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So, I am looking to create a Spear and Shield build for PFS.
I doesn't have to be an actual Spear, as the Simple weapon, but more or less, very Spear-like.
So, here are the important parts:
1) Human.
2) Uses a Spear(or like) and Shield. Not necessarily two-weapon fighting.
3) No armor. Shield only.
So, what are your suggestions? How can this, what seems basic, concept work?
Sohei Monk and either take feat for shield use or dip into Phalanc fighter for the ability to use a polearm one handed.
Nope sorry just double checked it. A Sohei can flurry in light armor but not with a shield and you lose the monk ac bonus and flurry if you use a shield so its a terrible suggestion.
Only other thing that occurs to me is a fighter with 16 or higher Dex plus dodge and shield focus which nets you an AC of 17 at level 1. Not amazing but I can not think of any mechanic that works with your concept except for domain abilities (ie ice or wind armor) or such.
Fighter (Viking), perhaps? Go all-in on the archetype's shield benefits. Only trick is one-handed spear use, as by RAW you'd have to suffer with using the short spear.
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We have a spear-and-shield viking fighter in our Reign of Winter group. He does TWF with a shortspear and heavy spiked shield. His AC is pretty ridiculous, although the high point buy and armor help.
You might want to check out the Shield-Trained trait.
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The real trouble with this concept, of course, is that the spear is pretty denigrated in D&D/Pathfinder - a weapon for people who haven't been trained with anything better.
One way to make this, as you say, very simple concept work is to add more complexity to it by sticking a horse underneath it. A cavalier (or any other mounted warrior) can wield a lance one-handed.
A much less ambitious thing to do would be to settle for a shortspear, a simple one-handed weapon that's been on the books since 3.0, yet remains commonly overlooked - this is because it's a very humdrum weapon, like a club that can be thrown farther. It would, however, mean that you could freely play the concept as a Rogue, Cleric, Oracle, Druid, Bard, or Occultist (but is sounds like you want to be, you know, a warrior-warrior).
Other spear-like one-handed weapons for a more discriminating wielder of weapons would include the ankus (which is conducive to disarm and trip maneuvers) and the trident (a unique niche weapon that you can both throw and brace).
*facepalm* I can't believe that I forgot about the trident. Trident-n-heavy-shield Viking should fit the bill nicely, or that whole swashing of buckles thing. ;)
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A trident is a one handed piercing weapon which does a d8 and you have the option to throw it. Or can you can use a scizore which does a d10 but i honestly can't take it seriously.
This big issue is "no armor" for a melee warrior, especially without monk-like options due to the shield. Oracle would work, if you don't mind wind/elemental armors as some have suggested, as well as a mage armor buddy if possible.
Bracers of armor are pricy, but might work eventually.
Armor is the easiest big boost to AC, especially at low levels. You might just need to pile on as many other AC sources as you can, as quickly as you can.
That, or go the barbarian route and put everything towards a massive amount of HP. Just try to kill everything ASAP.
The dervish swashbuckler I'm seeing can only finesse a scimitar.
Dex focus is a good idea though, and doable with vanilla swashbuckler. Haven't looked to hard at archetypes.
I think the phalanx fighter gets special bonuses for using s pole arm one handed.
I think the phalanx fighter gets special bonuses for using s pole arm one handed.
It does, but it doesn't get the shield-based goodies that seem to be sought after, thus the Viking archetype suggestion instead of Phalanx Fighter.
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That's one thought, but I could just as easily wield a small Longspear.
Brawler came to mind, but there really isn't a Spear-like weapon they can flurry with, and I don't know of a way to change that, or if I missed a weapon that fit the bill, and could actually be used with Brawler's flurry.
Brawlers can flurry with monk weapons, so you can flurry a Tiger Fork.
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Thunder and Fang lets you wield an Earth Breaker and a Klar (light shield with spikes) without penalties. Yeah, a huge hammer is not very spear-ish, but, in my opinion, this is the cool thing about gdr: that thing called "earth breaker" on your sheet is actually a very heavily reinforced quarterstaff and anyone saying otherwise is a metagamer :P .
