Order of the Amber Die
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Once again, the pacing of this story is just right. I love how we waste no time whatsoever meeting the vast cast of characters and getting into the thick of the plot. But, of course it wouldn’t be like Elyana to not leave at least one loose end, such as the whole business with Onderan that they were on their way to investigate before the inciting incident. It’s turned darkly amusing to me now, but in this case the current situation absolutely warrants all hands on deck - Onderan can wait. The eidolon seems to be huge in size, thus putting the summoner at least 13th level, which as SO nasty! They already killed, what…five out of sixteen people and we still have as many chapters to go? Definitely one of the more powerful base classes, that’s a fact; Pathfinder Unchained tried to make them balanced, and barely succeeded. Good thing Elyana and Drelm vetted the volunteers and didn’t take a larger posse out, or there would be a lot more blood on the ground right now.
Now, about the structure – I like the change in points of view for this novel. Adding Drelm’s perspective was unexpected. (Looks like I was wrong about him and Elyana, haha.) However, it refreshing to see things from a different angle, because – how do I explain this – his is like a blunt instrument where Elyana is a precision tool, and he is devout and sentimental where Elyana is aloof and indifferent. I also liked how the conversations in Elven weren’t translated from his point of view, which made the interplay between Elyana and the other elves seem more natural, in a way, and obscured for the first time since we left her viewpoint. Then Lisette comes in with her own perspective and really throws things in for a loop! I was interesting to see Elyana and Drelm through the eyes of total outsider, and the scenes where she sized up Drelm actually revealed a lot about both of their characters. Drelm has really grown on me, as he obviously has on the Delgar locals, and he rightfully demands the respect he receives. He's solid. The whole situation with Lisette, on the other hand, begs so many questions: How does she fit into the dynamic of the group? When will her past come back to haunt her again? What will Elyana do since she knows about her? Do her former employers somehow associated with the summoner? Is she actually going to try to kill Drelm? Will she succeed?
I guess we shall see.
reading it ages ago, then working backwards through the series and then reading it again now leaves me... I dunno. I guess I can see what you mean, DB, about it being surprising that not only does it take on Drelm's perspective, but it tosses in this new gal too! Incidentally, like, is Lissette Lirianne's half-sister? sister from another mother? I swear to god I can't NOT picture Lirianna (the iconic gunslinger for those unaware) as Lisette herself.
it does make for a different story than expected. for me this was the second Pathfinder tale I'd ever read, and I only picked it up because the reviews said "summoner" and "hunting party"; I didn't know anything about what to expect from pathfinder tales novels at that point so I figured this one would maybe do well enough. gotta say, Elyana as a protagonist is a pretty solid intro to the series.
to the surprise of no one at this point, I have such mixed feelings about the whole "hunting party" story - like it's clear there's a big power difference between the baddie and the rest of the world. most of the npcs clearly have npc class levels, and even more clearly most of them are like, "warrior 2" IF they are even so lucky. most are something useless like "commoner 1" and there's not even the rare expert around to brew a potion. the comments about Howard Andrew Jones having a low magic setting are really felt very strongly here. there is literally nothing available to these guys!
the thing that I need help balancing in my mind with this is... okay, so this monster straight-up crunches people. like before we even see it come in we find it's crunched 4 elves in the time it takes to sound a horn, and then it crunches another elf and a human (of course, they are all warrior 2 and at this point it's like the South part Warcraft episode where they're sitting in the woods killing boars for 2 xp - it's going to take the summoner a loooooooooong long time to get a level out of this!). what makes this harder for me to balance in my head is how it can be both a "low magic" setting and also a "high death" setting - where there has to be an interminable supply of npc-classed individuals that just die and nobody cares (or at least, cares in the sense that they had any sort of emotional attachement to the individual). like even Drelm's to-be brother in law's death he's just like "yeah, kinda sad. but his death was honorable so w/e" and... yeah! I mean it's just really hard for me to get a feel for the world. Reading HAJ's comments in the previous thread (that it's largely his own interpretation) help's divorce it from the very underpopulated Pathfinder Official version, but... still people must cycle through friend-groups a few times a year by attrition alone!
although, you know I posted that and now I am imemdiately just like "but is this any different than, say, a dragon-hunting story where the dragon razes a few villages before the heroes bring it down?" technically it might number the same amount of deaths, and Pathfinder Official certainly offs enormous numbers of people from time to time without the exacting attention to the aftereffects of a city losing a full half it's population (for example). I dunno. what do you think about the attrition of forces in this book, DB? it certainly strikes out hard and hits FAST. I mean they lose their druid right at the very start - the druid who also happened to be their only healer outside of Elyana (and I mean damn relying on a druid for healing is bad enough but having to rely on the RANGER??).
at the same time, it ramps up the tension exponentially to have so few spellcasters period, much less a healer. also! I do want to say I do appreciate the bevy of classes HAJ dives into here - one of the first reviews I read for the book (and one that actually made me more inclined to buy it) was someone complaining that that there were "too many unusual classes" represented here - and like omg I love it so much! about a million useless npc warriors, an alchemist, a support-ranger, a level 1 sorceress, a summoner, and a gunslinger? like if you want to read about a main-character caster/rogue partying with a cleric and a fighter, go read something from faerun! I wish more people would use the newer classes!
