Babylon 5


Television

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LazarX wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Hama wrote:
Haladir wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Of course, in Star Trek every humanoid sentient species in the galaxy is a descendant of the precursors, who seeded their DNA into the genes of several species throughout the galaxy in order to try to give life to thing long after they were gone.
Which was terrible writing, and never mentioned outside of that one episode...
It does make sense, however.
It also explains how things like human/vulcan, human/klingon, and bajor/cardassian offspring can happen when they evolved on completly separate planets.
Yes so DNA was rewritten for the sole purpose to send a holographic message to the future. That episode ranks with the worst of TOS Season 3.

Even Spocks Brain?


Christopher Dudley wrote:

I love the series, and still consider it the best TV SF I've seen. I think it's worth viewing to see how to construct an epic storyline that spans years with the goal visible from day 1. However, there are enough failings about the show that I have decided that it is much better to have watched Babylon 5 than to watch Babylon 5.

Because of the budgetary constraints they constantly ran into, it was the show that made me realize that when an actor appearing on screen has a line, you have to pay them more. I didn't realize it until it became a recurring clunkiness that there were so many awkwardly silent bit parts on the show. I think they could have done better on that.

Also,
** spoiler omitted **

Maybe that's just me.

One of the things I've read about the series, is that due to budget constraints they did not have much ability to do reshoots. Towards the end of the series, the actors would come in in the morning, get in costume, do a readthrough of the script on the sets, break for lunch, film the scenes, get out of costume and be finished by 5pm most days.


Black Dougal wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Hama wrote:
Haladir wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Of course, in Star Trek every humanoid sentient species in the galaxy is a descendant of the precursors, who seeded their DNA into the genes of several species throughout the galaxy in order to try to give life to thing long after they were gone.
Which was terrible writing, and never mentioned outside of that one episode...
It does make sense, however.
It also explains how things like human/vulcan, human/klingon, and bajor/cardassian offspring can happen when they evolved on completly separate planets.
Yes so DNA was rewritten for the sole purpose to send a holographic message to the future. That episode ranks with the worst of TOS Season 3.
Even Spocks Brain?

Which in turn, fails to reach the badness of Star Trek: TNG: Genesis . . . .


I am re-re-re-re-rewatching B5. I am in the middle of season 2 on "All alone in the night."

Sovereign Court

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Middle of season 2 now. I miss Sinclair.


Yeah. Though I have to say Sheridan grows on you.

Scarab Sages

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Like a fungus. But a good fungus. A FUNgus.

Scarab Sages

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Like when he says...

Spoiler:
"Up yours." to Kosh

Sovereign Court

Sissyl wrote:
Yeah. Though I have to say Sheridan grows on you.

Oh I love Bruce Boxleitner.

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Hama wrote:
Sissyl wrote:
Yeah. Though I have to say Sheridan grows on you.
Oh I love Bruce Boxleitner.

I was actually happy to be rid of Sinclair. His cowboy swagger and slick baritone made it seem to me like he was pulled from the lead role in some 50s sci fi movie. He grew on me more in the (first) re-watch, but I still felt like he was too much ... I don't know, really. Radio-voice.


Christopher Dudley wrote:
Hama wrote:
Sissyl wrote:
Yeah. Though I have to say Sheridan grows on you.
Oh I love Bruce Boxleitner.
I was actually happy to be rid of Sinclair. His cowboy swagger and slick baritone made it seem to me like he was pulled from the lead role in some 50s sci fi movie. He grew on me more in the (first) re-watch, but I still felt like he was too much ... I don't know, really. Radio-voice.

He was stiff as a board and preachy. Other characters are preachy in the series, but at least they can deliver the lines without sound like preachers.

Sovereign Court

Christopher Dudley wrote:
Hama wrote:
Sissyl wrote:
Yeah. Though I have to say Sheridan grows on you.
Oh I love Bruce Boxleitner.
I was actually happy to be rid of Sinclair. His cowboy swagger and slick baritone made it seem to me like he was pulled from the lead role in some 50s sci fi movie. He grew on me more in the (first) re-watch, but I still felt like he was too much ... I don't know, really. Radio-voice.

I actually loved that about him. Sounds like a 40s hard-boiled detective.


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Caineach wrote:
Christopher Dudley wrote:
Hama wrote:
Sissyl wrote:
Yeah. Though I have to say Sheridan grows on you.
Oh I love Bruce Boxleitner.
I was actually happy to be rid of Sinclair. His cowboy swagger and slick baritone made it seem to me like he was pulled from the lead role in some 50s sci fi movie. He grew on me more in the (first) re-watch, but I still felt like he was too much ... I don't know, really. Radio-voice.
He was stiff as a board and preachy. Other characters are preachy in the series, but at least they can deliver the lines without sound like preachers.

