Here it is. Go nuts!
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Yes, of course they do. The thing is...the game already has many of the tools necessary to make martials much more interesting. They just need to be consolidated and codified in a sensible way, and the onerous restrictions on their use (whether it's feat trees or being hidden away in archetypes) need to be removed. A few random ideas:
1) Make potions a lot cheaper. This is good for martials because it gives them cheap, "non spell" access to many of the buffs they need to get by at mid-high levels (up to and including flight), but it is also good for casters (especially Sorcerers and healers) because it frees up their resources for other things.
2) Reform the poison system. This guy has some great suggestions. A poison system that is actually useful could offer martials who were willing to use them a whole range of interesting possibilities.
3) Make skills useful again. Things like the Distraction ability of the Burglar archetype and Darkstalker from 3.5 make having the Stealth skill actually good. Unchain them! Make martials (...cough...Rogue...cough...) the masters of the best skill in the game, Perception. Make Heal more useful. And so on...
3.5) I would argue that the social skills are already quite useful, and that many people grossly overrate the power of "social magic", or rather, underrate its potential drawbacks, likely because they are accustomed to play styles in which social interactions are not very important to begin with. Casting Charm Person is already far less useful and more risky than getting someone to like you (or convincing them of something) through the use of skills.
4) Reform the skill points system to not grant bonus points only based off of Int.
5) Give the martials cool non-magical abilities which are actually possible...like trap-building and hypnotism. To wit: a couple of abilities from my game:
- Hypnotist: you may hypnotize others. Against willing subjects, the hypnosis automatically succeeds. Against unwilling subjects (who must be restrained in some way - though this can work through the sound of your voice, so it doesn't matter if their eyes are open or not), the subject is hypnotized if it fails a Will save with a DC equal to 10 + your Bluff skill bonus. If the subject makes the save, it may make an opposed Bluff vs. Sense Motive check against you to pretend to be hypnotized. If it fails the save, you can elect to do one of two things to a hypnotized subject. You can either implant a suggestion which functions like the spell with your Rogue level as the caster level, or you can compel the target to truthfully answer a number of questions (to the extent of its knowledge) equal to the amount by which the subject failed its Will save. Only one suggestion may be planted at a time. Once a subject succeeds at the Will save vs. hypnosis, it may not be attempted again for 24 hours. The hypnotized subject does not remember anything that happened while under hypnosis. It takes one minute to hypnotize a subject, plus whatever time is necessary to ask questions or issue instructions.
Feats:...
- Trapsmith: learn to make mundane traps (eg. pit traps, snare traps, tripwires, etc.). Any reasonably feasible trap can be made with the correct materials at hand (generally a Survival check of DC [10 + 1/1 ft. radius] will provide the materials in wild areas - you can take 10 on this check). Trap types can be combined (eg. pit trap + wounding trap) provided a realistic explanation as to their functioning is given. Mundane physical traps using alchemical materials or magical substances (eg. Sovereign Glue, Holy Water, delayed-fuse Alchemist's bomb, etc.) can also be set up given the proper materials.
- prereqs: Fighter or Rogue 5th; Survival 5 ranks
- the number of traps which can be made in a day is limited only by time and materials.
- there is no DC penalty for extraordinary traps.
- DCs for Perception, Disable Device, opposed Escape Artist checks, and Reflex saves to avoid are all 10 + 1/2 CL + WIS modifier.
- traps are base 5' radius and take 1 minute to construct (x10 for pit traps). Larger traps may be constructed by squaring the number of minutes with the diameter, in 5' increments (eg. 5' diameter takes 1 minute, 10' diameter takes 4 minutes, 15' diameter takes 9 minutes, 20' diameter takes 16 minutes, etc.)
- basic effects possible:
- wounding: 1d6/level (max 10d6)
- entangle
- grapple (snare)
- create difficult terrain
- knock prone
- other effects may be possible, depending on materials available. Use your imagination.
- see: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---rang er-archetypes/trapper/ranger-traps#TOC-Snare-Trap-Ex-or-Su-
Give fighters equipment tricks for free for their chosen weapon groups... this gives them some interesting versatility and demonstates how they know their weapons better than anyone.
Give rogues Dirty trick feats for free... i mean,, that is simple.. after all, it FITS the rogue (dirty fighters) and allows them to be a bit better in combat without tying up huge amount of feats...
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Are you asking "Do they need...?" or "WHAT do they need?"
Do they need? Yes.
