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Just something I have noticed that is starting to crop up, the favorite hang out of adventurers everywhere, the brothel is changing into the dancehall. Ultimate Campaign and Hell's Rebels(three legged devil) feature places where PCs can have a nice relaxing square dance after a delve. So are the Prophets of Kalistrade infiltrating areas and having people to the Polka instead of the Horizontal Mambo?
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I believe its a sudden shift so that 12 year old Pathfinder players don't go to their parents asking what brothel means. I just find it funny that Ultimate Campaign still lists "brothel" as a requirement for some buildings, yet renamed the brothel "dance hall", confusing anyone that is kingdom building.
As a grown adult, I just think of "dance halls" as brothels with a mosh pit / music entertainment added in. It makes sense since it seems the bards in groups I run are always first to request going to such places.
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As a father of 5 sons (3 of which love to play Pathfinder, with a 4th eagerly wanting to be old enough), I greatly appreciate the more family-friendly term. Don't need such "fantasies" in my role-playing, thank you.
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Yeah it's an extension of the bizarre "extensive violence is okay to fantasize about but OMG SEX OH NO DON'T TALK ABOUT THAT!!" dichotomy that exists in our culture.
Yep, the game where you can make corpse bombs, dissolve your foes in pits of acid, cook and eat intelligent beings for enhancement bonuses, and infect your enemies with the plague would be highly inappropriate if we acknowledged the existence of brothels.
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Seems silly when you have a god in the system who employs sacred protitutes, but whatever.
Makes you wonder if she would even exist if the game was made today.
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I get the feeling this is going to be a fun thread.
Commence popping of the corn!
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Seems silly when you have a god in the system who employs sacred protitutes, but whatever.Makes you wonder if she would even exist if the game was made today.
Which would be a shame, my cleric of Calistria was one of my favorite (and most popular) characters.
I get the feeling this is going to be a fun thread.
Commence popping of the corn!
One can only hope.
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Yes it will be a fun thread. My first comment that probably won't be popular is that I really don't understand people who play this game with their kids. This is the game that is best discovered in high school - at least - and played in your basement as something to do because no one usually invited your "nerd gang" to the cool parties. Meanwhile your dad upstairs makes embarrassing jabs at you - knowing full well 6 of your pals are there with you so he has a full audience - for wasting your summer playing that fairie game while you should be out trying to get a summer job.
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Yes it will be a fun thread. My first comment that probably won't be popular is that I really don't understand people who play this game with their kids. This is the game that is best discovered in high school - at least - and played in your basement as something to do because no one usually invited your "nerd gang" to the cool parties. Meanwhile your dad upstairs makes embarrassing jabs at you - knowing full well 6 of your pals are there with you so he has a full audience - for wasting your summer playing that fairie game while you should be out trying to get a summer job.
Eh, there's no wrong way to discover table top...unless, I suppose, you were kidnapped by a serial killer who forced you and other victims to play and actually killed you when your character died...but, failing that, people come to the game at all different times for all different reasons. I have friends who are gamers because their parents were, and there's nothing wrong with that.
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Isn't it like trying to be a drug pusher to your own kids? "Hey dude... take that booster of prepainted minis... don't tell your mom ok..."
"Thanks dad..."
"Joe! I heard that! You should be ashamed to try to pass him your commons! I saw you go through that brick last night and keeping all the rares to yourself!"
"Mom! There's a rare in there. Dad loves me!"
(Scene ends as mom vaults over table knocking dishes away to get to the rare mini...)
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Yes it will be a fun thread. My first comment that probably won't be popular is that I really don't understand people who play this game with their kids. This is the game that is best discovered in high school - at least - and played in your basement as something to do because no one usually invited your "nerd gang" to the cool parties. Meanwhile your dad upstairs makes embarrassing jabs at you - knowing full well 6 of your pals are there with you so he has a full audience - for wasting your summer playing that fairie game while you should be out trying to get a summer job.
To be fair i dont think there is an issue in playing RPGs with kids , i played a lot of make believe stuff when i was a kid.
In the end i do find annoying to see this kind of change happen , but it isnt something any GM cant fix in a couple of minutes.
*Facepalm* Well this escalated quickly.
Well I guess Calistria, today would be.. Vengeance,Trickery, and Knowledge as a goddess of lore. Such a bit like an Elven Norborger without the serial killer followers. Hunt down and keep knowledge(such as elven lore and don't share with non-elves) Kind of in Dragon Age where so much lore on the elven past has been lost, they would be all over the place trying to get more. Spying in noble libraries and combing ancient ruins for scraps of history.
And of course, they never forget the destruction of their past and intend payback in full. It will just take time.