The stiff as a board part might be attributed to the off-screen stuff that was happening with him (also why he left after the first season).

Sovereign Court

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Heh, I didn't know humans had sex like that. I'm doing it all wrong.


Hama wrote:
Heh, I didn't know humans had sex like that.

Neither did they.


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Hama wrote:
Heh, I didn't know humans had sex like that. I'm doing it all wrong.

You should try it sometime! Although regardless, the ending should involve pizza.

Sovereign Court

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Watching the "news" episode. I loved that scene where that guy in CIC talks about how he loves his job how it's not stressfull while casting fearful gazes at Ivanova who's looking at him intently :D


Season 2 was where the show really started to get going for me, and Season 3 produced some of the finest TV I've ever seen (though the child in me loves season 4 more).


Season two here. I started up with 2:4, I think, and it was an instant hook. I then saw up to the end of season 4, and went back to season 1, which made me realize there was quite a serious jump in quality from season 1 to 2.


I saw the Season 1 to Season 2 improvement as more of an evolutionary change that was already well under way in the last few episodes of Season 2.


Quote:
Love my DVD set, but I'd also love to see them finally put the series on Bluray.

There's no reason to do it without being able to remaster it. There's two key problems with this:

1) You need the original film the scenes were actually shot on in order to a remaster: the original fully-edited tapes are SD only, so they're useless. The 32mm film masters are what is required and they need to have been stored and preserved perfectly for 22 years (and counting). STAR TREK was fine because Paramount/CBS has a custom-built archive facility located hundreds of feet below a salt mine in Pennsylvania. Fox's storage facilities are also pretty hardcore, hence they've been able to do X-FILES. Warner Brothers apparently has a warehouse in Los Angeles. At one point the warehouse was flooded and then invaded by rats. According to some reports, most of the series is fine but the pilot master reel was kind of eaten. So the pilot may be unsalvageable.

2) BABYLON 5's CGI was handled by a company working on an absolute shoestring. They had a budget-per-season rather than per-shot, which meant that B5 could have insane numbers of CG shots per episode (over 100 for "Fall of Night", "Severed Dreams", "Endgame" and a few others). Any company redoing the CG for B5 now would charge a hell of a lot more than Foundation Imaging and Netter Digital did back in the day. This would raise the cost of remastering B5 quite sharply. There's also a hell of a lot of re-compositing to do (any scene in C&C, the Garden etc).

The total cost of remastering STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION was $20 million, for the most successful and highly-watched space opera TV show of all time. And it's apparently struggled to make its money back. BABYLON 5 is extremely obscure in comparison. Literally, Warner Brothers have said they would rather reboot the show from scratch as it would be more cost-effective.

Quote:
A show where the arc is defined in the beginning.

Kind of. JMS massively oversold this at the time. The B5 we ended up with is very different - but to fair vastly better - than what he had planned even as late as 1994.

Quote:
The technomage arc of books are the only ones considered canon by JMS himself.

"The Shadow Within", "To Dream in the City of Sorrows", THE PASSING OF THE TECHNO-MAGES TRILOGY, THE PSI CORPS TRILOGY and THE LEGIONS OF FIRE TRILOGY are all considered canon by JMS, as are the comics he wrote about Sinclair's dismissal from B5 and the stuff set on Mars (which was directly referenced in "Messages from Earth"). Most of the rest are considered semi-canon at best.

Quote:
Londo's "gift" to the Sheridans looked like it was a setup for the finale when I first saw it -- but in fact it was a setup for a series of events that took place in the intervening years and was never shown on TV.

It was actually setup for the LEGIONS OF FIRE books which were already in the planning stages.

Quote:
I could have sworn Centauri fighters ignored momentum like that too.

The Sentris could pull higher-G turns than the Starfuries because the Centauri were willing to risking blacking out, as their fighters' AI systems were superior to the human stuff and could take over for a few seconds. They were a lot more fragile though. The Starfury and the Narn fighters (which took some hints from the Starfury design) was quite rugged in comparison.

You may be thinking of the Vorlon fighters, which treated gravity and momentum as optional extras.

Quote:
I was always under the impression that the Vorlons and Shadows were grouped as part of the First Ones, just sort of the last of the first ones to come along.

