Where to go from here - succubi, souls, a very dead 'slinger and more

[Arthur G]

Hoping to get some ideas from the creative minds I regularly see on this forum.

The situation is this: my players have finally reached Xin-Shalast and in following the yellow brick road they encounter no Cowardly Lion but rather two less than cowardly rune giants. The ensuing fight did not go well for my players, leaving two of them dead. On the one hand I'm never overly happy about killing my players, on the other I am quite happy that these towering runelord created freak-shows are now established as a serious threat, as they should be. But on the marilith's third hand I'm not particularly bothered either way as a GM, because at this level death is quite literally cheap and I know that my players have the capability to resurrect their fallen friends.

Except then I remember; one of the deceased, the party's gunslinger, has sold his soul to a demon.

Specifically, he sold it to Delvahine, the incestuous succubus from Runeforge. Now there was a fun encounter. The 'slinger in question, a male half-elf, established himself as a promiscuous womanizer right at the very start of our game, so I knew that I should except something special from him in the area dedicated to the sin of lust. He still managed to surprise me. He convinced the rest of the group to let him go and parley with the queen succubus on his own, and once there offered her his soul in exchange for her help in Runeforge. The accompanying ability score bonus from her Profane Gift might have tempted him too.

I honestly loved the gesture; it really fits his chaotic neutral, power hungry, path-of-least-resistance happy character. But I have to admit that I'm not sure where to go from here. Normally I would simply tell the player that his character's soul is well and truly doomed, that he deserves nothing less, and that it's time to make a new character.
But we're at the endgame, halfway through Xin-Shalast. This 'slinger has been with us since level 1. He's gone from killing goblins to finally being offed himself by a 40 ft. monstrosity with a sword three times bigger than he is. The player wants to see his character finish this campaign, and I share his sentiment.

So I'm adamant about bringing this 'slinger back, and not least because it just wouldn't make any sense for a new PC to join the party halfway up fantasy Mount Everest. My problem is that I'm not sure how. Hoping that some of you reading this see options here that I'm missing. Anyone here know of any official rules for reclaiming a soul now in the clutches of a fiend? That preferably won't necessitate trekking all the way back to Runeforge...

I'm not entirely lost though. I have a vague idea about using Delvahine's tenuous alliance with the wrath wing to bring this character back. The wrath guys could surely fashion him an all new body to inhabit in their creepy flesh lab. Not entirely sure why she would even want to do so, but it's certainly an option.
Thoughts? Suggestions?

[Dracovar]

A couple of ideas..

1) Sidequest! Free the gunslinger and off the succubus. Party should be sufficiently high level enough to make a side trip to the Abyss...

2) He just "shows up" again. No one rez'd him. He's just...back. He doesn't remember much, just that he got a "pass" because Delvahine wants him active on the Prime (for unknown reasons...heheh). This should trigger all sorts of paranoia and fun with the rest of the party. Of course, let the player be himself for the rest of the adventure, and right when they win it all...Delvahine takes control of him. Or not. Just have fun as DM with the potential for a double-cross of demonic proportions. Really, just the worry/threat that something isn't quite right with the newly returned gunslinger should provide lots of entertainment value.

3) Maybe post-return, post-AP the gunslinger heads off to become the newest, demon-inspired bad guy for the region...

[Arthur G]

Dracovar wrote:

Dracovar's kick-ass suggestions

Your first suggestions brings up a good point: where does the soul even go? The lore on daemons and souls is plenty detailed, and devils taking ownership of souls is classic, but what do demons do with souls? Delvahine herself is stuck in Runeforge but would the gunslinger simply be sent to the Abyss as a larvae? 'Cuz I kinda like the idea of the party looking through Xin-Shalast for a portal to the Abyss and a method of finding a specific larvae among millions... It's an ancient uber-magical city; why wouldn't there be, say, an interplanar observatory to help them along?

That said I also love the idea of my party turning a corner in the city and suddenly the guy's just there. That would, as you suspect, drive them nuts. As players they are extremely paranoid (as any good party should be). Delvahine wouldn't have let her pet go without implanting some sort of hardcore charm on him, of course. Just have to think about what the lady actually hopes to gain from this...

Thanks for the suggestions, man.

[MannyGoblin]

Make it a loose Worldwound connection. She doesn't want Mhar getting loose and doing a romp and stomp all over Golorian because the demons want to do the stomping. So send him back with perhaps a nudge towards a certain location.

[the Lorax]

How about as Dracovar's suggestion #2, above, but add in a couple of things(this is definately an option I would talk about with the player in private before doing):

- some number of negative levels which cant be healed, enough to make up for...

- replace his race with succubus, and alignment with CE

You're at the end of the campaign, unless you're planning on continuing afterwards, the balance issue shouldn't be a problem.

If you are, well then this option is less appealing.