The good guys got played pretty well in this one - I liked this one and the prequel a lot, though they're very different stories - the River Kingdoms 'wildness' and the resulting batch of frontier heroes was done nicely. Their just isn't the economy to support a big magic item bin - though I always like Golarion's approach: magic's there, it's dangerous, there's a lot of kinds, and it cheats. :)
I liked Drelm's parts - he's not the smartest guy, and that comes through, but he's very, very forthright, and that's worth a lot too. Elyana was really wrong about Drelm in the first book, but at least she had the chance to realize it, and I like their relationship here.
The beast in question is just nasty, and the scheme it's part of I thought was well thought out.
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I guess I can see what you mean, DB, about it being surprising that not only does it take on Drelm's perspective, but it tosses in this new gal too! Incidentally, like, is Lisette Lirianne's half-sister? sister from another mother? I swear to god I can't NOT picture Lirianne (the iconic gunslinger for those unaware) as Lisette herself.
Haha, Lirianne…I see the connection, and it’s possible they could be related in some way, familial or otherwise, as they're both from Alkenstar, but I agree that they seem too different. I was wondering when we were going to finally see a gunslinger in Pathfinder Tales. I like how Karag reloads for her. Must be nice to have a cohort! I wonder what class(es) he has, as we’ve never really seen him do much else.
to the surprise of no one at this point, I have such mixed feelings about the whole "hunting party" story - like it's clear there's a big power difference between the baddie and the rest of the world. most of the npcs clearly have npc class levels, and even more clearly most of them are like, "warrior 2" IF they are even so lucky. most are something useless like "commoner 1" and there's not even the rare expert around to brew a potion.
Since there were so many characters introduced in rapid succession, to keep them all straight in my head - and for fun - I actually created a spreadsheet that includes guesses as to what their classes would be. I put most of them as PC classes, but most at low levels. The only NPC classes I had were Poul (young human warrior 1) and Melias (young human adept 1) but I guess Marika and Grellen could be warriors instead of fighters, just higher level.
although, you know I posted that and now I am immediately just like "but is this any different than, say, a dragon-hunting story where the dragon razes a few villages before the heroes bring it down?" technically it might number the same amount of deaths, and Pathfinder Official certainly offs enormous numbers of people from time to time without the exacting attention to the aftereffects of a city losing a full half its population (for example). I dunno. what do you think about the attrition of forces in this book, DB? it certainly strikes out hard and hits FAST. I mean they lose their druid right at the very start - the druid who also happened to be their only healer outside of Elyana (and I mean damn relying on a druid for healing is bad enough but having to rely on the RANGER??).
Relying on a ranger for healing is super rough, especially without so much as a wand of CLW, but thankfully there are at least two of them, including Cyrelle, who I believe is a ranger (beast master) and at least 11th level to have seven hunting dogs. Illidian, Galarias, and Aladel may be rangers instead of warriors, but if so they either have the skirmisher archetype or are too inexperienced to cast spells yet, the latter of which being the least likely I think. As we all know, hit points are like currency, and when your party is broke…that’s that, soi this does not bode well and I expect many more deaths to come. However, the attrition of the NPCs does help to alleviate that with there being less people to heal, but that’s surely not a good way to look at it. I actually like the boldness of the death toll here. The author isn’t afraid to kill people off, make a dire situation that much more grim, and really push the survivors to stay as such. As you mentioned, the loss of the Oakfather not just early in the story, but so early in the encounter, was indeed a shock. But I believe that was the point, so let’s see how Elyana reacts with a body count of this magnitude once it’s all said and done. I liked the line Elyana threw at them at the meeting. “This monster’s vicious, and some of us are going to die.” Losing fellow adventurers is one thing, as they signed up for the job knowing the risks but many innocents have been killed so far, and many more will be if they don’t stop it, so these are different circumstances than when she lost her companions in the past, so perhaps she won’t be able to just shrug it off this time.
at the same time, it ramps up the tension exponentially to have so few spellcasters period, much less a healer. also! I do want to say I do appreciate the bevy of classes HAJ dives into here - one of the first reviews I read for the book (and one that actually made me more inclined to buy it) was someone complaining that that there were "too many unusual classes" represented here - and like omg I love it so much! about a million useless npc warriors, an alchemist, a support-ranger, a level 1 sorceress, a summoner, and a gunslinger? like if you want to read about a main-character caster/rogue partying with a cleric and a fighter, go read something from faerun! I wish more people would use the newer classes!
