I was wondering, has anyone ever seen a character actually counterspell something?
You have to know (and have prepared if you're a prepared caster) any spell you want to counter and expend one of your own uses of that spell. But in order to do that you have to ready an action. So you have to gamble your own turn on the chance that your opponent is going to cast a spell that you have ready and that has you within its range on their next turn and then still have to succeed at a spellcraft check.
This seems like such an unlikely gamble that I don't ever see a counterspell happen in an actual game of Pathfinder. And in my hisory of playing 3rd edition since 3.0 through PF I have never seen anyone even attempt to counterspell anything.
So what about you? Have you ever seen someone attempt a counterspell? Did it work? Was it worth it?
Never seen anyone try.
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A couple of times.
He was an Arcanist.
A couple of times.
He was an Arcanist.
Did he use the counterspell exploit, or regular counterspelling?
I've done it myself with an arcanist exploit, and I played with someone in PFS once who was a counterspelling specialist. Don't ask me for the build though.
Hmmmm. Never. A couple of ready action duspel magics.
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A counterspell spell in the vein of Magic: The Gathering, where counterspelling is all it can do and it's cast as an immediate action, seems like an awfully reasonable 4th- or 5th-level spell. As a matter of fact, having thought of it, I'm really surprised neither Wizards of the Coast nor Paizo thought of/implemented it before.
Alternatively, how about a feat that enabled you to counterspell using the same spell of your own as an immediate action?
Magic Missiles is 90% of the times a better counterspell than Dispel Magic.
Magic Missiles is 90% of the times a better counterspell than Dispel Magic.
I've seen this a few times but how? Readied actions trigger before the trigger so I don't get how the concentration check of taking damage while casting applies. They seem like very discreet events. Counterspelling via a readied action reads like a very special case.
I have done it as a GM, but the NPC was designed for it. I have also had it happen to me as a player.
Recently my arcanist has done it.
Magic Missiles is 90% of the times a better counterspell than Dispel Magic.
Absolutly.
The current "official" way to handle counterspelling is rubbish. Too many restrictions and gambles. Never worth it.
Magic Missiles is 90% of the times a better counterspell than Dispel Magic.I've seen this a few times but how? Readied actions trigger before the trigger so I don't get how the concentration check of taking damage while casting applies. They seem like very discreet events. Counterspelling via a readied action reads like a very special case.
You set your trigger for "after he started casting, i will do XYZ"
not at "when he starts casting" when you want to force a high concentration check via dealt damage.
Yes
Magic missile is theoretically useful as a 'counter' to spellcasting but as it is trivial to block in practice is rarely useful. Shield or a broach of Shielding renders it pointless
The main problem with counterspelling is that most enemy spellcasters are overleveled bosses. Thus, the PCs cannot counterspell (except with Dispel Magic, which has it's own problems), and action economy does not favor readied-action counterspells from the NPC.
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Yup, in PFS even. Local Thassalonion Abjurer Counterspell Specialist. He's pretty good at it, now that he's higher level. It also lets others get a bit more time on screen when his actions are 'ready for counter. ready for counter. ready for counter.' But when it works, it definitely works and is worth it.
I have a tiefling witch who's somewhat specialized in counter-spelling, but that's the only one I can remember.
I've done it against a few boss-type mages, including a brain ooze. I played a magus, who can recall dispel magic as needed.
As a GM, my Big Bads always have a group of sorcerers acting as "spell bodyguards" who spend each turn readying actions to counterspell the party.
A counterspell spell in the vein of Magic: The Gathering, where counterspelling is all it can do and it's cast as an immediate action, seems like an awfully reasonable 4th- or 5th-level spell. As a matter of fact, having thought of it, I'm really surprised neither Wizards of the Coast nor Paizo thought of/implemented it before.
There is a 3rd level (I think) counterspell that works like that in 5th edition.
Alternatively, how about a feat that enabled you to counterspell using the same spell of your own as an immediate action?
There was a feat that done that in 3.0 or 3.5. I don't recall it appearing in Pathfinder but I wasn't particularly looking for counterspell optimization.
Counterspelling in combat is rarely worth it because of action economy. In big fights a multiple lower level casters with buffed dispel magic can make a good support for the opponents reading actions to counterspell party's magic, but the players rarely have the numbers to pull out that trick.
It makes sense in non-combat encounters, for example a royal audience where king is protected by two or three court wizards with readied counterspells.