[Arthur G]

MannyGoblin wrote:

Make it a loose Worldwound connection. She doesn't want Mhar getting loose and doing a romp and stomp all over Golorian because the demons want to do the stomping. So send him back with perhaps a nudge towards a certain location.

That would make sense, thanks! Although I'm not sure how I would justify her even knowing what the Leng guys are planning. The whole occlusion field is supposedly scrying proof, I think.

I'll think of something. Maybe she received some intel from a higher ranking demon. Maybe even a demon lord. Thanks, dude.

the Lorax wrote:

transformative stuff

Yup, would have to talk to my player before making such drastic changes to his character. Not sure he would dig being turned into a succubus. An incubus on the other hand...

I don't want this player to get too powerful though, even at this late stage. This player has utilized every dirty trick in the book(s) to optimize his gunslinger, except for double barreled firearms which I specifically banned. He clears 100+ points of damage in a full-round easily. If anything I want him to get slightly nerfed from this. Dumb decisions should have consequences and I think that he definitely should suffer some from this.

Maybe I'll go for the whole "warboys in the wrath wing flesh craft you a new body" angle and give him the fiendish template, but also one of those random ogrekin deformities to reflect that he comes back misshapen. Could have him roll for it too.

[Tacticslion]

Why not a bit of mix-n-match?

Incubus with more limited (fiendish template) benefits, ogrekin deformity, and loss of gunslinger levels equal to incubus hit dice? It's an interesting trade-off that definitely grants power, but dropping eight levels is pretty serious.

Or, make them, as suggested, negative levels instead of level loss. Technically leaves his character intact, but,

Quote:

For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense, saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels. If a creature's negative levels equal or exceed its total Hit Dice, it dies.

... which is quite a penalty.

That's going to be -8 to all attacks, checks, CM-stuff, saves, and skill checks; and a loss of 40 hit points.

Granted, an incubus is a pretty hardcore thing, and might more than make up for it... but there are a few things to note and think about:

First: their strength is high, but their dexterity less so. Gunslingers certainly have higher dexterity than an incubus does. If you do "replacement stats", that's going to be a real kicker; if you just modify stats, however, this will be nothing but gain. It's worth noting that, according to monster advancement, his base incubus stats (if you used those instead of the base character stats) would probably be modified from the incubus stats by +4/+4/+2/+2/+0/-2 (arranged as desired)... but you can choose to follow that, or not, as GM (also altered by level, as normal).

Second: you may well consider adding two to four more negative levels... a lingering "touch" of the queen, as it were, as a side-effect of death and 'resurrection'. This will drop the hit points and dice rolls a bit more.

Third: as a trade-off, you may require his spell-like abilities, whether at will or not, to cost one "grit" to use.

Fourth: the detrimental ogrekin deformities need not be as "obvious" as those listed. In addition, consider mana wasted, mutant, and oracle curses as well (only the base curse, not the benefits that go along with it). It's possible that whatever it is is, instead of a deformity, simply a mark or some sort of elaborate "soul-tattoo" like thing that simply marks all who see him (or maybe only those who claim him or know what to look for) as the property of the queen.

Fifth: dropping the DR, immunities, resistances, and SR with a fiendish template's resist (cold, fire) 15, SR 5+CR*, and DR 10/good weakens it a bit more.

Sixth: he likely has no treasure, despite the base incubus having stuff. Presumably, he's going to get his old stuff back.

Seventh: leave him "chaotic neutral" to divinations (but with strange, unreadable magic auras on him), have him found by the party, and leave his character with no recollection of what happened. It doesn't matter whether they discover he's an incubus, or whatever. He just... shows up. Perhaps already shape changed into himself...

Eighth: playing with negative levels even more, if you drop the incubus racial hit dice, apply the eight negative levels, and replace the defenses as noted, and add in a drawback, and I think you've made an interesting character. But that's just me.

* His CR is going to roughly be his lvl+9, I think, based on monster advancement rules; I'd calculate it as being lvl+5 myself, but that's just me.

[Dracovar]

Arthur G wrote:

Dracovar wrote:

Dracovar's kick-ass suggestions

Your first suggestions brings up a good point: where does the soul even go? The lore on daemons and souls is plenty detailed, and devils taking ownership of souls is classic, but what do demons do with souls? Delvahine herself is stuck in Runeforge but would the gunslinger simply be sent to the Abyss as a larvae? 'Cuz I kinda like the idea of the party looking through Xin-Shalast for a portal to the Abyss and a method of finding a specific larvae among millions... It's an ancient uber-magical city; why wouldn't there be, say, an interplanar observatory to help them along?

That said I also love the idea of my party turning a corner in the city and suddenly the guy's just there. That would, as you suspect, drive them nuts. As players they are extremely paranoid (as any good party should be). Delvahine wouldn't have let her pet go without implanting some sort of hardcore charm on him, of course. Just have to think about what the lady actually hopes to gain from this...