Someone said there were “too many unusual classes”? In my opinion there’s no such thing, there’s only unusual race and class combinations, individually and in a group. If I had to choose my biggest pet peeve in Pathfinder, its players who just grab whatever race and class they think is cool, then arm them with weapons and armor from all different regions, then supplant them in a module or adventure path that has nothing to do with their character. I totally get the appeal of the fish-out-of-water story, but it has to be deliberate and appropriately detailed, it shouldn’t just be “whatever” because the GM allows it or the player is adamant about it. But I completely agree that we should see more classes that Pathfinder brings to the table. The core classes are still exciting because of the archetype, but the base classes are all awesome, and we’ve been blessed to have read several PT novels with them thus far: James Sutter’s inquisitor, Tim Pratt’s alchemist, and now we have a summoner! Although he’s the antagonist it’s still tons of fun to see what he can do, and I hope other authors follow suit, as I’d love to see more of the new classes at some point. Especially the ACG hybrid classes, or even the new classes from Occult Adventures…
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Now onto Chapters Nine through Sixteen:
I'll say it again - fey are SO annoying! We discussed them way back on the first PTBC thread in The Crusader Road, then briefly during the next two in Death's Heretic and The Redemption Engine, and now we’re going to do it again in Stalking the Beast.
I see them as undisciplined children – loud, obnoxious, and can lead you to your doom if you don’t know how to deal with them – but much, much worse because of their damned spell-like abilities. [Someday I want to play a ranger with fey as my favored enemy and chase them around the forest with a fey bane composite longbow and cold iron arrows.] However, I must admit I really liked the interpretation of the changing seasons having to do with battling fey, and I can imagine it actually working that way.
Anyway, back to the main story…Howard Andrew Jones has done it again. Like in Plague of Shadows, he took this story to places I never thought it would go. Let’s walk through it: First we have a mad sorcerer killing people, which led us to the summoner, but just as we surmise the two may have been connected, the druids enter the fray and get in the way, then shortly after that the character we thought was the main antagonist is slain! Now we’re left with a conspiracy involving the druids and possibly another traitor in the group, threatening to be an even bigger problem than a huge rampaging monster in the woods.
Did I miss anything? Oh right – Razmir! Has he been this entire plot the whole time? Is this the wilderness version of an urban protection racket where they cause crimes then seem to prevent them to deceive the victimized citizens to flock to their religion? Ugh. I hate Razmir almost as much as fey. I ran the Masks of the Living God module several years ago and learned a lot about their so-called religion, and although it’s masterfully done on their part, it makes me cringe every time they come up. I should have known they were involved from the very beginning from the proselytizing in the streets of Delgar, and it was even mentioned that the usual gray-robed priest had recently been replaced by the black-robed herald, who is higher ranked in their organization. Then Calvonis was seen with the symbol of Razmir around his neck, but I was still so caught up in the whole summoner situation that I didn’t think twice about that either. Nice misdirection there. Subtle, yet effective…a classic setup and payoff.
Now, if the Razmirans are, in fact, in league with the Oakstewards, that would be really interesting. The two could normally be viewed as opposites in many ways. The most obvious is the Razmirans thriving in urban settings as opposed to the Oakstewards, and where the Oakstewards claim to not interfere in natural affairs, all the Razmirans do is meddle. Yet if both of their goals just happen to coincide, which it seems like they do, the ends will justify the means regardless of how much blood is shed.
I have to say that I thoroughly enjoy the fey as well. They're always a source of invariable excitement, I feel, because they are infinitely variable - they can be anywhere on any alignment, and their personalities can range from petty-but-playful to cold-but-kind and everything in between. I could read about fey adventures infinitely and never get tired of them. Even across the three other books you mentioned, the fey vary from fierce guardians, strange mystics, enchanting captors, to comic relief. An author can get a lot of mileage out of one creature type like that!
This was fun for me because I actually have a very hard time putting many aspects of Golarion together in my head. I never really understood how it was that the druids of Sevenarches, so close to Kyonin - and also with so many druids BEING ELVES - how they could have this whole plague thing and not already have it be widespread knowledge... but I really liked what Jones did with the Oakstewards - they were alternately very caring and utter d-bags that even in the end I was unsure whether or not I should feel bad for what they've lost.
This one had noticeably more romance than Stalking the Shadows, however; and, to date, some of the more romantic aspects compared to many save perhaps Death's Heretic? This time all three prominent characters get a little romance action going on - and all three of them have some noticeably different focuses. Drelm is in a stable relationship and always focused on Daylah the moment she enters the page; Lissette seems at first to be letting off steam, but then finds this connection with this other deeply wounded dude, and finally Elyana and Adale keep making eyes at each other, but their courtship is that of the "I nod, you nod, we acknowledge each other briefly on the battlefield and that is the extent of our courtship." And, interestingly, Lissete is the most sexually inclined, while Drelm doesn't seem to ever have that thought cross his mind while Elyana entertains it but does not act. What do you think of the romance aspects? The battles have been very exciting thus-far, but there's also these other elements going on as well!