Spoiler:
Yes, the Shadows and Vorlons were the youngest of the First Ones, although still millennia beyond the Minbari.
Quote:
That wasn't what happened with either. It's never been disclosed or even discussed why Andrea Thompson left as far as I'm aware.

Andrea Thompson wanted to apply for a role as a series regular on the first season of JAG, on which she'd be in every episode as a core regular and paid more. On BABYLON 5 she wasn't paid much and her contract required her to be available for all 22 episodes even when she was only actually in 6 or 7 of the season. She asked to either be downgraded from recurring character to a recurring guest star and to work her new role around BABYLON 5, or for her appearances or pay on B5 to be raised to compensate her for missing out on a role elsewhere. When they were unable to accommodate her, she left.

For her, it was a straightforward business decision driven by her career needs. JMS took it personally (JMS tended to take things personally and act first and think about them later) and refused to let her come back even for a one-off episode in Season 3 wrapping up her story, even when she offered.

As it turned out, she only did one season as JAG and left to become a newsreader, as she didn't like the Hollywood scene too much. Her and Jerry Doyle breaking up also apparently took a toll.

That's what she directly said at a convention, anyway. Also, Talia was definitely supposed to stick around for the duration. JMS did want to bring back Lyta as well (JMS and Patricia Tallman were like best buds at the time and have collaborated on various projects since), but it would have likely been for a couple of guest spots here and there. Lyta basically took over Talia's storyline just as Talia took over Lyta's from the pilot.

Quote:
As I understood it, Claudia Christian was slated for season 5, which is clear from the Marcus subplot. I thought she had an offer of a part in something else?

There was a mix-up. Christian was offered a lot of money to do a film which would have required 3 or 4 weeks of filming for her. So she asked for 3-4 weeks off. JMS verbally gave her a promise that he would write her out for 3-4 weeks and then she could come back. The studio making the film required that guarantee in writing to take her on and contacted Warner Brothers and John Copeland, the other main producer and showrunner. Unaware of JMS's verbal guarantee, they refused to give that permission in writing. All of this was going on whilst JMS and Christian were in Blackpool, England at a B5 convention making communications (in those days) difficult. In the end, Christian decided to make the film after feeling that JMS had reneged on his promise.

Later on, when he got to the bottom of what had happened, JMS apologised to Christian and apparently got annoyed because he could have sorted it out (Lochley was, after all, only in about half of Season 5's episodes so they gap ended up being there anyway).


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Seems Stephen Furst (Vir) has gone beyond the rim.

of a screenshot of a Facebook page wrote:

Actor and comedian Stephen Furst died on June 16, 2017 due to complications from diabetes.

Steve has a long list of earthly accomplishments. He was known to the world as an brilliant and prolific actor and filmmaker, but to his family and dear friends he was also a beloved husband, father, and kind friend whose memory will always be a blessing.

To truly honor him, do not cry for the loss of Stephen Furst. But rather, enjoy memories of all the times he made you snicker, laugh, or even snort to your own embarrassment. He intensely believed that laughter is the best therapy, and he would want us to practice that now.

If you knew him personally, remember his gift for lighting up a room. And no matter who you are, when you think of Steve, instead of being sad, celebrate his life by watching one of his movies or use one of his bits to make someone else laugh - really, really hard.

Sincerely

His sons Nathan and Griffith Furst


Damn.


DAMN!!!


Another one? Yeesh. I blame the Shadows. They obviously didn't retreat beyond the Rim like they were supposed to.

Dark Archive

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No! Our moon-faced assassin of joy? That's sad. He had some classic moments in the show.


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I'll always remember him best for Animal House... but Vir was a damned fine performance.


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Set wrote:

No! Our moon-faced assassin of joy? That's sad. He had some classic moments in the show.

Morden: What do you want?

Vir Cotto: I'd like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I would look up at your lifeless eyes and wave like this.
[gives a mockingly cheerful finger waggle]
Vir Cotto: Can you and your associates arrange this for me, Mr. Morden?

Liberty's Edge

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Lathiira wrote:
Set wrote:

No! Our moon-faced assassin of joy? That's sad. He had some classic moments in the show.

Morden: What do you want?

Vir Cotto: I'd like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I would look up at your lifeless eyes and wave like this.
[gives a mockingly cheerful finger waggle]
Vir Cotto: Can you and your associates arrange this for me, Mr. Morden?

Spoiler:
I love the fact that when He did see Morden's head on the pike, He did wave as before

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I'm currently undertaking a BABYLON 5 Rewatch Project, which has proven unexpectedly popular (it's attracted much more attention than my LOST rewatch project from last year).