Or literally just become the godess of "dance"...
Great now i will always think about the special kind of "dancing" if somenone says he will go to the dance hall.
And it is always funny that you can show someone get ripped apart but any sign of nudity will cause a scandal.
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Arshea for example takes the whole thing to a new level.
A lot of dancing there.
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Wait... a Brothel isn't a hotel for bros to hang out and party at?
Duuuude. :(
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*Facepalm* Well this escalated quickly.
*grins loudly*
Well I guess Calistria, today would be.. Vengeance,Trickery, and Knowledge as a goddess of lore. Such a bit like an Elven Norborger without the serial killer followers. Hunt down and keep knowledge(such as elven lore and don't share with non-elves) Kind of in Dragon Age where so much lore on the elven past has been lost, they would be all over the place trying to get more. Spying in noble libraries and combing ancient ruins for scraps of history.
And of course, they never forget the destruction of their past and intend payback in full. It will just take time.
And Shelyn would be the goddess of side-hugging.
And even with kids: Brothels are thing that exists? I mean, even without the internet, if I take the train from Cologne to my former apartment, I would ride along one of the biggest brothels in Germany. And no, it doesn't hide itself. It even advertises, especially to trade fair (or soccer world cup) visitors. And the kids see that, so a brothel is not that mysterious. :D
Well, yeah, of course they don't hide themselves, they're legal in Germany.
Biggest brothel? Are you talking about Pascha? One of my co-workers had her birthday party there at the strip club portion and was SUPER pissed they wouldn't let her upstairs.
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No one said the 'dance hall' involved the patrons dancing, and there's nothing stating there aren't polished brass poles present.
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What does an abstinence-only, ultra-violent culture breed?
Hrm.
I would say that by age ten or so, published content should be okay. If you think your kids don't know about sex by then, you should sit them down and EDUCATE them.
my two cents.
Interestingly enough, in our all adult group, brothels NEVER get mentioned, we all have a bunch of (apparently) asexual characters, it's kinda funny actually...
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Yeah it's an extension of the bizarre "extensive violence is okay to fantasize about but OMG SEX OH NO DON'T TALK ABOUT THAT!!" dichotomy that exists in our culture.
American culture.
The rest of the west isnt that uptight.
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American culture.The rest of the west isnt that uptight.
Pretty much all of North America. Just not the US imo. It's okay to show violence as soon as the word sex is mentioned it's like "OMG you said sex". The whole fake innocence thing gets on my nerves. Hypocrisy in action. Mind you people take offence way too easily today. Resident evil 5 was said to be racist because the main character is white and his enemies were black. I don't know about anyone else but if in a video game a zombie plague breaks out in Africa. I'm expecting the enemies I have to defeat to be black. As they tend to outnumber other racial groups in that part of the world.
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It's my job to make the game age-appropriate for the table, not the publisher. Any child capable of reading Ultimate Campaign thoroughly enough to come and ask the question 'what's a brothel' is almost certainly old enough for the answer.
I don't see the change as necessary, although I do respect Paizo's right to make that choice.
No one said the 'dance hall' involved the patrons dancing, and there's nothing stating there aren't polished brass poles present.
I was just thinking the same thing.
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Yes it will be a fun thread. My first comment that probably won't be popular is that I really don't understand people who play this game with their kids. This is the game that is best discovered in high school - at least - and played in your basement as something to do because no one usually invited your "nerd gang" to the cool parties. Meanwhile your dad upstairs makes embarrassing jabs at you - knowing full well 6 of your pals are there with you so he has a full audience - for wasting your summer playing that fairie game while you should be out trying to get a summer job.To be fair i dont think there is an issue in playing RPGs with kids , i played a lot of make believe stuff when i was a kid.
In the end i do find annoying to see this kind of change happen , but it isnt something any GM cant fix in a couple of minutes.
PDK, really?! One of the joys of being a parent is playing WITH your children. Find something you have in common and share it with them. It builds so much trust. Families that have fun together, stay together.
Nope, no issues with introducing children to RPGs. How would Paizo have customers in the future otherwise? You're welcome, Paizo.
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As a married man, I appreciate the change.
"Where you going dear?"
"The Dancehall"
"Well pick up some milk on the way home"
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Reminds me of the old "Pirates & Plunder" game. It said " Immediately after reaching a port after a hard tour of sea duty most sailors will make a bee-line for the nearest Lady to engage in polite social conversation over a cup of tea and a plate of crumpets..."
Then there was a chart for all the factors that affected hiring the services of a professional conversationalist, including 'extremely exotic topic of conversation' and 'extra helping of tea and crumpets' as well as 'tea only, no crumpets'.
