Antipaladin Strength or Charisma?


Advice


I've read through both Bodhi and Marshmallow's antipaladin guides. They extensive and helped me understand the antipaladin class much better. But I'm curious, does one raise their PC's strength or charisma ability scores for ability score increases after level 1?


Generally strength, unless:

a) your CHA is on an odd number

b) you don't have enough CHA to cast all of your spells (unlikely as you need only CHA 14)


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Charisma helps with a lot of your abilities, like getting extra touches and channels which are very helpful when it comes to doing damage or healing yourself. Especially since smite good is only meh as an ability.

It also improves your saves, as well as the DCs for your channeling, spells, and your cruelties.

It's also the key ability for most of your skills.

Strength will help you hit more consistently, and give a small amount of damage compared to the guaranteed additional damage from hitting with channel smite/conductive touch of corruption.


How is the Knight of the Sepulcher? It seems like a pretty powerful archetype if built properly (maybe with some dips in Oracle?)


Mordcah wrote:
How is the Knight of the Sepulcher? It seems like a pretty powerful archetype if built properly (maybe with some dips in Oracle?)

Extremely weak considering it's main function is to allow to you be healed by negative energy, which can be done with a feat, a level dip into Oracle, or the right racial combination.

If you are looking for a decent archetype, try this one.

Grand Lodge

This is really a matter of preference. Do you want to hit more and hit harder? Strength. Do you want better saves, better touch/channel DCs, more spells and SU uses per day, and better smite bonuses? Charisma.


Strength.

Since Charisma is the only mental ability score you really need, you can just buy Headbands of Alluring Charisma for relatively little money.

But since it would be really very helpful for your belts to boost Con and eventually even Dex as well as Str, the bonuses are going to accrue very slowly, and you'll need all the boosts you can get.

Oh, and master marshmallow, just FYI, Necromantic Affinity doesn't let you be healed by touch of corruption or channel negative energy, just by inflict spells.


Im running a variation on antipaladin currently through our groups giantslayer and I wouldn't give up str for charisma definitely. Ill only put maybe one point into it to have any bonus at all. The extra abilities are not that a big thing - it's still a melee class and thus straight combat is still the main thing for him.

HOWEVER..Im using the dread vanguard archetype and even parts of stonelord..meaning that I dont have spells and I dont have unholy grace (or whatsitcalled), but i do plan on making fun use of intimidate and radiant charge (for which i could use charisma for more dice to the smack), but still Ill probably only pump cha once to an even number, then go to other stats.

Out of curiosity..thats for Way of the Wicked isnt it?


Blakmane wrote:

Generally strength, unless:

a) your CHA is on an odd number

b) you don't have enough CHA to cast all of your spells (unlikely as you need only CHA 14)

Even then, I might question having high casting stat.

Clerics can get by with 14, since that covers them for their first four spell levels, and by then they can probably find a headband or something. So if you are going as a melee character, you should seriously consider boosting your bread and butter melee stat.

This goes for paladins/anit-s as well. You CAN get cha to attack...but not very often at early levels. And as an antipaladin, you are even more likely to face neutral characters than a regular paladin (paladins don't pick fights unless they have too- usually only jerks fight them, and that tends to mean msotly evil for humanoids; antipaladins will fight anybody).

Also, the amount of extra damage from smite is...meh... early on, so you might as well go with the stat that directly feeds into damage (And you can get 1.5x of with 2 handing).

Anyway, you can easily raise cha later with a headband, since you don't care about wisdom- at all.


Strength.

Unless you're playing an unusually good-guy heavy game, your Charisma bonuses will not come into play for most of your hit chances. While it is important for your saves and your spells, your spells are not terribly powerful and the best ones don't force your opponents to make saves. You won't ever have an amazing number of spells, either, and channeling is a more secondary function for you than for, say, a Cleric. There's a reason why it takes so many Lay on Hands/Touch of Corruption to use.


Has anyone had success with an Anti-Oradin build or an Anti-Oradin/Holy Vindicator build?

I feel like having some of the Antipaladin Abilities, and getting Oracle spell progression AND maintain Full BAB progression through Holy Vindicator could be potent.

For instance - Antipaladin 5 (possibly dread Vanguard seeing levels in Oracle could pass for spellcasting), Black Blood Oracle 1 (or 2), Holy Vindicator 10? (I don't know if it would be smart to do Oracle or Antipaladin after all levels of Holy Vindicator)

I've seen this particular build used with Bones for creating a pretty hefty undead HD pool, but I'm not necessary interested in making undead minions.