What do they need? More out of combat relevance. The ability to use martial abilities (feats, maneuvers, tricks, etc.) that are determined by BAB and are otherwise "free" to a martial class. Some "martial only" abilities. Return the Rogue to his role as the only one capable of spotting & disarming traps. Allow martials to move and take full attacks every round. (Anyone else is limited and must make the choice: move and only get 1 attack?) Just to name a few...
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Do we really need another of these threads?
This isn't even amusing anymore.
My answer here, is more or less the same as it is in the other.
No. Martials could do with some interesting do-dads and I wouldn't mind some better scaling feats but do they "need" it? No. They might want it... They don't need it.
You are free to wrong in as many threads as you want.
You are free to wrong in as many threads as you want.I think you mean, "You are free to be wrong in as many threads as you want."
And yes, the constant existence of these threads is indeed permission for people on this forum to be wrong in as many threads as they wish.
Its just getting to be frustrating to constantly see this same thread over, and over, and over, and over, and over. I'm beginning to think that we should just petition the mods to change the General Forum into the "Martials Need/Want Nice/Interesting/Better Things" forum.
If it's so frustrating, why are you here, in this thread, helping extend this newest conversation on the topic?
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THIS is the best argument I've seen so far regarding this topic.
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If it's so frustrating, why are you here, in this thread, helping extend this newest conversation on the topic?
One can only assume to either tell us that we are playing fighters wrong . Or worse to escalate the thread in the hopes that it gets closed. Other than that if he or she is so frustrated which such threads. Why keep posting in them. When it's a topic that I don't like. I don't feel the need nor forced to post in it.
One can only assume to either tell us that we are playing fighters wrong . Or worse to escalate the thread in the hopes that it gets closed. Other than that if he or she is so frustrated which such threads. Why keep posting in them. When it's a topic that I don't like. I don't feel the need nor forced to post in it.
If it's so frustrating, why are you here, in this thread, helping extend this newest conversation on the topic?
Hmm, it generally seems to be a better idea to presume lack of malice when gauging someone's intent. Tends to be more accurate AND better for relationships / attitudes overall. Gonna go with the former explanation for that reason.
HWalsh, we have our reasons for thinking this kind of thing. You have yours for thinking otherwise. That's all cool. If these back-and-forths discussing the details and challenging each other's points aren't your cup of tea, there's a "Hide this thread" button to the right of every discussion topic on any given forum page here. I recommend using it so your experience on these boards is more fun / less frustrating.
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Their a point where one has to wonder malice though. If a poster either finds a thread topic frustrating. I just can't see the reason or even the need to post in it. It's like a person who hates going to a bar because they play the music too loudly. Yet keeps going to the bar. While he is allowed to do so he kind of loses any reason to complain about it IMO. At this point Hwalsh is not going to convince anyone or almost no one on the martial caster disparity side IMO. While he makes good suggestions he also undermined his defence because it also highlights the flaws of the class.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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So, on topic, here's my stance in a nutshell:
Every character needs to have access to whatever tools are necessary to meaningfully engage the setting/narrative at said narrative's established degree of "fantasy-ness".
So, on topic, here's my stance in a nutshell:
Every character needs to have access to whatever tools are necessary to meaningfully engage the setting/narrative at said narrative's established degree of "fantasy-ness".
Well said, Jiggy!
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Well said, Jiggy!So, on topic, here's my stance in a nutshell:
Every character needs to have access to whatever tools are necessary to meaningfully engage the setting/narrative at said narrative's established degree of "fantasy-ness".
Thanks.
Now, if we want to move beyond the "nutshell" version, this notion has some ramifications.
First, if you're either designing a ruleset or choosing one for your campaign, you have to decide what your setting/narrative's established degree of "fantasy-ness" actually is. For example: is your world primarily realistic, with most obstacles being things like locked doors, spike traps, and dudes with knives; possibly culminating in facing a mildly-fantastic creature (like a werewolf)? That's a very different level of fantasy than one where the typical obstacles are things like interplanar conflicts, mind-bending fey, teleporting demons, and flying spellcasters. Figure out where your story lands.
Second, determine what tools you will require to be able to (meaningfully!) engage that level of fantasy in the narrative. What does your narrative require of a character to be able to interact with/overcome a locked door? What abilities must a character possess to be able to take a starring role in the narrative when vexed by an invisible faerie that's using mind-affecting magic? What tools are required in order for a character to continue affecting the plot when the next scene is supposed to take place on a different plane of existence? And so forth.