FYI: Pathfinder doesn't contain any rule about reach of inappropriately sized weapons, but PF comes from D&D, and back there:
"A wielder gains no reach from a reach weapon that is too small. No additional reach is granted by a reach weapon that is too big." [Rules Compendium].
So, I think it's ok to play a medium character with a small spear and reach in PFS, but it may see variations at home games.
...might want to consider deflect arrows, BBT
BBT, I would suggest you make a arcane bloodrager with a 3 level dip in phalanx fighter.
Fighter levels get you the ability to wield polearms 1 handed.
Big hit point pool with rage helps alleviate the problem of armor.
Rage can help bring your damage up to par.
Arcane bloodline powers can grant your blur, and at the end of your career displacement.
You can get access to spells like Mirror Image.
For such a build your going to want all the damage avoidance you can get, since you're going to be eschewing the common way of avoiding hits (AC). Anything that grants a mischance will be incredibly valuable.
If you can stomach just using a short spear, you can take all levels in bloodrager and that would probably be a stronger way to go overall. Gets you access to spells and bloodline powers earlier.
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Basically, imagine a random Spartan Soldier from 300.
Just a little bit like that, with possibly a few liberties.
So, magically summoned Armor and Shield, doesn't exactly fit the vague thematic scheme.
Also, I don't give two craps about class names. Just thought I would point that out, as I don't restrict myself that way.
Remember as well, that PFS caps at 12, so it's not worth looking beyond that.
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I just realized, the Whirling Dervish, with three levels of Phalanx Fighter, would allow me to finesse a Longspear, and get dex to damage.
Just a thought.
Frankly - the lack of armor still hurts. The only two combatants made to work sans armor (monk & kensai) both lose their AC bonuses when using a shield.
Though I think that Dervish Finesse doesn't work when using a shield. (unclear whether that's only with a scimitar)
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Ancestors oracle you can use ahort spear and shield. Just that your armor is invisible on using that revelation.
But in 300, no magicky, so yeah there might be a problem regarding anything to do with any magicky thingies. Back to the drawing board.
Urban barbarian to rage for dex, find a way to get dex to damage, use invulnerable rager for DR? Would it be possible to get the stalwart line going to get epic silly DR? Its MAD though, unless you dip brawler 1.
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I will point out - though virtually everyone probably already knows - that the historical 300 actually wore what would probably translate to a breastplate - pretty much the heaviest armor of the time period.
Actually - the armor/shield difference was one reason why they crushed the Persians. The Persians were really more of skirmishers - using wicker shields and little to no armor. (wicker shields are great vs archers - but a hopilite spear would punch right through it) And the Greeks forced them into a close quarters brawl using their mountainous terrain.
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As I said, I am willing to take a few liberties.
Just, you know, as close as I can, but without being too mechanically inferior.
If you're willing to go with light armor but want the 300 style combat - primarily a brawler would be the way to go. Flurry with the shield most of the time, and have the spear for AOOs. (I've done similar with unarmed builds - just holding a reach weapon and kicking.)
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Whirling dervish does not allow dex to dmg if you're using a shield.
It doesn't allow dex to damage, with a Scimitar, as you only gain the benefit of it counting as a Piercing weapon, when you have a free hand.
Dervish Finesse (Ex)
A whirling dervish can treat a scimitar as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for the purposes of the swashbuckler's finesse and all feats and class abilities that refer to such a weapon. She must not be carrying a weapon or shield in her off hand to gain this benefit.
This ability alters swashbuckler finesse.
So, to use the Swashbuckler's Finesse, which is not replaced, with a scimitar, you need a free hand. That restriction is not for any other weapon.
Dervish Dance (Ex)
At 4th level, a whirling dervish can use her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier on melee damage rolls when using her swashbuckler finesse. She counts as having the Dervish Dance feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.