I find the opposite with regards to action economy. It is not uncommon for a group of PC's to face a single powerful spellcaster and bodyguards. In such a situation a PC spellcaster giving up his action to negate the actions of the enemy spellcaster can be a sound tactic as the rest of the PC's can then use their actions to eliminate the main threat of the Enemy caster without him being able to use powerful spells
I played a counterspell specialist once... it was a school specialist Arcanist with specialization in Dispelling subschool.
Now granted I built her to be a anti mage more than anything... (Anti magic field on a stealthed bat is kinda funny :p). Used counter spells, traps, AMF... also took advantage pf the exploits to let me gain control of spells...
Oh and my favorite M:tG deck os stasis lol. Because saying no is so satisfying
No, there should be a feat that lets you counter as an interrupt action that costs your next turn's standard action. Then you could have an improved version come online at 10th level (wizard bonus feat eligible) that let you interrupt to counter and it would cost you your next turn's move action. Prerequisite for both would be improved counterspell naturally.
That would be a feat chain actually worth taking.
Haven't seen it, but I've been somewhat interested in trying to make one that can use it as an immediate action. The only ones I'm aware of are abjuration wizards and arcanists.
I have but typically it is with a character set up for it (like what Keith Apperson has).
It really depends on what is happening thought, if I've cast the spells we needed and we are just waiting for the rest of the team to drain the hp I'll ready to counter just to keep things going the way I want.
A sorcerer/oracle in a game I'm in used it a few times, and if she hadn't the level nine sorcerer would've been wrecking the party.
Did he use the counterspell exploit, or regular counterspelling?A couple of times.
He was an Arcanist.
Exploit, of course. Why would he waste his turn?
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How do we explain "counterspelling" with a damaging spell? I have some difficulty with this.
Say I declare a ready action to cast magic missile at the BBEG when I see him casting a spell. BBEG then begins casting, and let's assume he's casting something with a casting time of one standard action.
Question: how do I manage to complete the whole of my magic missile spell before the BBEG finishes his casting, when the BBEG started casting before I did and the two spells have the same casting time?
How do we explain "counterspelling" with a damaging spell? I have some difficulty with this.
Say I declare a ready action to cast magic missile at the BBEG when I see him casting a spell. BBEG then begins casting, and let's assume he's casting something with a casting time of one standard action.
Question: how do I manage to complete the whole of my magic missile spell before the BBEG finishes his casting, when the BBEG started casting before I did and the two spells have the same casting time?
You're the faster draw.
The archetypw is kinda limited though since it only works for conjuration.,,
I've seen it happen a couple times, but that was mostly all in one scenario. Our magus used counterspells to help us get through an area with a bunch of shadow demons while we huddled in a daylight spell with next to no gear. Though, I think that they were using a mythic path ability to do that as opposed to usual counterspelling.
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You're the faster draw.How do we explain "counterspelling" with a damaging spell? I have some difficulty with this.
Say I declare a ready action to cast magic missile at the BBEG when I see him casting a spell. BBEG then begins casting, and let's assume he's casting something with a casting time of one standard action.
Question: how do I manage to complete the whole of my magic missile spell before the BBEG finishes his casting, when the BBEG started casting before I did and the two spells have the same casting time?
One standard action for me uses less time than it does for the BBEG? It doesn't make sense. Especially given that the roles can be reversed; that BBEG can counterspell me with his readied magic missile.
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One standard action for me uses less time than it does for the BBEG? It doesn't make sense. Especially given that the roles can be reversed; that BBEG can counterspell me with his readied magic missile.
It takes less time to cast a readied spell than to cast a spell normally. Possibly due to already having your component pouch or basic verbal components ready.
I have it happen to me (the DM) All The Time.
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Counterspell is very hard to pull off in Pathfinder.
First, you need to prepare an action to do it. If the enemy caster do something else (using a magic item, a spell-like ability, etc...), you've wasted your turn.
Then, you need to identify the enemy spell. It's somewhat easy for a wizard (well, beyond the first couple levels anyway), but may be much harder for a cleric, a druid or a sorcerer (because they have low INT and not always the skill points to have full skill ranks in spellcraft).
If you did prepare an action to counter the enemy spellcaster, that this enemy actually did cast a spell and you managed to identify that spell, you still have several ways to waste your action :
- You need either the exact spell or dispel magic. If you don't, you're done. There are some rare exceptions (haste and slow, light spells against darkness spells, ...).