Finally, look at the set of tools that you've determined are allowed to engage the narrative you've chosen, and make sure (whether in design of your ruleset or selecting which one to use) that every character has access to those allowed tools.
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5) Give the martials cool non-magical abilities which are actually possible...like trap-building and hypnotism.
This right here is exactly why martials already don't get nice things. Because they need to be "actually possible". Whereas magic can do anything because it's magic, I don't have to explain tits.
You already put in a nigh-magical version of hypnosis in there, drop the "martials need to be realistic" charade because that's what's holding them back. Everything they get needs to be super limited to the point of worthlessness because it's not "realistic" that they can do anything but hit things.
THIS is the best argument I've seen so far regarding this topic.
Should have posted the version with the second verse.
5) Give the martials cool non-magical abilities which are actually possible...like trap-building and hypnotism.This right here is exactly why martials already don't get nice things. Because they need to be "actually possible". Whereas magic can do anything because it's magic, I don't have to explain t#!&.
You already put in a nigh-magical version of hypnosis in there, drop the "martials need to be realistic" charade because that's what's holding them back. Everything they get needs to be super limited to the point of worthlessness because it's not "realistic" that they can do anything but hit things.
I agree with you completely and do exactly what you suggest in my own games, but...taking this turn requires setting specific changes which are almost certainly never going to happen in Pathfinder.
Jiggy brings up a good point: Pathfinder isn't really a "one size fits all" system. It's geared toward high magic/high fantasy (despite the whole "15-point buy" design philosophy supposedly behind their APs.)
If they established different parameters to cover a wider range of play-styles (high fantasy; mythic; low-magic; urban fantasy; tech; etc.), that might help.
I'm running my own campaign in a low-magic setting (it's the end of Time and the multiverse is winding down)), and had to do a TON of tweaking to make it work using Pathfinder. Basically, I was doing my own version of "automatic progression" so that magic - magic items in particular - could remain rare and valuable. No "WBL" b.s.
It can be done, but it takes a LOT of work.
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Jiggy brings up a good point: Pathfinder isn't really a "one size fits all" system. It's geared toward high magic/high fantasy (despite the whole "15-point buy" design philosophy supposedly behind their APs.)
That's actually not quite how I'd characterize Pathfinder. To me, Pathfinder feels* like they skipped the "decide on your level of fantasy" step, and various elements of the game were developed with different (assumed) expectations. It's like the people designing the spellcasters were assuming a setting like Harry Potter and the people designing martials were assuming a setting like Game of Thrones.
*Yeah, since Pathfinder was just an evolution of 3.5, its schizophrenic structure is probably more a result of uncoordinated incremental changes than of what I described above. I was just meaning that's how the finished product feels to me, not that I think that's necessarily how it actually got there.
Yes, martials need more interesting things. Wow that was easy. Now if only there was a thread titled: "Why do martials need more interesting things?" Then we could get to the real meat of the issue. :p
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Yes, martials need more interesting things. Wow that was easy. Now if only there was a thread titled: "Why do martials need more interesting things?" Then we could get to the real meat of the issue. :p
I look forward to the sequel, "What interesting things should martials have?"
Yes, martials need more interesting things. Wow that was easy. Now if only there was a thread titled: "Why do martials need more interesting things?" Then we could get to the real meat of the issue. :pI look forward to the sequel, "What interesting things should martials have?"
I would actually like to see a thread that is about what they should have. No arguing, no long-winded rambles about why they should or shouldn't. Just delineate what they should have and at what power level you are looking at.
In the vast majority of the posts, even people on the same relative side of "Yes, definitely they should have things" cannot quite agree on what power levels those things should take. Should it be minor variations on physical stuff? Lasers from your hands by squinting and training really hard? Hulk-level jumping?
Except for a very few people, everyone seems to be behind the idea of martials and interesting changes. Talk about the changes rather than arguing with HWalsh or bemoaning that Paizo isn't doing what you want. Produce ideas that everyone can use off the framework they've given us. Maybe they'll come around, maybe they won't. But you'll have something to show for it.
The revised action economy helps a lot. Automatic bonus progression also helps martials not feel beholden to spellcasters.
I like it when a twf rogue can move and strike twice in the surprise round for 22d6+50+status-effects.
I would actually like to see a thread that is about what they should have. No arguing, no long-winded rambles about why they should or shouldn't. Just delineate what they should have and at what power level you are looking at.