I was thinking of a concept of using Channel Smite and Intimidating along with some of the Holy Vindicator's variations on Channeling (Free Channel Smite Feat, Stigmata, Blood Fire, Versatile Channel, Bloodrain) as becoming like a Negative Energy Blood Knight. I guess in theory it seemed somewhat powerful, with the choice to use a ranged channel, or a melee channel to inflict status effects on targets. Like some mix of Darth Vader / the Emporer empowering himself with Negative Energy (Stigmata bonus to Attack Rolls, Touch of Corruption, etc.), but also shooting out Negative Energy to strike opposing foes (Note that I don't quite care about Smite Good, nor Vindicator's shield - we'll likely face good, but it's situational and he will be using a Two-Handed weapon.)

Basically - Aura of Fear + Intimidate then using Touch of Corruption/Channel Negative Energy to kill off melee/ranged attackers in a similar fashion seems like pretty powerful debuffing. And getting 7 levels or Oracle spell casting seems to be a bit more powerful than Antipaladin (but I could be wrong).

Does this seem like a plausible idea and good use of the antipaladin class? Or is it smarter to just stay Antipaladin?


Anti-Oradin requires you or your party to invest much more into being effective at healing. Oracle and Paladin can heal right off the bat. Anti-Oradin needs either undead party members or feats to be able to heal with negative.


To be honest - I wasn't looking at Anti-Oradin for healing, but rather for the Black Blood archtype specifically then to jump into Holy Vindicator for self-healing, Oracle casting progression and improvements to channeling negative energy while staying full-BAB for all but a single level through level 16 - 17.

So, for instance 1 level as a Black Blood Oracle then 10 levels as a Holy Vindicator would get the PC to a Level 8 Oracle for spellcasting abilities, along with being able to have an option to heal with negative energy. I think I'd either take Lore (Side Step Secret) for CHA bonus to AC, or Dark Tapestry (Wings of Darkness) for a better spell selection and Wings free once per day...

And 10 Levels of Holy Vindicator lets the PC improve CL for channel energy, at the expense of uses since progress stops for Touch of Corruption. In addition, they gain unique ways to manipulate channel energy that makes it more potent when used.

The effect, theoretically, was to create a Full BAB class (minus one level) with the antipaladin's powerful Touch of Corruption/Cruelty, Unholy Resilience, Aura of Cowardice (for Intimidate debuffing), and Fiendish Boon, gain better spell progression with a divine CHA class as well as healing from negative energy and also get powerful boosts to combat, with the Holy Vindicator like Stigmata, Divine Wrath, Bloodfire, a free feat that I was going to pick up anyway, Versatile Channel, Bloodrain and Divine Retribution.

Really, I was curious if this was worth it even though antipaladins lack a true ranged attack outside of 30feet? The Black Blood Oracle/Holy Vindicator was somewhat of a thought to solve that. But the trade off is losing a lot of powerful antipaladin abilities, such as two cruelties, Touch of Corruption use progress, more extremely good auras, etc.


Uh.

Would it be any help if I offered up this feat?


Like I said, that only works on cure and inflict spells, not on touch of corruption or channel negative energy.


Since you're toying with the Dread Vanguard and Channeling, you might want to take a look at my build.
Beware I never tested it, and in any case I'm not familiar with martial characters. I think it should focus on fear rather than AOOs.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Extremely weak considering it's main function is to allow to you be healed by negative energy, which can be done with a feat,

Hi, that feat only lets inflict spells cure you, it doesn't say all negative energy


Oh, to the op:

You want charisma, mostly. Your touch of corruption effects can be SUPER nasty, and having a hard dc on them is pretty great imo. Especially when combined with a conductive weapon


CWheezy wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Extremely weak considering it's main function is to allow to you be healed by negative energy, which can be done with a feat,
Hi, that feat only lets inflict spells cure you, it doesn't say all negative energy

Combining the options is really the best way to go about it.

None the less it is better than the archetype.

Bones Oracle VMC gives you the Resist Life revelation that gives you the affinity you want without giving up class levels.

Though technically you can't take any revelations even though you have to take a revelation... it's worded weird.


Thank you everyone for your help!

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