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This was fun for me because I actually have a very hard time putting many aspects of Golarion together in my head. I never really understood how it was that the druids of Sevenarches, so close to Kyonin - and also with so many druids BEING ELVES - how they could have this whole plague thing and not already have it be widespread knowledge...but I really liked what Jones did with the Oakstewards - they were alternately very caring and utter d-bags that even in the end I was unsure whether or not I should feel bad for what they've lost.
I guess it all depends on when the plague started. One would expect Illidian and company to have been aware of it as Kyonin elves, but if they’re been in the field for an extensive time and the plague just became a threat, it’s likely they wouldn’t have got word of it. As for the rest of the elves in Kyonin, it makes sense that they haven’t been communicating about it to non-elven races since they’re so reclusive, and for the same reasons their rival Oakstewards have kept it under wraps to prevent outsiders from using that knowledge and turning it into a biological weapon. Despite not linking them, I do agree that the druids were written very well, and their whole “tough love” approach is just right when it comes to the faithful of the balance, even though there seems to be two separate factions within their ranks.
This one had noticeably more romance than Stalking the Shadows, however; and, to date, some of the more romantic aspects compared to many save perhaps Death's Heretic? This time all three prominent characters get a little romance action going on - and all three of them have some noticeably different focuses. Drelm is in a stable relationship and always focused on Daylah the moment she enters the page; Lissette seems at first to be letting off steam, but then finds this connection with this other deeply wounded dude, and finally Elyana and Adale keep making eyes at each other, but their courtship is that of the "I nod, you nod, we acknowledge each other briefly on the battlefield and that is the extent of our courtship." And, interestingly, Lissete is the most sexually inclined, while Drelm doesn't seem to ever have that thought cross his mind while Elyana entertains it but does not act. What do you think of the romance aspects? The battles have been very exciting thus-far, but there's also these other elements going on as well!
I can’t remember if it’s been brought up in the narrative, but Drelm must be less than half-orc; second or third generation perhaps. I’d like to learn more about his heritage, actually, as he is unlike any other half-orc I have read about, or played for that matter. It’s almost as if the only thing orcish about him is his martial ability, his mental sensibility or lack thereof, and of course the tint of green in his skin. The scene with him and Daylah in the beginning reminded me of a couple that had been married for quite some time as opposed to newly betrothed, in that they are already so accustomed and comfortable with each other. Drelm may be a mighty warrior, but I can totally still see Daylah waggling her finger at him for not taking his boots off before coming inside, and him pouting as he walks back out to do so.
Lisette and Illidian are an interesting pairing. I was a tad embarrassed when they were first together and he was spouting all of those terms of endearment he didn’t think she understood, but did. If she had responded briefly in elven it would've been fun to see him blush, or whatever elves do when things with humans get super awkward. I also find it interesting that that Lisette may the most romantically liberated out of all of them, she will also likely be the one who is most hurt by his betrayal, if it comes down to that. Maybe she’ll even have to be the one to put him down, as well as Drelm or instead of him.
Last, but certainly not least - your description of Elyana and Aladel is hilariously perfect! "I nod, you nod, we acknowledge each other briefly on the battlefield and that is the extent of our courtship." Not much more needs to be said than that (between us and them) on the matter, and I really like that they were written that way. Both are forlorn, but in different ways, which adds a well-deserved depth to the term.
I’m all for more romance in Pathfider Tales, not just for the sake of romance necessarily, but more for the conflict that inevitably arises from it. As I’ve said before, without conflict there is no drama, and I’ll take all I can get in this medium.
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As we're about to wrap up Stalking the Beast, let's look forward to our next thread. As I've mentioned, I met Gary Kloster and Josh Vogt at GenCon and told them to check in on the PTBC once in awhile for when it was their turn, so I'd like to honor that sooner rather than later. My vote is for Forge of Ashes first because I picked it up out there for reading material between seminars, so I've been itching to finish it since I got back. However, I'm equally interested about Firesoul so we'll go where the votes take us...
I am game for Forge of Ashes - I just finished it two weeks ago! I would be very excited to talk about FoA!
I would also like to talk about Winter Witch as well, as that was put on the docket ages ago and we never got to talking about it. I am cool with FoA, then Firesoul, if we could also (fittingly imo) get to Winter Witch in December?
I know there are a lot of silent observers as well, who should feel free to speak up if they want something else on the docket entirely - people also keep expressing interest in a Dave Gross book and we don't have to do them all as a series...
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I would also like to talk about Winter Witch as well, as that was put on the docket ages ago and we never got to talking about it. I am cool with FoA, then Firesoul, if we could also (fittingly imo) get to Winter Witch in December?
I'm at fault for not getting around to Winter Witch earlier this year, so I'm definitely up for it this time around. Can't imagine more appropriate reading material while being snowed in.