Currently halfway through Season 1, which is a bit rough in how it's shot and handled but quite interesting in how well it's setting up characters and bits of backstory for the road ahead.


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Werthead wrote:
"The Shadow Within", "To Dream in the City of Sorrows", THE PASSING OF THE TECHNO-MAGES TRILOGY, THE PSI CORPS TRILOGY and THE LEGIONS OF FIRE TRILOGY are all considered canon by JMS, as are the comics he wrote about Sinclair's dismissal from B5 and the stuff set on Mars (which was directly referenced in "Messages from Earth"). Most of the rest are considered semi-canon at best.

Wait, so Vir marrying Lord Refas daughter (who prior to that was taken in by emperor Londo as his de-facto adoptive daughter) is canon? This is brilliant! :)

Kajehase wrote:

Seems Stephen Furst (Vir) has gone beyond the rim.

of a screenshot of a Facebook page wrote:

Actor and comedian Stephen Furst died on June 16, 2017 due to complications from diabetes.

Steve has a long list of earthly accomplishments. He was known to the world as an brilliant and prolific actor and filmmaker, but to his family and dear friends he was also a beloved husband, father, and kind friend whose memory will always be a blessing.

To truly honor him, do not cry for the loss of Stephen Furst. But rather, enjoy memories of all the times he made you snicker, laugh, or even snort to your own embarrassment. He intensely believed that laughter is the best therapy, and he would want us to practice that now.

If you knew him personally, remember his gift for lighting up a room. And no matter who you are, when you think of Steve, instead of being sad, celebrate his life by watching one of his movies or use one of his bits to make someone else laugh - really, really hard.

Sincerely

His sons Nathan and Griffith Furst

Hrrrrrkkk. :( :( :( I post replies in sequence and just when I had found out something great for his character, I read his death notice. Rest in piece, Stephen. Vir was an amazing character.

Scarab Sages

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I never bought any of the books.
Could you please say in "Spoiler" why Sinclair was dismissed as commander.
The show stated it was because he was appointed ambassador to Minbar.


Charles Scholz wrote:

I never bought any of the books.

Could you please say in "Spoiler" why Sinclair was dismissed as commander.
The show stated it was because he was appointed ambassador to Minbar.

Kind of.

Spoiler:
The Minbari told the EA President the real reason they surrendered at the Battle of the Line. The one in In the Beginning didn't really care, she was just glad Earth survived. Santiago believed that the Minbari believed it, and worked hard to get them on board with the Babylon Project. Clarke didn't believe it at all, and was concerned over the Minbari influence on B5 itself, so when the Minbari asked Sinclair to go to Minbar he was fine with it.

The real reason, of course, is that the Grey Council and Delenn know that Sinclair is Valen (from the scan during the Battle of the Line) or a direct descendant of him, and want him on board to lead the Rangers.


Non-show reason - Michael O'Hare was ill and couldn't continue.


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Babylon 5 his Amazon Prime in the USA today.

Although oddly they don't start with the pilot, you have to go to the very bottom of Season 1's listing and find it under "bonus material".

The other TV movies and CRUSADE aren't on there yet, they should follow in a month or so.


Gary Cole!

Dark Archive

Werthead wrote:

Babylon 5 his Amazon Prime in the USA today.

Although oddly they don't start with the pilot, you have to go to the very bottom of Season 1's listing and find it under "bonus material".

The other TV movies and CRUSADE aren't on there yet, they should follow in a month or so.

Amazon sometimes makes it hard to know what the correct order to watch something is. Their (new) Doctor Who is REALLY messed up...some of the seasons are split into two parts, and the Christmas specials are bundled into several different sections by themselves.

I have all the DVDs (with the exceptions of Crusade). I kind of wish they would do another DVD release, but put all the episodes in the intended order. The airing order isn't too bad, but it does get a bit noticeable when Delenn starts teleporting back and forth between Mimbar and the stations for a few episodes.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

I'm pretty sure the grouping of episode for shows like Doctor Who is due to the way they're on DVD seasons, and Amazon just presents them in the same way. It is weird about The Gathering being at the bottom of S1 for B5 though.


Shadow Kosh wrote:
I have all the DVDs (with the exceptions of Crusade). I kind of wish they would do another DVD release, but put all the episodes in the intended order. The airing order isn't too bad, but it does get a bit noticeable when Delenn starts teleporting back and forth between Mimbar and the stations for a few episodes.