In the vast majority of the posts, even people on the same relative side of "Yes, definitely they should have things" cannot quite agree on what power levels those things should take. Should it be minor variations on physical stuff? Lasers from your hands by squinting and training really hard? Hulk-level jumping?
Except for a very few people, everyone seems to be behind the idea of martials and interesting changes. Talk about the changes rather than arguing with HWalsh or bemoaning that Paizo isn't doing what you want. Produce ideas that everyone can use off the framework they've given us. Maybe they'll come around, maybe they won't. But you'll have something to show for it.
That's why I posed my first post in this thread to nudge it in that direction: WHAT do they need?
Home-brew or Paizo, 3PP, whatever - I'm looking for things that resonate with me and my style of GMing and play.
Winding Path Renegade Brawler has my favorite non-magical ability that I wish more martial classes had similar things to.
"As a move action, she can leap without attempting an Acrobatics check, jumping any distance up to her move speed (upward movement counts as double, as when flying). She can leap in this way once per day per brawler level."
This is just a really cool thing! Paired with access to the Monk's Fast Movement ability that the archetype gives as well, and you're superhuman jumping around all over the place. That archetype plus Shield Champion (bouncing a shield off everything!) combine for a really fun-to-play Captain America style superhero, without needing any magic.
Its not as good as flying, obviously, and you can't do it until 8th level, but still pretty awesome. A thing that makes your character feel like a non-magical superhero that isn't just "I hit that guy real hard!" is a real cool thing.
More non-combat options would open more roleplaying opportunities for them, which would be a good thing.
Winding Path Renegade Brawler has my favorite non-magical ability that I wish more martial classes had similar things to.
"As a move action, she can leap without attempting an Acrobatics check, jumping any distance up to her move speed (upward movement counts as double, as when flying). She can leap in this way once per day per brawler level."
This is just a really cool thing! Paired with access to the Monk's Fast Movement ability that the archetype gives as well, and you're superhuman jumping around all over the place. That archetype plus Shield Champion (bouncing a shield off everything!) combine for a really fun-to-play Captain America style superhero, without needing any magic.
Its not as good as flying, obviously, and you can't do it until 8th level, but still pretty awesome. A thing that makes your character feel like a non-magical superhero that isn't just "I hit that guy real hard!" is a real cool thing.
Remove the "once per day per level" clause and "half movement upward" bit (after a few levels at the very least) and it'd be perfect.
Are there any other cool things like that out there? Cool non-magical abilities that aren't necessarily about hitting someone real hard? It'd be real nice to have a list of all the fun abilities that do exist, as examples of stuff we'd like to see more of!
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Are there any other cool things like that out there? Cool non-magical abilities that aren't necessarily about hitting someone real hard?
Not very many, unfortunately. There's some utility to be had from the Exploit Weakness ability (Martial Artist Monk and Steel-Breaker Brawler), since it lets you completely ignore Hardness with a Wisdom check.
The Slayer's Blood Reader can let you see the exact HP of your Studied Target. So as a Swift you can scan a target and see exactly how well off it is, including Unconscious targets. Would be a great ability for a battlefield Medic.
The Gunslinger's Utility Shot Deed is perhaps the most interesting class feature it gets, and as low as 3rd level no less. Easily stop bleeding, move important small objects (somehow without damaging them), and blowing off locks with a single Disable Device rank.
I stuck with Ex abilities. For obvious reasons, Su abilities that martial classes may still get (like Spell Sunder) were left off.
Skill unlocks can be cool, but only the rogue can get more than one. (Rogue's edge, cutting edge)
Skill Unlocks, unfortunately, are largely trash, especially at any level before 15th.
Skill Unlocks, unfortunately, are largely trash, especially at any level before 15th.
The 5s are meh. The 10s are pretty useful.
Some, yes. Sense Motive has some cool ones for example, but it's at best a quarter of the skills that have something worth a Feat.
Some, yes. Sense Motive has some cool ones for example, but it's at best a quarter of the skills that have something worth a Feat.
There are a lot of skills and pcs can only take the feat once. Rogues can get two for a feat after level 10. (Extra rogue talent cutting edge)
I'm aware, but what I'm saying is there's not many that are WORTH that Feat.
Would you spend a Feat on:
-Reduced distance penalties (Perception)
-Any of the Acrobatics upgrades, which require OBSCENE investment into the skill to get any benefit from it.
-Halve a penalty after a failed Bluff?