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So, the last third of Stalking the Beast...the action kept the pages flying by and left me wanting more. The return of Calvonis was a nice surprise, and its feels better that Elyana got to finish him once and for all [it’s nice when ranks in Use Magic Device pay off] and with no loose ends! Although I was darkly amused when Illidian basically murdered him earlier on, it seemed anticlimatic at the time and now it obvious why. I was also pleased that the notion that Illidian was involved in the other killings was dismissed as briefly as it was considered, but he definitely took on a darker turn in the end, especially with his wicked glee in killing the Razmiran acolyte at the end. But it all worked out well – Cyrelle taking Melias with her, Lisette and Illidian leaving together, and Drelm multiclassing into a cleric of Abadar and taking over as mayor of Delgar…all good things…
Elyana moving on yet again was implied earlier on, but it was still saddening to see her go. Truthfully I felt sorry more for Drelm, who put it right when he said that “she was tired of outliving her friends.” We got to know him as a robust character in Plague of Shadows and he grew on us even more in stalking the Beast, but it seems likely his tale is done if and when Howard Andrew Jones decides to continue Elyana’s story. Drelm will be missed, but I’m grateful for how everything turned out with him the end. In previous discussions a lack of heroism in the characters was a concern, mostly due to the dark and gritty nature of their environment and their experiences, and that they had to be hardened to survive. But in the end, I think I can let all of that go because Drelm certainly proved to be enough of a hero to earn favor in the eyes of his deity, and Elyana was finally able to put all of her enemies down, not only in Calvonis, but also in the slaying of Kilvor and the witch as well. I would be remiss if I didn’t say I felt proud of her, and that I hope to see her again.
[Glory to Razmir! Haha.]
I forgot to include Pirate's Promise/Honor in the romance part! Okay, so on a scale of "0 being no romance at all like Nightbladde" to "10/10 romance is a central plot point like Pirate's Honor", I felt this had a solid balance, which in reflection surprises me because the entire Plague of Shadows had relatively little. I mean there were unrequited feelings all around, but it was mostly adventure. This was "mostly adventure", but the feelings were actually acted on? I dunno I just find it kind of interesting that Jones had that little switch-up going on. The other reason I wanted to mention it was that there are several things where all this intersects with social justice and Paizo's progressiveness (which I was wondering if you'd noticed DB or what your/other readers' thoughts were on it). Namely, Lissette is the most sexually active, sexually forward character in the book, with the possibility of Cyrelle being next. Contrasting her is Drelm, who I can't even recall him kissing Daylah, much less all the things Lissette expected of him. For me there's this element of "wow, refreshing", especially as I work my way through older sci-fi/fantasy novels where the gals are always virginal innocents with little/no sexual desire, and the men have all the autonomy.
One thing that I have mentioned before that I really enjoy doing is switching genders of characters and considering what effect that has on the story (not changing anything, just observing how I'd react to them afterwards). In some cases, it can be useful for highlighting gender disparity, in others it just leads to funny consequences. Doing it for Lissette in this book made me wonder whether or not I'd enjoy her as much if she had been written as a dude - namely, the way her story opens makes her seem like "yet another" anti-hero male roguish character. Having her character be female - whether it was a conscious decision or not - imo just adds a very large amount of "interest" to the story that I feel wouldn't be there otherwise. I'm not quite sure how to explain it! At the same time, there was one moment where I just noticed my own reaction and had to laugh a little; namely, take the scene where she wakes Illidan up from his enchanted sleep by... I mean, you know, engaging him in sexual intercourse while he's asleep.
Now, like, I have to admit, reversing the genders in this instance makes it kind of creepy were she to be a man who just... you know, starts having sex with his unconscious partner. And my reaction to the reverse is just nooooot that at all. In fact, I was alternately "wow that is very progressive" and "I genuinely enjoy this". Personally, I am very okay with this, but I also know that it is something that some people can get very up in arms about (incidentally, this is something stressed in campus sexual assault training that's required now, the whole "your partner has to be awake and consenting piece). There's a very big part of me that says "this is different" because the two of them are in a relationship that undoubtedly has given Lissette tacit permission to, well, do what she wants with him, and... I mean, I don't think I'd be that okay with reading the reverse, unless the same thing was made EXPLICIT in big red letters by (female)Illidan. Which might actually be a hugely memorable, also progressive thing to read (depending on the characters)!
I dunno, just a thing I reacted to while reflecting on the book.
