Dark Tower has the apex of sexiness versus the apex of anther style of sexiness in Matthew McConaughey vs. Idris Elba, so, I'm gonna go with one of those two guys just carrying a bow around being beautiful.

With horrifically impractical armor, like leather that has a huge chest hole in it to show off the pecs. He's going to be ditzy, and laugh a lot at bad jokes that women tell. Bond Girl fashion he's going to have a bad pun name that means something sexual and/or attractive to women... Like Long John Goodlistener. Or something like that. Steady Canholdajob, perhaps.

The Exchange

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Awesome response. According to my wife I'll have to be Daniel Craig look alike dressed in speedos and covered in a perpetual layer of moisture like I just walked from the ocean.

I believe my name would be something like Chiselledabs McHouschores.

I'll also have to have a blue eyed stare that can turn a girls legs to jelly and apparently speedos will,need to have the "plot armour" magical ability,,as that's all,she'll,allow me to wear.

.....if I were a roleplay character.


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I play over roll20, so I google search images to use for tokens of monsters and npcs (and PCs whenever I get to play). Finding an orc (or half-orc) that isn't some giant axe wielding mouth open screaming spiked bodybuilder is impossible (I was trying to find a half-orc druid. After about 5 hours I finally came across one). Female dwarves, gnolls (these suffer from the same image homogeneity of orcs), goblins (I either find Pathfinder goblins or Warcraft goblins, which both are bleh), and many others. If I had any sort of artistic talent, I'd just draw what I would need and not bother with the frustration of trying to find an orc in full plate that isn't dark and full of spikes, or a goblin or hobgoblin (searching hobgoblin puts out too many Marvel Hobgoblin images).

Sovereign Court

This discussion reminds me of those Brawny man commercials about a decade ago. Some beefcake in flannel would chop down a tree into firewood then come in and make dinner or something along those lines.

I tried to youtube and came across something called Brawnymanacademy.com but don't have the time to investigate because I have some work to do. Maybe later or someone can beat me to it.

Silver Crusade

Pan wrote:

This discussion reminds me of those Brawny man commercials about a decade ago. Some beefcake in flannel would chop down a tree into firewood then come in and make dinner or something along those lines.

I tried to youtube and came across something called Brawnymanacademy.com but don't have the time to investigate because I have some work to do. Maybe later or someone can beat me to it.

Found something better.

Liberty's Edge

Standards of beauty vary from group to group. I still remember reading the letter section of Dragon Magazine from the 3E days. They but a picture of a buff male character on the cover. Blonde, muscular, six pack the works. Then they received letters from male readers being bothered by it. You could say triggered before it became the standard. As apparently they were not allowed to have such characters on their cover as some male readers felt self-conscious.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

DrDeth wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Of course, there's an element of false equivalency there—scantily-clad dudes in fantasy art are often more about male empowerment than fanservice for women and non-straight gamers. With scantily-clad women, I think we all recognize it's the other way around.

There's also the "if they both exist at all, then there must not be an imbalance" issue that's being ignored.

Sure, there are plenty of loincloth-toting male barbarians. These are mirrored by the pelt-bikini female barbarians.

But then there's also the sexy female mages, sexy female archers, sexy female bards, sexy female assassins, sexy female tavern servers, and so forth. Where are the male counterparts for these?

Yeah, sorry, crying "But barbarians!" isn't enough to support a claim that "there's plenty of beefcake as well as cheesecake".

I just went to Pinterest and found plenty of all those guys.

I bet you didn't have to venture outside the gaming world and go to places like Pinterest to find the ladies, though.


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Jiggy wrote:
DrDeth wrote:


I just went to Pinterest and found plenty of all those guys.
I bet you didn't have to venture outside the gaming world and go to places like Pinterest to find the ladies, though.

I didnt "have" to go to Pinterest, they are everywhere. Just plain google does it.


I assume by sexy we are actually meaning scantily clad lots of skin showing armor not actually protecting the body properly.


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I have never been happy with any search I have ever done on google for

sexy female goblin

Silver Crusade

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Terquem wrote:

I have never been happy with any search I have ever done on google for

sexy female goblin

*googles exactly that*

Your standards are too high.


Terquem wrote:

I have never been happy with any search I have ever done on google for

sexy female goblin

http://img08.deviantart.net/7f5a/i/2011/068/a/9/goblin_queen_by_kharnage_by _thesteampunker-d3bazil.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/cb/6d/e0/cb6de0c0ad53461dc22595d2 fe9c648d.jpg


Talonhawke wrote:
I assume by sexy we are actually meaning scantily clad lots of skin showing armor not actually protecting the body properly.

Not necessarily. There was a female paladin figure, with full plate, but still a feminine figure, flowing hair, determined expression, kinda Joan of Arc look, that I thought was very hot.


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Oh, don't get me wrong, there are sexy female goblins on teh internets, I'm just usually not happy with the overall search results...