I would not, and most of them are like this. I wouldn't really value most Unlocks if they were free.
Granted I'd spend a Feat on Detect Thoughts (Sense Motive), combat boosts (Knowledge), or making people Frightened (Intimidate), but most of those are kind of build specific, and you probably wouldn't spend a Feat to get more than the ones you get for free.
While we're making edits remove the 'enhancement bonus' clause from the Monk's Fast Movement [both in the original source and any archetypes that receive it.]Remove the "once per day per level" clause and "half movement upward" bit (after a few levels at the very least) and it'd be perfect.Winding Path Renegade Brawler has my favorite non-magical ability that I wish more martial classes had similar things to.
"As a move action, she can leap without attempting an Acrobatics check, jumping any distance up to her move speed (upward movement counts as double, as when flying). She can leap in this way once per day per brawler level."
This is just a really cool thing! Paired with access to the Monk's Fast Movement ability that the archetype gives as well, and you're superhuman jumping around all over the place. That archetype plus Shield Champion (bouncing a shield off everything!) combine for a really fun-to-play Captain America style superhero, without needing any magic.
Its not as good as flying, obviously, and you can't do it until 8th level, but still pretty awesome. A thing that makes your character feel like a non-magical superhero that isn't just "I hit that guy real hard!" is a real cool thing.
Yep, there's LOADS of minor but good changes that could be made to the unchained monk to make it a great class. Hopefully I can have that new version written up sometime soon for the Homebrew board.
I'm aware, but what I'm saying is there's not many that are WORTH that Feat.
Would you spend a Feat on:
-Reduced distance penalties (Perception)
-Any of the Acrobatics upgrades, which require OBSCENE investment into the skill to get any benefit from it.
-Halve a penalty after a failed Bluff?
I would not, and most of them are like this. I wouldn't really value most Unlocks if they were free.
Granted I'd spend a Feat on Detect Thoughts (Sense Motive), combat boosts (Knowledge), or making people Frightened (Intimidate), but most of those are kind of build specific, and you probably wouldn't spend a Feat to get more than the ones you get for free.
I would be spending feats on things like skill focus otherwise.
Reduced penalties is a pretty good benefit. Acrobatics one means you are no longer punished with reduced speed for trying to dodge aoos. Being able to dodge on a ledge is also good.
The stealth one is great. Reduce sniping to a -5 from minus 20, half all penalties.
Idk what you dislike about perception, it makes you a better scout.
The bluff one is basically a plus 5 after ten and magic after 15.
I'm about to play a pirate campaign so swim is looking good.
Climb speed from climb.
Appraise magic items and illusions.
Disguise faster or without penalties.
Escape faster
Slight of hand and umd are kind of garbage. Slight of hand makes me extra mad. 5 should be slight of hand TO steal not make a check for +2 bonus. #%%#%@^&!^**$%&$
Actually that would probably be one of the easiest fixes for both classes. Combine the fighter and rogue into one class and call them...I don't know, the Mercenary? The new class would probably be a tier 4 at least.
Actually that would probably be one of the easiest fixes for both classes. Combine the fighter and rogue into one class and call them...I don't know, the Mercenary? The new class would probably be a tier 4 at least.
Hmmm Unchained rogue plus stamina fighter plus Unchained action economy plus automatic bonus progression.
That edges into tier 3. The fighter feats free up the general feats for skill boost and utility.
Really the fighter part is the weak element. Fighter is tier 5 unless you grab 2-3 good archetypes. Rogue is tier 4 but the fighter just isn't bringing much to the rogue outside of more damage, more fort and more ac. The fighter isn't bringing increased utility that the rogue actually needs to bump up lots of tiers.
Actually that would probably be one of the easiest fixes for both classes. Combine the fighter and rogue into one class and call them...I don't know, the Mercenary? The new class would probably be a tier 4 at least.Hmmm Unchained rogue plus stamina fighter plus Unchained action economy plus automatic bonus progression.
That edges into tier 3. The fighter feats free up the general feats for skill boost and utility.
Really the fighter part is the weak element. Fighter is tier 5 unless you grab 2-3 good archetypes. Rogue is tier 4 but the fighter just isn't bringing much to the rogue outside of more damage, more fort and more ac. The fighter isn't bringing increased utility that the rogue actually needs to bump up lots of tiers.
Sounds like a class I'd have a blast playing. Which explains why I am enjoying the Slayer so much, as it is the closest thing to a fighter/rogue class.