- If you try with dispel magic, you need to do a caster level check and reach a DC of 11+caster level of the enemy. It means that against a guy of your level, you have 50% chance of countering the spell and 50% chance of wasting your turn AND a dispel magic spell.
- You need to be in range of the enemy spell. If the enemy cast a personal spell, you're done. If the enemy cast a touch spell and you're not at touch range, you're done.
- The wording of the counterspells in the magic Chapter may implies you need to be able to target the enemy spellcaster when readying your action. Which means that if the caster is invisible, you're done (because you can't target him).
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One standard action for me uses less time than it does for the BBEG? It doesn't make sense. Especially given that the roles can be reversed; that BBEG can counterspell me with his readied magic missile.It takes less time to cast a readied spell than to cast a spell normally. Possibly due to already having your component pouch or basic verbal components ready.
That seems plausible, however I have not identified the BBEG's spell when I ready my action, so how do I know which components to ready? If the opponent casts a fireball I better have my bat guano in hand, but what if he casts confusion instead? It's potentially a moot point if we're using improve counterspell or dispel magic, but such is not always the case.
Also, should we assume that a potential caster knows that someone is readying an action to counter if he can see or otherwise detect you?
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That seems plausible, however I have not identified the BBEG's spell when I ready my action, so how do I know which components to ready? If the opponent casts a fireball I better have my bat guano in hand, but what if he casts confusion instead? It's potentially a moot point if we're using improve counterspell or dispel magic, but such is not always the case.
You know that you need to be ready to cast some spell, so you ready to grab whatever components you need, and possibly call to mind the basics of spellcasting that apply to all spells. It's the difference between putting your hand on your belt versus it hovering over your pistol in a gun duel.
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Ready an action to counterspell is just like readying and action to hit a pitch in baseball. All of the time consuming (standard action) stuff like lining up on the plate and getting the bat in place happened on your turn so all you have to do is swing. Same with the spell.
I've seen it once in PFS. A wizard used Daylight to counterspell the Deeper Darkness of a shadow demon. Of course, the shadow demon just used Deeper Darkness again the next turn, and we were still screwed.
That seems like the main way it would be used.
Those super obvious situations where the monster's entire gimmick is almost entirely predicated on a specific spell or SLA, so you KNOW what they are going to do.
...it might be easier with kineticists out though, since their blasts are appropriately descriptored SLAs.
And admittedly, kineticists make interesting BBEGs. I mean...while their mechanics are ok within the normal, intense, and short realm of battles seen in adventuring, they would be absolute terrors in battlefields with normal soldiers (who...lets face it- the rank and file are going to be like...level 5, tops- because otherwise, why would adventurers be needed?).
Think about a high level geokineticist- it is hard for the common soldier to get through their DR (in a way that would be impractical to arm anything other than the most elite soldiers to counter, cause...arming an entire army with admanatine anything is expensive- even 10 blanch arrows could costs 10k for a battalion...and most of that will miss due to magic armor). Also, he can shoot his blasts from the edge of bow range, he can move 480 in a single action with ride the blast (seriously, that is about as fast as you can get without direct teleportation), he can dive underground WITH A 5' STEP (based on advice from Mark Seifter), and he can shoot out fragmentation and deadly earth infusion at will (with nice little bonuses like grappling or entangling)... honestly, it is not hard to imagine a geokineticist killing hundreds by himself. He just has to rocket in with a ride the blast, shoot off some AoE blasts, and eventually zoom out to use a wand of CLW
Now that is a villain- a caster with the power to personally go over and murder EVERYONE whenever he feels like it. That is the kind of thing that kings offer up his daughter's hand in marriage to get rid of.
Anyway, my point is...if you play them as obscene war potential they actually have in a broader context, you could totally make an enemy that you REALLY want to use counterspell on.
I definitely think it depends on the situation. Unless you know EXACTLY what you're up against, it's hard to prepare specific spells as counters, leaving us to Dispel Magic. The average fight lasts something like 4-5 rounds, and a mage might spend two or three of those casting buffs or battlefield control spells, which honestly doesn't leave a whole lot of room for doing other stuff.
Basically, it often comes down to "Do I cast something I KNOW will measurably help the party, or do I try to counterspell in the HOPE it will be useful?", and I think most people will choose the former. XD Of course, if they have both information and ability, counterspelling might become a real possibility in the game.
That said... yeah, a really determined Kineticist can be a nightmare for others to deal with. XD