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DrDeth wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
I assume by sexy we are actually meaning scantily clad lots of skin showing armor not actually protecting the body properly.
Not necessarily. There was a female paladin figure, with full plate, but still a feminine figure, flowing hair, determined expression, kinda Joan of Arc look, that I thought was very hot.

That's where I was headed if we use that standard then male and female tend run fairly close, I rarely see ugly art period.

Scarab Sages

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DungeonmasterCal wrote:
We tried using a card table set up in the middle of our living room for the battle mat but having everyone get up from their seats (we sit on couches around the living room) and walk over and back again just took up too much time. When we played at FLGS we used it more, as we had larger tables and we could all sit at the same table to use the mat, but I'm not able to play there anymore because of my anxiety issues. So we just went back to doing things the old way. It works for us and has for 30 years. My group most likely wouldn't mesh well with others as we've rarely played with people outside our group so we all know how each other is going to play. Playing with mats and minis just isn't our bag.

You've got to do what works best for you. But I would like to offer that should you ever want to use minis, when we play around the coffee table the people who are seated closest to it take care of moving things so the other players don't have to get up every time it's their turn. Of course, that only works if you have players who are comfortable with letting someone else handle their minis.

Back to the discussion of minis - I also have a grievance that Reaper doesn't put out a mini for every playable Pathfinder race. There is yet to be a vanara mini that I'm aware of, or a wayang, or vishkanya.


Dire Elf wrote:


Back to the discussion of minis - I also have a grievance that Reaper doesn't put out a mini for every playable Pathfinder race. There is yet to be a vanara mini that I'm aware of, or a wayang, or vishkanya.

Yes, good points.


Look at This!

Now bleach your brain.

Several players decided they wanted to play half orc or half ogre female barbarians. It's a playable build. There's never been a problem.


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Dire Elf wrote:
You've got to do what works best for you. But I would like to offer that should you ever want to use minis, when we play around the coffee table the people who are seated closest to it take care of moving things so the other players don't have to get up every time it's their turn. Of course, that only works if you have players who are comfortable with letting someone else handle their minis.

No one has any issues in my group with handling each others' dice or minis. To us that's one of the silliest things imaginable.

As far as a coffee table goes, our set up is 3 couches and a very wide easy chair in a circle in the living room. There's a table for me and my set up, a table for the snacks, and a table for a couple of the other players who bring laptops. I don't think we'd have room for anything else, so that's another reason we don't use the mat. The mat is handy, don't get me wrong, and it certainly has its place in the game. We just haven't found an effective way to use it.

Scarab Sages

DungeonmasterCal wrote:


As far as a coffee table goes, our set up is 3 couches and a very wide easy chair in a circle in the living room. There's a table for me and my set up, a table for the snacks, and a table for a couple of the other players who bring laptops. I don't think we'd have room for anything else, so that's another reason we don't use the mat. The mat is handy, don't get me wrong, and it certainly has its place in the game. We just haven't found an effective way to use it.

My friend's house has a similar setup, but there's only one couch. Sounds like his living room might have a bit more free space than where you play. But they're supposed to be receiving an Ultimate Gaming Table very soon, so we'll see what our sessions are like once that's been set up!

Now on to another grumble. I was reviewing 7th level cleric spells, as my cleric in Kingmaker has just leveled up. There's a spell called 'Regenerate', and the description says that it will regrow severed limbs. But there's no real mechanic for severing limbs in Pathfinder, so how is that property of the spell useful?

My first roleplaying experience was with RuneQuest, which uses hit locations, and hit points and AC are assigned by body part. In that system you can have 2 points of armor on both arms, or no armor on your arms, or 2 points on one arm and none on the other. I'll admit that it's some extra bookkeeping, but I never found it too difficult to manage. It means that your character can lose a limb or an eye - permanently. I miss that level of detail in d20 games.


Dire Elf wrote:

Now on to another grumble. I was reviewing 7th level cleric spells, as my cleric in Kingmaker has just leveled up. There's a spell called 'Regenerate', and the description says that it will regrow severed limbs. But there's no real mechanic for severing limbs in Pathfinder, so how is that property of the spell useful?

My first roleplaying experience was with RuneQuest, which uses hit locations, and hit points and AC are assigned by body part. In that system you can have 2 points of armor on both arms, or no armor on your arms, or 2 points on one arm and none on the other. I'll admit that it's some extra bookkeeping, but I never found it too difficult to manage. It means that your character can lose a limb or an eye - permanently. I miss that level of detail in d20 games.

The old 1e "Good Hits and Bad Misses" critical and fumble charts are great for this sort of thing. It's not hard to convert them to PF, even on the fly, and yeah, you can crit yourself and die. My players were all like "Chart! Chart! Chart!" and when I said they applied to PCs and NPCs alike they changed their minds... lol

Sovereign Court

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Dire Elf wrote:


Now on to another grumble. I was reviewing 7th level cleric spells, as my cleric in Kingmaker has just leveled up. There's a spell called 'Regenerate', and the description says that it will regrow severed limbs. But there's no real mechanic for severing limbs in Pathfinder, so how is that property of the spell useful?