So, the last third of Stalking the Beast...the action kept the pages flying by and left me wanting more. The return of Calvonis was a nice surprise, and its feels better that Elyana got to finish him once and for all [it’s nice when ranks in Use Magic Device pay off] and with no loose ends! Although I was darkly amused when Illidian basically murdered him earlier on, it seemed anticlimatic at the time and now it obvious why. I was also pleased that the notion that Illidian was involved in the other killings was dismissed as briefly as it was considered, but he definitely took on a darker turn in the end, especially with his wicked glee in killing the Razmiran acolyte at the end. But it all worked out well – Cyrelle taking Melias with her, Lisette and Illidian leaving together, and Drelm multiclassing into a cleric of Abadar and taking over as mayor of Delgar…all good things…
I loved that Illidan just walked up and finished the job for Elyana. She is so constantly lulled into the idea of "oh I should spare them" - thankfully Illidan ended things so that, at the very least, he came back without getting to rest for the entire night and letting his eidolon get back to full health.
Also, I thought that it was supposed to be Drelm retraining as a paladin? Isn't that why he only has like, two lay on hands? If he were a cleric he could have channeled energy a billion more times than he did.
Elyana moving on yet again was implied earlier on, but it was still saddening to see her go. Truthfully I felt sorry more for Drelm, who put it right when he said that “she was tired of outliving her friends.” We got to know him as a robust character in Plague of Shadows and he grew on us even more in stalking the Beast, but it seems likely his tale is done if and when Howard Andrew Jones decides to continue Elyana’s story. Drelm will be missed, but I’m grateful for how everything turned out with him the end. In previous discussions a lack of heroism in the characters was a concern, mostly due to the dark and gritty nature of their environment and their experiences, and that they had to be hardened to survive. But in the end, I think I can let all of that go because Drelm certainly proved to be enough of a hero to earn favor in the eyes of his deity, and Elyana was finally able to put all of her enemies down, not only in Calvonis, but also in the slaying of Kilvor and the witch as well. I would be remiss if I didn’t say I felt proud of her, and that I hope to see her again.
You know, it'd be really interesting to see Elyana again, but like, "it's been two decades" or something and she's heard about Drelm's kids, or Renar's family or something (maybe Renar even ends up with another/the same brightness seeker and has some half-elves Elyana encoutners decades later? eh eh?). I have really enjoyed the ability for Elyana's story to take place across multiple decades - it's a lot like Salim in the Death's Heretic series. In fact, thus far, are those the two longest-lived characters we've read about?
I totally agree with you here though, DB, about this story being gritty but still producing some truly "heroic" feels. I personally really dislike when side characters are offed one right after another - for me, it just minimizes death and makes me stop caring about the story entirely; side characters just become "oh hello, I am cheap drama waiting to happen" and - since I know the main character will live - I find it very hard to keep believing that soooo many people died while the main character is the sole escapee every time. Moreover, it's hard to feel that it's not arbitrary; so often it feels like "welp, that happened because the author decided it did" rather than feeling like the death was part of the organic flow of the story.
So Jones had a pretty uphill battle with my interest in this book, but man did he pull it off. The deaths that happened were spaced out enough, significant enough, and lingered over enough that they felt serious and real. Lissette losing her cohort, Illidan losing his cousin, the lord losing his son and Melias losing her brother/family - everything remained a constant shadow. And the most significant deaths, that were to be emotional for the reader (instead of another character), like Drutha's, even get mentioned through the very last pages! I feel like many authors forget to add that weight, and actually I think it's a marked improvement from Plague of Shadows and Stalking the beast; the care shown for Drutha's dog (as a way of honoring her memory) is way more engaging than whatever happened with Kellias.
At the end, they truly did feel like "heroes out of legend", the kind that single-handedly saved the day for the entire region and would understandably be talked about for decades to come. Especially the whole "blood of heroes" thing - when that line was dropped, it... I mean, I really admire the gentle nudge by Jones to encourage the reader to think about it in those terms. It's not drawn out any longer than necessary, it's not lingered on or agonized over or even mentioned again! And yet it carries a lot of weight and ties the entire story together, as well as actually naming what just happened for the reader without feeling like getting a brick to the head.
One final thing that did bug me (and this is relatively small) is the lack of summoner's symbol on Calvonis's forehead. I mean, it is something that is easily hidden (and can be hidden by mundane means) - but it's a really fun RP point that I feel adds quite a bit to the class. Still, simply for the fact that he adds so many not-written-about classes makes me pretty forgiving (on top of my lack of caring about a rigid interpretation of the rules). It just would have been neat to have Calvonis reveal his summoner's sigil as a sure confirmation!
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I forgot to include Pirate's Promise/Honor in the romance part! Okay, so on a scale of "0 being no romance at all like Nightblade" to "10/10 romance is a central plot point like Pirate's Honor", I felt this had a solid balance, which in reflection surprises me because the entire Plague of Shadows had relatively little. I mean there were unrequited feelings all around, but it was mostly adventure. This was "mostly adventure", but the feelings were actually acted on? I dunno I just find it kind of interesting that Jones had that little switch-up going on. The other reason I wanted to mention it was that there are several things where all this intersects with social justice and Paizo's progressiveness (which I was wondering if you'd noticed DB or what your/other readers' thoughts were on it). Namely, Lisette is the most sexually active, sexually forward character in the book, with the possibility of Cyrelle being next. Contrasting her is Drelm, who I can't even recall him kissing Daylah, much less all the things Lisette expected of him. For me there's this element of "wow, refreshing", especially as I work my way through older sci-fi/fantasy novels where the gals are always virginal innocents with little/no sexual desire, and the men have all the autonomy.
