Ancient Lorekeeper Question -- What Modifies Vampiric Touch?


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I'm playing a tankish oracle of life, ancient lore keeper in a Pathfinder campaign with some friends next month. Hashing out spell choices from the ancient lorekeeper bonus list and considering vampiric touch as a level 8 choice. As I've never had access to this spell as a divine caster, it raises a few added questions for me:

1. Strength modifies the melee touch attack, but only for to-hit, correct?
2. Spells with luck bonuses like divine favor -- do they modify to hit and damage or just to-hit as with strength?
3. Any other quirks about this spell I need to know?

Best!


I suppose this is another one of those weapon-like spells questions. Hoping the answer isn't too murky.

Scarab Sages

Consider buying a pair of Deliquescent gloves. Not only will they make all of your weapons corrosive, they will also add 1d6 acid to all of your touch attacks, including any touch spells you cast.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

1) Correct, although if you have weapon finesse, I believe you can finesse your touch attack. In either case, there is no bonus to damage.

2) Divine Favor explicitly states that the bonus does not apply to spell damage.

3) Search for existing threads on the temp HP from Vampiric Touch overlapping or stacking. They will reference THIS FAQ.


Thanks Slim. I probably should have specified that the specific wording in divine favor was what made me question whether some of the other like spells would modify touch attack damage. For example, would the same apply to divine power which lacks similar specific wording? Will definitely check the FAQ.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

@Chromnos: That's one of those weapon-like spells questions. I'm inclined to say not, because seems to be boosting strength-related things, not spell-related things, but we'll just have to wait for FAQ adjudication.


Seems that questions like these have cropped up a bit. I wonder if a general weapon like spell and what modifies spells FAQ would, overall, be helpful.

And I guess a related what modifies touch spells question would also be helpful. For example, in the FAQ, it notes that bard song modifies the attack and damage of ranged touch spells. So I suppose it would be reasonable to assume that bard song likewise modified melee touch attacks. And if bard song, a morale bonus, could modify such spells then why not a luck bonus like divine power unless otherwise specified?

Of course, it's pretty well known that you can use sneak attack to modify these precision based spells, but other than bard song and sneak attack (yes, and yes) and divine favor (specifically no), there seems to be a big gray space.


Imbicatus wrote:
Consider buying a pair of Deliquescent gloves. Not only will they make all of your weapons corrosive, they will also add 1d6 acid to all of your touch attacks, including any touch spells you cast.

Thx for this. Am in a home campaign and access to specific items is a bit dicey. But will definitely think about putting it on my wish list.

Shadow Lodge

If you have anyway of adding sneak attack, the extra damage dealt will add to your temporary HP from vampiric touch. Since The spell is the source of the sneak attack damage.


Gol Zayvian wrote:
If you have anyway of adding sneak attack, the extra damage dealt will add to your temporary HP from vampiric touch. Since The spell is the source of the sneak attack damage.

Thanks Gol. So my party composition is a bow specialized ranger, a kensai magus who generally likes to hang back, a rogue and an oracle of life ancient lorekeeper that I've been building to be the meat shield and heal the party. It's gone fairly well through the first five levels and my chief concerns are to 1 be enough of a threat to draw heat off my buddies, 2 be able to take the heat from focus firing when it happens, and 3 have fun playing the build I've set up and am calling The Witch Pit Fighter (hopefully to be posting in builds section at some point).

Getting some sneak attack is probably off the table, though. But vampiric touch was interesting to me in tight situations. I could, for example use energy body to heal as a move action, use battle healer to heal as a swift, and still deliver a vampiric touch attack which both dealt damage and added thp as my standard. If I went this route, as an option, it would be nice to know if other buffs that are accesible to me could add a bit of an edge to the touch attack.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

I have a Witch who routinely starts every day casting Spite with Mythic Vampiric Touch.

Mythic makes the dice d8s and Blood Money takes care of the inks. Besides, it's creepy to make a ward with your own blood.


SlimGauge wrote:

I have a Witch who routinely starts every day casting Spite with Mythic Vampiric Touch.

Mythic makes the dice d8s and Blood Money takes care of the inks. Besides, it's creepy to make a ward with your own blood.

That's a great spell combo. And I really like the creepy blood ink flavor of it all. Not sure there's a way for me to access Spite, though.

Shadow Lodge

So as a frontline spontaneous caster, don't forget meta magic. If the idea is to stand there and take it, you'll be able to 5'step out of most threat ranges and use a full rd to cast metamagically enhance spells. Vamp touch gets pretty mean when you start slapping max/emp/intensified spell onto it. also don't rule out the power of spell penetration to bypass SR.
And then there is Spiked Gauntlets of Spell Storing:

Paizo.com/prd wrote:
Spell Storing: A spell storing weapon allows a spellcaster to store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level in the weapon. (The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action.) Anytime the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires. (This special ability is an exception to the general rule that casting a spell from an item takes at least as long as casting that spell normally.) Once the spell has been cast from the weapon, a spellcaster can cast any other targeted spell of up to 3rd level into it. The weapon magically imparts to the wielder the name of the spell currently stored within it. A randomly rolled spell storing weapon has a 50% chance to have a spell stored in it already.

You can cast vamp touch and punch to deliver 2 of them at the same time, (one of them stored in your gauntlet) and the one you just cast.


Gol Zayvian wrote:

So as a frontline spontaneous caster, don't forget meta magic. If the idea is to stand there and take it, you'll be able to 5'step out of most threat ranges and use a full rd to cast metamagically enhance spells. Vamp touch gets pretty mean when you start slapping max/emp/intensified spell onto it. also don't rule out the power of spell penetration to bypass SR.

And then there is Spiked Gauntlets of Spell Storing:

You can cast vamp touch and punch to deliver 2 of them at the same time, (one of them stored in your gauntlet) and the one you just cast.

The full round to meta magic does fiddly things with action economy. So that may be somewhat situational. As for the gauntlet stuff. Oh now that is explosive! But I wonder if it's really technically legal. Woundn't the gauntlet attack count as a separate weapon attack and therefore not be combinable with the actual spell attack?

Shadow Lodge

Yes, however you have to deliver the punch the round after you cast the vamp touch because an unarmed strike does not count as the free touch granted by the spell, and using touch to deliver the spell means the gauntlet isn't dealing the damage necessary to trigger the stored spell. But it's a nice move to cast vamp touch and hold the charge round one while you move to close the distance to your enemy.


Ah. Forgot about hold the charge. Now that's very creative.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

You have to use either a touch attack or an unarmed strike to deliver the touch spell. See the "Holding the Charge" section of "Touch Spells in Combat"

'Holding the Charge' wrote:
Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.

However, I don't think this can be done as your "free" touch attack as part of casting the spell, since it can only be done while holding a charge.

Shadow Lodge

SlimGauge wrote:

You have to use either a touch attack or an unarmed strike to deliver the touch spell. See the "Holding the Charge" section of "Touch Spells in Combat"

'Holding the Charge' wrote:
Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
However, I don't think this can be done as your "free" touch attack as part of casting the spell, since it can only be done while holding a charge.

You're correct, you don't get the free touch this way, because in order to trigger the stored spell, you need to have the gauntlet deal damage (which requires an unarmed strike). So you hold until the following round and then punch delivering both at once.


But the spiked gauntlet counts as a weapon, right? So it looks like the unarmered strike section here wouldn't apply.

But what it would allow me to do is cast, hold the charge, and attack with claws from my abyssal eldritch heritage feat while holding the charge :).

I think I'm starting to like this vampiric touch thingy ;).

Shadow Lodge

I will be starting a new thread...


Saw it. Great question, really.

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