Thanks for the suggestions, man.

You're welcome! I take a perverse glee in doing stuff like Option 2.

[the Lorax]

I was thinking of enough negative levels to make up for the succubus' HD, and an additional 2, so Tacticslion's -8 is right in line with my thoughts. This should be a bit of a long term boon, but short term bit of a pinch.

I wouldn't let him get away with incubus - that would be too close to the type of character he was - I'd want a noticeable role playing penalty too.

You know your player, so you need to keep in mind what won't break the game for him.

[Arthur G]

Tacticslion wrote:

Tacticslion's wall of awesome

Dang, Tacticslion. You put some thought and time into that. Appreciate it, man.

I'm especially grateful for the insight on how to balance the player's potential buffs and nerfs, although the suggestions for other penalties to apply are great. I think I'm going to create a little table of select deformities, curses and the like, and then have the player roll maybe two of them himself. This guy loves random tables, so much so that I expect simply having the chance to roll for random effects is going to soften the blow for him.

Right, so for those curious this is what I'm thinking so far storywise: the 'slinger is damned to the Abyss and rightfully so. However, once there a demon lord intercedes on his behalf. Nocticula, being the ruler of succubi, knows about the affairs of Delvahine and has learned of the impending world-shattering threat of Mhar. How? I dunno, she's a demon lord; she has people.
Being a patron of assassins and a fan of subtlety she sees an opportunity here to send a mortal to unknowingly do her bidding: make sure that this one foolish adventurer reaches his destination, the Spires of Xin-Shalast, and once there stops the Leng Device. Delvahine is given a soul gem containing the unfortunate 'slinger and sets to work resurrecting the guy with the help of the wrath wing, all the while implanting some hefty charms in his head.
Some days later the 'slinger wakes up at the frozen gates of Xin-Shalast, not quite himself and with no memory of what brought him here. Except he feels a burning need to reach Karzoug's crib and do... something. Kill the bastard? Yeah, that's probably it. But no, there's something more... some purpose he has to fulfill. If only he could remember...
And for reasons he can't quite fathom he now speaks Abyssal.

Something along those lines.

Thanks for the back and forth, guys. Seriously, this has helped.

[Tacticslion]

Arthur G wrote:

Tacticslion wrote:

Tacticslion's wall of awesome

Dang, Tacticslion. You put some thought and time into that. Appreciate it, man.

I'm especially grateful for the insight on how to balance the player's potential buffs and nerfs, although the suggestions for other penalties to apply are great. I think I'm going to create a little table of select deformities, curses and the like, and then have the player roll maybe two of them himself. This guy loves random tables, so much so that I expect simply having the chance to roll for random effects is going to soften the blow for him.

Glad you liked it! :D

Arthur G wrote:

Right, so for those curious this is what I'm thinking so far storywise: the 'slinger is damned to the Abyss and rightfully so. However, once there a demon lord intercedes on his behalf. Nocticula, being the ruler of succubi, knows about the affairs of Delvahine and has learned of the impending world-shattering threat of Mhar. How? I dunno, she's a demon lord; she has people.

Being a patron of assassins and a fan of subtlety she sees an opportunity here to send a mortal to unknowingly do her bidding: make sure that this one foolish adventurer reaches his destination, the Spires of Xin-Shalast, and once there stops the Leng Device. Delvahine is given a soul gem containing the unfortunate 'slinger and sets to work resurrecting the guy with the help of the wrath wing, all the while implanting some hefty charms in his head.
Some days later the 'slinger wakes up at the frozen gates of Xin-Shalast, not quite himself and with no memory of what brought him here. Except he feels a burning need to reach Karzoug's crib and do... something. Kill the bastard? Yeah, that's probably it. But no, there's something more... some purpose he has to fulfill. If only he could remember...
And for reasons he can't quite fathom he now speaks Abyssal.

Something along those lines.

AWESOME! :D

Arthur G wrote:

Thanks for the back and forth, guys. Seriously, this has helped.

Glad to! :D

[Kalindlara]

the Lorax wrote:

How about as Dracovar's suggestion #2, above, but add in a couple of things(this is definately an option I would talk about with the player in private before doing):

- some number of negative levels which cant be healed, enough to make up for...

- replace his race with succubus, and alignment with CE

You're at the end of the campaign, unless you're planning on continuing afterwards, the balance issue shouldn't be a problem.

If you are, well then this option is less appealing.

Obviously, do whatever is best for your campaign, the story, and the player's comfort zone.

I 100% endorse the succubus transformation, though. 100% :3

[Turin the Mad]

Delhavine's profane gift grants her a permanent telepathic link to the gunslinger, so odds are she knows most of what the scaliwag has been up to since then. ;)