This does not just apply to the Scimitar, and requires no free hand.
Basically, this is the only way to get an effect similar to the old Slashing Grace.
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If you're willing to go with light armor but want the 300 style combat - primarily a brawler would be the way to go. Flurry with the shield most of the time, and have the spear for AOOs. (I've done similar with unarmed builds - just holding a reach weapon and kicking.)As I said, I am willing to take a few liberties.
Just, you know, as close as I can, but without being too mechanically inferior.
You know, that's not bad. Are Brawlers still not proficient with Shields as armor?
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Brawlers are proficient with shields and light armor. I think if it were me, I'd just go straight urban barbarian and invulnerable rager all the way, but str build, around 14 dex. Dip 1 lv brawler, get Stalwart line. Stick to short spear and shield. Else its 4 lvs to do dex to dmg, another 3 more to get a reach weapon >.<
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Suggest the following stat line up:
Str 16, dex 14, con 16, int 10, wis 10, cha 10.
1 Urban Barbarian and invulnerable rager: Toughness, Power attack
2 Urban Barbarian and invulnerable rager: Superstition
3 Brawler: Combat expertise
4 Unbreakable fighter (gets you endurance and diehard)
5 Urban barbarian and invulnerable rager :Stalwart
Oh don't forget your 3 ranks in acrobatics.
If you wanted to you can skip brawler levels by taking combat expertise normally.
I.e. 16 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 14 int, 10 wis, 10 cha.
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Oh, here's another thread. Involves using crane style instead, apparently its better then combat expertise for attack penalties to dodge AC, which translates to DR.
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By the way, has anyone else seen the new Urban Bloodrager.
It's on page 24 of the Pathfinder Player Companion: Heroes of the Street.
The important part, is it's Controlled Rage:
Controlled Bloodrage:
When an urban bloodrager rages, she does not gain the normal benefits. Instead, she can apply a +4 morale bonus to her Constitution, Dexterity, or Strength. This bonus increases to +6 when she gains greater bloodrage and to +8 when she gains mighty bloodrage. She can apply the full bonus to one ability score or split the bonus between several scores in increments of 2. When using a controlled bloodrage, an urban bloodrager gains no bonus on Will saves, takes no penalties to AC, and can still use Charisma-, Dexterity-, and Intelligence-based skills. A controlled bloodrage still counts as a bloodrage for the purposes of any spells, feats, and other effects. This ability alters bloodrage.
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If I was going Dex, I would rather have Whirling Dervish, than Rogue.
Does whirling Dervish grant dex to damage? I've thought about building a dex based spear and shield fighter, since in my experience most fantasy spear wielders are dex based, and could only find a level 3 unchained rogue dip for dex to damage. Pretty ridiculous you can get dex to damage with a battleaxe easier than with a shortspear :(
Personally, I feel you'll get much more mileage out of a swashbuckler build since IMHO they are the only way to build an effective sword and board PC because they can pump out equivalent, and debatably more, than a 2HF. Some claim daring champion is better for it's nova but I still prefer a swash for more consistent DPR,
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You know, that's not bad. Are Brawlers still not proficient with Shields as armor?If you're willing to go with light armor but want the 300 style combat - primarily a brawler would be the way to go. Flurry with the shield most of the time, and have the spear for AOOs. (I've done similar with unarmed builds - just holding a reach weapon and kicking.)As I said, I am willing to take a few liberties.
Just, you know, as close as I can, but without being too mechanically inferior.
It doesn't really matter much if they are or not past 1st level. Just get a darkwood shield and it has 0 penalty. (or mithril if you feel like being a big spender)
I only sort of skimmed this far, bbt, but I'd consider three levels of phalanx fighter and then go into some combination of swashbuckler and/or urban savage barbarian. Of course, this requires having a GM that agrees that a phalanx fighter can take slashing grace for glaive (I think it works, some people probably disagree)