In one of the early Tropico computer games, I noticed that your clergy tended to hang out at the Carabet when not attending to duties at the cathedral or sleeping.
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The "brothels are now dance halls" thing annoyed me too, but I don't ascribe this to general prudery on Paizo's part. As others have noted, that doesn't really match the company's attitude insofar as we've seen it displayed in other products.
Rather than being against any sort of overt portrayal of sexuality, I think that Paizo changed brothels into dance halls because they decided that brothels portrayed the "wrong kind of message" about sexuality - that is, I think that there was a decision made that "prostitution is about the violent subjugation of women, and having brothels could be seen as an implicit endorsement of that" and that was the reason for the change.
At least, that seems more in line with the company's recent actions, such as changing Erastil from "good-aligned god of traditional values" to "good-aligned god of families, regardless of their makeup," and Asmodeus from "God of Hell" to "God of Hell and The Patriarchy."
I don't think that is the thing either, otherwise they would have completely done away with even mentions of brothels/dance halls, versus substitution of dance hall as code for brothel.
I think rather its more that as Paizo has grown in size and influence within the RPG market, they want to avoid material that given them negative publicity. Sex in games is a bit of a different subject than say, LGBTQ rights. We have reached the tipping point in our culture on IMHO on the latter where you can feature those folks in a product without worrying about too much negative press and controversy, and what you do hear about you can sort of easily and safely dismiss. When it comes to sex however, especially in a medium that can be interpreted as "kid" friendly, a lot of people still freak out. Smaller companies can get away from that because they have less visibility and are seldom encountered outside of game shops, unlike Pathfinder.
And Asmodeus being a misogynist isn't a new perspective. It was presented in the very first Book of the Damned, which I think may have even been 3.5.
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It's not the only 'revision' like this.
Elves of Golarion has the Calistrian Prostitute trait.
You worked in one of Calistria’s temples as a sacred prostitute, and you know how to flatter, please, and (most of all) listen. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks.
Ultimate Campaign has the Calistrian Courtesan trait.
You worked in one of Calistria’s temples as a sacred courtesan, and you know how to flatter, please, and (most of all) listen. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Sense Motive checks and Diplomacy checks to gather information, and one of these skills (your choice) is always a class skill for you.
Same trait - 'revised' nomenclature. Admittedly, I like the Courtesan naming better - seems more theme appropriate - and it IS mechanically better as well.
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Honestly it's not even an "American" thing, most people in our culture don't give a crap... but just because of the vocal minorities and sub-cultures the rest of us keep it PCPretty much all of North America. Just not the US imo. It's okay to show violence as soon as the word sex is mentioned it's like "OMG you said sex". The whole fake innocence thing gets on my nerves. Hypocrisy in action. Mind you people take offence way too easily today. Resident evil 5 was said to be racist because the main character is white and his enemies were black. I don't know about anyone else but if in a video game a zombie plague breaks out in Africa. I'm expecting the enemies I have to defeat to be black. As they tend to outnumber other racial groups in that part of the world.
American culture.The rest of the west isnt that uptight.
It's totally an American thing. Otherwise we'd be more like other countries where it's easier to get nudity on TV than violence. It's specifically because "the rest of us keep it PC" that makes it part of our culture.
It's totally an American thing. Otherwise we'd be more like other countries where it's easier to get nudity on TV than violence. It's specifically because "the rest of us keep it PC" that makes it part of our culture.Honestly it's not even an "American" thing, most people in our culture don't give a crap... but just because of the vocal minorities and sub-cultures the rest of us keep it PCPretty much all of North America. Just not the US imo. It's okay to show violence as soon as the word sex is mentioned it's like "OMG you said sex". The whole fake innocence thing gets on my nerves. Hypocrisy in action. Mind you people take offence way too easily today. Resident evil 5 was said to be racist because the main character is white and his enemies were black. I don't know about anyone else but if in a video game a zombie plague breaks out in Africa. I'm expecting the enemies I have to defeat to be black. As they tend to outnumber other racial groups in that part of the world.
American culture.The rest of the west isnt that uptight.
As a Canadian, I would argue that it's not just America.
We like violence a LITTLE less, but are arguably just as sexually repressed.
Seeing as most of us live within walking distance of the States, it kinda makes sense that we would be similar. :D
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There's also a divide between what's in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game line and what's in the world setting: the former is designed to appeal to a wider audience (including kids) than the world setting.