On the existing DVD releases, the episodes are already in the correct order with a couple of minor issues (A Race Through Dark Places comes before Soul Mates, Knives should come before In the Shadow of Z'ha'Dum). The Season 1 re-ordering during transmission causes a couple of very minor issues - I know some people suggest moving Legacies to after Babylon Squared because of the Triluminary plot point - but they're so small I don't see much point to it.

Dark Archive

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If there is a DVD release that has all the episodes in the correct order, I am unaware of it. My personal DVDs most certainly are NOT in the order prescribed by The Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5: Master Episode List, but is in the order in which the episodes originally aired. Again, it's nothing major, but having watched both orderings, the one I linked is better, and JMS has endorsed it.


Shadow Kosh wrote:
If there is a DVD release that has all the episodes in the correct order, I am unaware of it. My personal DVDs most certainly are NOT in the order prescribed by The Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5: Master Episode List, but is in the order in which the episodes originally aired. Again, it's nothing major, but having watched both orderings, the one I linked is better, and JMS has endorsed it.

There are a few viewing orders given for watching the show, of varying degrees of success. The Lurker's Guide one is a solid rewatch list, but I wouldn't watch the show for the first time in that order (starting with In the Beginning is a big no-no for first timers).

The reordering of Season 1 is really only desirable for one vanishingly tiny plot point (Delenn having the Triluminary in Legacies when she doesn't receive it from Jenimer until Babylon Squared), but otherwise it's moving things around for no real benefit (having TKO late in the season also throws a wrench in the strong run of episodes in late Season 1; if you're going to do that, you might as well just skip it altogether).

Day of the Dead moving back to its intended position is a good idea, as TNT moved it for no real reason anyway and created confusion where it was unnecessary (as Londo is on Centauri Prime one second, B5 the next and Centauri Prime the next again).


I remember watching it on its original run and being confused as hell by the Londo arc..I thought I had missed episodes and wondered how that happened.

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I actually got cable just to be able to watch this show, since it was only available on TNT, back in the day.

To this day, my friends and I still quote stuff like 'Moon-faced assassin of joy!' or 'Zathrak has hard life. Zathrak will probably have hard death. At least there is symmetry.'

Londo was the most quotable, but the show had a ton of great characters, like Delenn and G'Kar. And gosh, what a shock, I liked the aliens more than the humans.

Pity it only had those four seasons. {Don't try to convince me that there was a fifth season. Like any Highlander movies after the first one, or Aliens movies after the second one, I pretend they don't exist.) :)


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Set wrote:
Pity it only had those four seasons. {Don't try to convince me that there was a fifth season. Like any Highlander movies after the first one, or Aliens movies after the second one, I pretend they don't exist.) :)

Yep, "Sleeping in Light" was a great way to end the fourth season, that's for sure!


Zathras life so hard, people never even spell his name right.

Zathras is used to this. Probably shouldn't be. But is.

As with all things. Is.

Dark Archive

Cole Deschain wrote:
Set wrote:
Pity it only had those four seasons. {Don't try to convince me that there was a fifth season. Like any Highlander movies after the first one, or Aliens movies after the second one, I pretend they don't exist.) :)
Yep, "Sleeping in Light" was a great way to end the fourth season, that's for sure!

Honestly, and I'll probably be branded a B5 heretic for this, but I'm not really a fan of "Sleeping in Light". It's a just a few characters ambling around the station with no real coherent plotline. Of course, that makes it a fitting end for season 5, which essentially shares that same synopsis.

The second half of season 4 might have been rushed, but that was nothing compared to how bad season 5 was due to the last-minute renewal after all the worthy plot threads had been rushed to conclusion.

Scarab Sages

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

"Sleeping in Light" was the original season 4 ending when they thought they were going to be cancelled.

"The Deconstruction of Falling Stars" at the end of season 4 was a rush job so there would be a full 22 episodes for the season.


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Black Dougal wrote:
I remember watching it on its original run and being confused as hell by the Londo arc..I thought I had missed episodes and wondered how that happened.

I think TNT got over-excited at Neil Gaiman writing the episode and thought his name would be a big draw for sweeps, so moved the episode further up front. They may have also been despairing over the general quality of Season 5's first half and wanted to move a better episode further up-front.

Quote:
"The Deconstruction of Falling Stars" at the end of season 4 was a rush job so there would be a full 22 episodes for the season.

Deconstruction was the first episode filmed for Season 5, so it wasn't really rushed (in the US, the end of each season was aired with the first few episodes of the next anyway). I quite like Deconstruction, even if it's "homage" to A Canticle for Leibowitz ended up being a bit more overt than was originally planned.

Scarab Sages

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I know, but it still seems like a rush job.
They had to write it, film it and air it pretty quickly.

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