Yeah, I picked up on it too. I had commented about how if Illidian had actually been in on it with Calvonis in some way, that Lisette would’ve been hurt by it the most, despite how much more romantically progressive as she is (actively and emotionally) than Drelm or Elyana.
At the same time, there was one moment where I just noticed my own reaction and had to laugh a little; namely, take the scene where she wakes Illidan up from his enchanted sleep by... I mean, you know, engaging him in sexual intercourse while he's asleep. Now, like, I have to admit, reversing the genders in this instance makes it kind of creepy were she to be a man who just... you know, starts having sex with his unconscious partner. And my reaction to the reverse is just nooooot that at all. In fact, I was alternately "wow that is very progressive" and "I genuinely enjoy this". Personally, I am very okay with this, but I also know that it is something that some people can get very up in arms about (incidentally, this is something stressed in campus sexual assault training that's required now, the whole "your partner has to be awake and consenting piece). There's a very big part of me that says "this is different" because the two of them are in a relationship that undoubtedly has given Lisette tacit permission to, well, do what she wants with him, and... I mean, I don't think I'd be that okay with reading the reverse, unless the same thing was made EXPLICIT in big red letters by (female)Illidan. Which might actually be a hugely memorable, also progressive thing to read (depending on the characters)! =
Yes, that scene would’ve been extremely controversial if the genders were switched - whereas a lot of men would appreciate being woken up in that fashion, it almost the entire opposite for women, which is why it’s a big deal that Paizo has chosen to go in that direction about sexuality, and in so many other aspects. Not only does it reveal things about the characters involved, it makes you think in a way that you don’t normally expect to in fantasy novels, and I definitely think it’s important to consider those things and, more importantly, to be liberal about them. [When I run a game my players expect my style to be Rated-R, and not just for the sake of having that rating, but because I think that's a more accurate way to portray the world and holding back with anything - especially the touchy subjects - just ins't being honest.]
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I thought that it was supposed to be Drelm retraining as a paladin? Isn't that why he only has like, two lay on hands? If he were a cleric he could have channeled energy a billion more times than he did.
I, too, thought Drelm became a paladin at first, but then Elyana referred to him as a priest. Also, the title of the chapter is "The Temple and the Cleric" and since Razmiran Priests are actually sorcerers, I concluded Drelm had become a cleric instead. Yes, as a cleric Drelm may have had more healing, but he may have spent all of his channel energy uses on Lisette, and having no spells since he didn't have the chance to spend the necessary time to prepare them. If he was, indeed, a paladin he wouldn't have lay on hands until 2nd level, and also didn't have the chance to spend the necessary time retraining to get to that level. But all those points are moot since Jones admitted he is loose with the rules, so it is what it is and that's fine with me, it's a great honor to for Drelm either way.
You know, it'd be really interesting to see Elyana again, but like, "it's been two decades" or something and she's heard about Drelm's kids, or Renar's family or something (maybe Renar even ends up with another/the same brightness seeker and has some half-elves Elyana encounters decades later? eh eh?). I have really enjoyed the ability for Elyana's story to take place across multiple decades - it's a lot like Salim in the Death's Heretic series. In fact, thus far, are those the two longest-lived characters we've read about?
Yes, they are the two longest lived characters to date in the PTBC, and I'm with you about how would be nice to revisit her story after another significant stretch of time. Although my guess would be Renar would have learned from the failed relationship between Elyana and his father and not pursued another elven companion, as to not be put in the same painful position that they had to face. I bet Drelm and Daylah would have some nice, plump second (or third) generation babies with a hint of lime!
I totally agree with you here though, DB, about this story being gritty but still producing some truly "heroic" feels. I personally really dislike when side characters are offed one right after another - for me, it just minimizes death and makes me stop caring about the story entirely; side characters just become "oh hello, I am cheap drama waiting to happen" and - since I know the main character will live - I find it very hard to keep believing that soooo many people died while the main character is the sole escapee every time. Moreover, it's hard to feel that it's not arbitrary; so often it feels like "welp, that happened because the author decided it did" rather than feeling like the death was part of the organic flow of the story.
Yeah, I sometimes feel the same thing, as that can seem formulaic, but that's not necessarily a bad thing all the time. The opposite would be rough, like if the main character that most of the story was spent developing died a meaningless death while the side characters continued on. But we also don't want the "red shirt" cliche to become too run-of-the-mill either. [Just like in the game, an ideal PC death should be a transcendent experience, not a transparent one.] There can be a really fine line when it comes to supporting characters, as in how much to develop them and in what ways before they're destined to meet their end. Props to the writers who can walk that line and make a character death go with the flow of the story regardless of it being contrived, which I think Jones did in both books.