My first roleplaying experience was with RuneQuest, which uses hit locations, and hit points and AC are assigned by body part. In that system you can have 2 points of armor on both arms, or no armor on your arms, or 2 points on one arm and none on the other. I'll admit that it's some extra bookkeeping, but I never found it too difficult to manage. It means that your character can lose a limb or an eye - permanently. I miss that level of detail in d20 games.

Id prefer to stick to PF way of things and leaving limb/eye/etc severing to special instances that require saves.


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Middle Earth Role Playing Game had the best critical hit tables. :-)


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Runequest

uh, akh...guh...buh, arggggh


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I might apply a maiming in place of death in some of my games.

Sovereign Court

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Its turkey day (happy thanksgiving) and its time to start preparing......I really shouldnt have participated in drinksgiving last night........Nothing a glass of wine wont fix :)


My current grievance it's 2 weeks till I have vacation but FFXV is sitting at my house wanting me to play.

Scarab Sages

Our Pathfinder session scheduled for last Sunday was canceled due to GM illness. At this rate we won't finish his AP until 2020. We've been playing it off and on since 2012.

Just to make my frustration worse, I'd really rather be playing a different AP with a different GM. But he's not scheduled to run his AP again until at least January - more likely February with all the interruptions the holidays will probably bring.

Did I mention I dislike the way other people's social lives and families interrupt my gaming schedule? ;)


Captain Yesterday Smurf wrote:
Middle Earth Role Playing Game had the best critical hit tables. :-)

Oh MERP, how I miss you. This was actually the first system i ever used.

lvl 1 Magician can boil water (barely)
lvl 1 Warrior can chop off your head (accidentally, with 1 attack. Remember to wear your helmet kids)

Sigh, best crit tables ever

I was fighting an orc who crit-fumbled once, bit his own tongue off and choked to death on it the next round. Good times.

EDIT: why did my portrait change? i became a smurf for replying to a smurf?


I'm smurfing everyone for the holidays! :-)


Captain Yesterday Smurf wrote:
I'm smurfing everyone for the holidays! :-)

SMURF YOU TINY BLUE MAN!!!


Dire Elf wrote:
Did I mention I dislike the way other people's social lives and families interrupt my gaming schedule? ;)

Real Life is tireless in its war against Fantasy (and Fiction in general). I think it's just jealous about us having other lives than it.


I'm waiting for my real life to begin

heeeeyyyyyyyeeeyyyyaaaa

Scarab Sages

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Terquem wrote:

I'm waiting for my real life to begin

heeeeyyyyyyyeeeyyyyaaaa

I want my real life to be gaming and painting miniatures. And I want to get paid for doing it, but not have to fulfill any quotas or pass any performance reviews. Just this is what I want to do, and I need money for food and shelter.

Scarab Sages

Apparently I'm a complainer.

I can't help feeling frustrated by RPGs with pseudo-medieval fantasy settings that let too many modern anachronisms sneak in. I was reminded of this the other day when during a Pathfinder AP, our party were searching a ghost town that had been abandoned for centuries, and found a shop named 'Shiny Baubles'. I think that was actually in the AP, not an invention by the GM.

Naming places of business like that is something that probably didn't happen in the Middle Ages. In the 15th century when you went to a shop, it was likely named for the person or family who owned it, or for the goods or services that it provided. You didn't go to Shiny Things to get your jewelry appraised, or A Stitch In Time for your clothing; you went to the guild of goldsmiths or silversmiths for jewelry, and you might go to a shop simply called 'Tailor Shop' for your clothes. If there were 20 tailor shops in the city, then you went to the tailor shop on Needle Street or the tailor shop next door to Tanner's Alley.

The prevalence of inns and the treatment of them as if they were modern hotel/restaurant chains also bothers me. In a medieval society you wouldn't have inns in every town. When you got to a small town or village you might have to sleep in a barn or field, or if you were lucky a local might put you up for the night but you'd probably have to share a bed. Those few inns in large cities would only have one or two private rooms if any. The rest of the guests would sleep on the floor or simple cots in a dormitory-type room. And you would go to an eating house to get food, and a bathhouse to bathe.

I realize that making it more like modern things is simple because these things are familiar to us. Most of us can imagine sleeping in a hotel and eating in a full-service restaurant, but we may not know what it's like to sleep on a dirt floor in an unheated room with 20 other people and some farm animals, or in a pile of hay in a barn, or in a shared bed with an entire family in a one-room house. But I can't help feeling like I've lost part of the experience of roleplaying in another world when everything is made to work just like it does in reality.


Dire Elf wrote:
Terquem wrote:

I'm waiting for my real life to begin

heeeeyyyyyyyeeeyyyyaaaa

I want my real life to be gaming and painting miniatures. And I want to get paid for doing it, but not have to fulfill any quotas or pass any performance reviews. Just this is what I want to do, and I need money for food and shelter.

I'm not positive, but maybe my Colin Hay impression didn't translate through the webfilters...

anyway, I hope you find that whatever you do it makes you happy and allows for you to do those other things as often as you can

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