Creative Director
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For what it's worth, the inclusion of the dance hall in the Kintargo gazetteer was an attempt to actually define, in print, what such an establishment is: a "combination brothel, musical venue, and tavern." It's not one of the three specialized in one service, it's a combination of all three of them As Liz points out, we do have a difference between the setting material and the rules hardcovers—with the setting material we tend to go more "mature" in content.
The reason that there are dance halls at all in the game IS INDEED because of a society thing. We had some pretty vocal complaints about including the Calistrian Prostitute in the Advanced Player's Guide, which had already appeared more or less in print in less widely-circulated softecover books as a concept, and as a result of customer feedback the rulebooks shifted to using "dance hall" in place of "brothel" and so on.
It is what it is. I'm annoyed by America's weird disconnect between fear of sex and love of violence as well.
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Thanks for the response James.
One of the ways Paizo has impressed me is that they haven't been afraid to present equality in sexuality (LGBT characters, etc.) regardless of how presenting people as equals might step on the toes of bigotry.
It would be a great travesty if this choice to avoid presenting sexuality in plain sight was first step in retracting from that stance into a safe conservative shell.
Please don't let that be the case. (I don't think you will!) :D
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Yes it will be a fun thread. My first comment that probably won't be popular is that I really don't understand people who play this game with their kids. This is the game that is best discovered in high school - at least - and played in your basement as something to do because no one usually invited your "nerd gang" to the cool parties. Meanwhile your dad upstairs makes embarrassing jabs at you - knowing full well 6 of your pals are there with you so he has a full audience - for wasting your summer playing that fairie game while you should be out trying to get a summer job.To be fair i dont think there is an issue in playing RPGs with kids , i played a lot of make believe stuff when i was a kid.
In the end i do find annoying to see this kind of change happen , but it isnt something any GM cant fix in a couple of minutes.
PDK, really?! One of the joys of being a parent is playing WITH your children. Find something you have in common and share it with them. It builds so much trust. Families that have fun together, stay together.
Nope, no issues with introducing children to RPGs. How would Paizo have customers in the future otherwise? You're welcome, Paizo.
Hey, your choice, but don't try to bring me to the Dark Side! LOL
My wife has always refused to get involved with this game, and at first I was kinda sad, but many, MANY years later I am thankful that I have a reason to get out of the house and socialize at least once a week! (otherwise I'd probably have reverted to a series of grunts and snorts, by now...)
LOL
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As a Canadian, I would argue that it's not just America.
We like violence a LITTLE less, but are arguably just as sexually repressed.
Seeing as most of us live within walking distance of the States, it kinda makes sense that we would be similar. :D
I think it's a white anglo-saxon thing then, because the French speaking parts of Canada have good stuff on TV past midnight... ahem... dance contests and all...
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The renaming of brothels is nothing new.
I can live with the RPG line being more PG than the world setting. It would truly be a shame if Golarion suffered the same fate as Waterdeep.
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In my group's capital city it's known as "the dancehall" complete with air quotes.
I think it's a white anglo-saxon thing then, because the French speaking parts of Canada have good stuff on TV past midnight... ahem... dance contests and all...As a Canadian, I would argue that it's not just America.
We like violence a LITTLE less, but are arguably just as sexually repressed.
Seeing as most of us live within walking distance of the States, it kinda makes sense that we would be similar. :D
I wasn't counting Quebec, as they themselves don't want to be Canadian.
Source: born there, father is raving separatist loony.
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I wasn't counting Quebec, as they themselves don't want to be Canadian.
Source: born there, father is raving separatist loony.
Things have changed since you were born! the majority of the Province considers themselves Canadians first, regardless of what Harper decides to call it these days ('distinct nation' or somesuch blurred nonsense). The idea of separation actually scares away voters now, so those who still cling to the idea and run in politics pretty much never speak about it.
Maybe we're unto something though, maybe the Province is moving dangerously close to the Anglo-Saxon culture, because in recent years of visiting La Belle Province, I now find their regular post midnight programming very diluted compared to the made from concentrate wholeness I remember from my youth there... :P
I wasn't counting Quebec, as they themselves don't want to be Canadian.
Source: born there, father is raving separatist loony.
Things have changed since you were born! the majority of the Province considers themselves Canadians first, regardless of what Harper decides to call it these days ('distinct nation' or somesuch blurred nonsense). The idea of separation actually scares away voters now, so those who still cling to the idea and run in politics pretty much never speak about it.
Maybe we're unto something though, maybe the Province is moving dangerously close to the Anglo-Saxon culture, because in recent years of visiting La Belle Province, I now find their regular post midnight programming very diluted compared to the made from concentrate wholeness I remember from my youth there... :P
Yes things have changed, arguably for the worse (depending on criteria)... ;)