So Jones had a pretty uphill battle with my interest in this book, but man did he pull it off. The deaths that happened were spaced out enough, significant enough, and lingered over enough that they felt serious and real. Lisette losing her cohort, Illidan losing his cousin, the lord losing his son and Melias losing her brother/family - everything remained a constant shadow. And the most significant deaths, that were to be emotional for the reader (instead of another character), like Drutha's, even get mentioned through the very last pages! I feel like many authors forget to add that weight, and actually I think it's a marked improvement from Plague of Shadows and Stalking the beast; the care shown for Drutha's dog (as a way of honoring her memory) is way more engaging than whatever happened with Kellias. At the end, they truly did feel like "heroes out of legend", the kind that single-handedly saved the day for the entire region and would understandably be talked about for decades to come. Especially the whole "blood of heroes" thing - when that line was dropped, it... I mean, I really admire the gentle nudge by Jones to encourage the reader to think about it in those terms. It's not drawn out any longer than necessary, it's not lingered on or agonized over or even mentioned again! And yet it carries a lot of weight and ties the entire story together, as well as actually naming what just happened for the reader without feeling like getting a brick to the head.
Absolutely. Stalking the Beast was a bloodbath, plain and simple. But it surely wasn't killing for the sake of killing, as even the antagonists had a grim plot that those deaths served a purpose for. I also liked how the group wasn't seemingly engineered to be heroes of legend. They were the locals. It wasn't like Cleric+Fighter+Rogue+Wizard and everyone else is expendable. If you boil it down, they were mostly a bunch of rangers of varied levels with a few other interesting classes (alchemist, gunslinger, hunter) sparsely thrown in with a handful of NPC warriors. That may not be an ideal group, but I love it that way. [I expect my players to embed their characters in the story: only play races, classes, and archetypes commonly found in the regions we're playing in, then choosing their patron deities and class features in the same pursuit. I see nothing wrong with giving the PCs a nudge in the right direction to make their story a more rich experience for everyone, rather than give them carte blanche to create whatever they want regardless of the story, then have to deal with four separate fish-out-of-water character arcs and have to "square the circle" just to fit them into the campaign.] In any given story, especially a crisis situation like in Stalking the Beast, that's how it should be - everything goes to hell and anyone in proximity has no choice but to gather whatever people and resources available to them right at that moment in order to overcome the opposition. [Not everyone can post a HELP WANTED sign and have an aasimar rogue and a tiefling paladin show up at the door within the hour, both ready and willing to work with one another for some strange reason that never gets resolved.]
One final thing that did bug me (and this is relatively small) is the lack of summoner's symbol on Calvonis's forehead. I mean, it is something that is easily hidden (and can be hidden by mundane means) - but it's a really fun RP point that I feel adds quite a bit to the class. Still, simply for the fact that he adds so many not-written-about classes makes me pretty forgiving (on top of my lack of caring about a rigid interpretation of the rules). It just would have been neat to have Calvonis reveal his summoner's sigil as a sure confirmation!
I understand how you feel. A summoner also isn't supposed to be able to use Summon Monster spells simultaneously with an eidolon, but that's the author's prerogative. But, yes, it would've been neat to see the sigil, perhaps shaped like a Razmiri mask, or something along those lines. It also could've been neat for the sigil to have been revealed on the eidolon when it became visible, maybe just as it was defeated and sent back to it's plane, for a cinematic touch. Summoners deserve it, they're awesome...and now I want to play one more than ever, so I need to stop putting it off!
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Feel free to keep this conversation going, but we also need to look ahead!
So let's give it another day for anyone else to cast a vote, but unless other participants have any other suggestions for what we should do next, it looks like we'll be going with Josh Vogt, starting with The Price Paid web fiction for this weekend, then Forge of Ashes for the following three weeks.
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Forge of Ashes it is!
The new thread will be up this Saturday, starting with The Price Paid web fiction. If there are any final comments for Howard Andrew Jones now would be the time, although we will definitely be revisiting his work (hopefully sooner rather than later) as Beyond the Pool of Stars is now available...
I hope you guys do get around to discussing Beyond the Pool of Stars at some point, as I'd be really interested in seeing a comparison between Elyana and Mirian Raas. They're very distinctive protagonists in some ways, similar in others.
omg liane we JUST set up our next row of books one of which was your previous suggestion!!!! JOIN OUR CONVERSATIONS IF YOU WANT A VOTE!
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We will most definitely get to Beyond the Pool of Stars in the near future, and we’re hoping to see something new from you too, Liane!
But now, onto the first of a select few writers whose talents have turned their success in Pathfinder web fiction into Pathfinder Tales – Mr. Josh Vogt!