Kineticist Burn: Never Sleeping


Rules Questions

Silver Crusade

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Let's say I play a race that never sleeps and playing a kineticist with burn. If I never sleep, I keep the burn, then my bonuses become permanent, like the size bonuses of elemental overflow. Is there something I missed?

Paizo Employee Designer

If you intentionally never rest to recover burn, then you do keep all benefits that last until then, like overflow, but, on the flip side, you don't recover burn.


yeah. you missed the fact that you cant use a lot of cool abilities cuz your burn for them will keep adding up till you're unconscious. Enjoy.

Silver Crusade

I'm okay with not reducing burn if it means the size bonus to my Con affects my hp. Every now and again, I can take a day off to reset my burn back to useful minimum (elemental overflow).

All I can find is to make a DC 15 Fort or penalties. At the level when I have size bonuses, I am rarely going to fail that.

Weables wrote:
yeah. you missed the fact that you cant use a lot of cool abilities cuz your burn for them will keep adding up till you're unconscious. Enjoy.

I don't think I reburn myself daily to regain the benefits if the burn is never removed.


Weables wrote:
yeah. you missed the fact that you cant use a lot of cool abilities cuz your burn for them will keep adding up till you're unconscious. Enjoy.

Admittedly, looking at the overwhelming soul, I found it is technically possible to get around without spending burn- between gather power and infusion specialization, you can do fairly well for yourself. By level 19, you can throw empowered composite blasts with 6 burn worth of infusion around at will.

Not that I don't agree completely here. You are ripping out options and class features if you don't clear up your burn. I think there are more productive ways to do this other than never sleeping.

I like playing a geo that just pumps some burn into his DR. Nice, simple, and always useful (even if the GM throws a bunch of enemies with weapons that cut through your DR....well.... the party is getting a ton of adamantine weapons as loot. Even at higher levels, those are a decent enough chunk of cash that you might as well nab them)

Doing that, I could be running around at level 6 with DR 6, and I would get a +3 to attack and +5 to damage (due both to the overflow bonus to the blast directly, and the size bonuses to my stats). And I have the same amount of health to play with as if I had only 2 burn (which basically puts me at the same health as a con 14 character). I think this is fairly decent. Maybe throw on another 2 burn at level 11 to get some more size bonuses.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Resting is not the same thing as sleeping. A creature that does not sleep can still take a break and rest, say, after a long march for example. Since kineticist only requires "a full night's rest" and not sleep, you're totally fine and can still remove your burn as normal.

Silver Crusade

I'll try out the whole not-resting thing and see how it goes. I like lighting-based aero.


Of course, even if you do sleep, you could just throw a few powered up blasts and build up Burn in the morning, or sink them into defenses, or wild talents, or whatever.

So sure.


lemeres wrote:
Weables wrote:
yeah. you missed the fact that you cant use a lot of cool abilities cuz your burn for them will keep adding up till you're unconscious. Enjoy.

Admittedly, looking at the overwhelming soul, I found it is technically possible to get around without spending burn- between gather power and infusion specialization, you can do fairly well for yourself. By level 19, you can throw empowered composite blasts with 6 burn worth of infusion around at will.

Not that I don't agree completely here. You are ripping out options and class features if you don't clear up your burn. I think there are more productive ways to do this other than never sleeping.

I like playing a geo that just pumps some burn into his DR. Nice, simple, and always useful (even if the GM throws a bunch of enemies with weapons that cut through your DR....well.... the party is getting a ton of adamantine weapons as loot. Even at higher levels, those are a decent enough chunk of cash that you might as well nab them)

Doing that, I could be running around at level 6 with DR 6, and I would get a +3 to attack and +5 to damage (due both to the overflow bonus to the blast directly, and the size bonuses to my stats). And I have the same amount of health to play with as if I had only 2 burn (which basically puts me at the same health as a con 14 character). I think this is fairly decent. Maybe throw on another 2 burn at level 11 to get some more size bonuses.

I think what he's saying here is that if you're going to burn 8 into your DR every morning, you can just trade off nova ing a few times a day to make those bonuses count as permanent. Now you have a permanent +6 to con, for +3hp/hd forever. I can honestly say I'd do this for certain builds, especially aether. I now don't get to nova attack at all, but have a massive hp pool compared to most kineticists, a lot of passive damage/acc buffs, a boost to fort and reflex saves, regenerating temp hp with a rider blocker built in, and since I actually get benefits for *not* sleeping, everyone else can sleep while I take watch and keep myself awake doing pushups.


Shiroi wrote:
I think what he's saying here is that if you're going to burn 8 into your DR every morning, you can just trade off nova ing a few times a day to make those bonuses count as permanent. Now you have a permanent +6 to con, for +3hp/hd forever. I can honestly say I'd do this for certain builds, especially aether. I now don't get to nova attack at all, but have a massive hp pool compared to most kineticists, a lot of passive damage/acc buffs, a boost to fort and reflex saves, regenerating temp hp with a rider blocker built in, and since I...

....you are forgetting the cost of that +6 con- -8hp/hd, or -5 hp/hd when you look at the net result. Remember, you take 1 nonlethal damage/hd per burn, and that nonlethal adds together with lethal for determining when you pass out.

The bonuses that can be put into con just makes the burn less painful. It just makes it so that you bleed out slower.

What you really get is +6 to attack (limited due to the max overflow; I am not sure why you would want 8 burn since the last bonus turns on at 7), +12 to damage, and then you get stat bonuses that could be a +2-+3 to attack and +2-+3 to damage/DCs on your blasts. That is great!

Again, +3 to attack and +5 to damage at level 6, all for using burn...in such as way that it could give me an extra +3 DR.


the size bonus to con gives you extra HP the moment you get them, and if you lose the size bonus, even if the size bonus counted as "permanent" you still lose it, and the HP it gives, if you eventually rested. The only benefit permanent does it let it give you extra rounds of rage.


lemeres wrote:
Shiroi wrote:
I think what he's saying here is that if you're going to burn 8 into your DR every morning, you can just trade off nova ing a few times a day to make those bonuses count as permanent. Now you have a permanent +6 to con, for +3hp/hd forever. I can honestly say I'd do this for certain builds, especially aether. I now don't get to nova attack at all, but have a massive hp pool compared to most kineticists, a lot of passive damage/acc buffs, a boost to fort and reflex saves, regenerating temp hp with a rider blocker built in, and since I...

....you are forgetting the cost of that +6 con- -8hp/hd, or -5 hp/hd when you look at the net result. Remember, you take 1 nonlethal damage/hd per burn, and that nonlethal adds together with lethal for determining when you pass out.

The bonuses that can be put into con just makes the burn less painful. It just makes it so that you bleed out slower.

What you really get is +6 to attack (limited due to the max overflow; I am not sure why you would want 8 burn since the last bonus turns on at 7), +12 to damage, and then you get stat bonuses that could be a +2-+3 to attack and +2-+3 to damage/DCs on your blasts. That is great!

Again, +3 to attack and +5 to damage at level 6, all for using burn...in such as way that it could give me an extra +3 DR.

I hadn't been calculating the con bonus to hp for some reason. That'll help tremendously on my build.

In the meantime, he still gets that DR the same as you do. Or that temp hp. Or ac. Or miss chance or flame shield. And keeps it, until he rests and removes burn. Which is theoretically 8 hours a day more than you keep it. And it gives him plenty of time for crafting at night. Maybe it gives him no legitimate *bonuses* for making them permanent this way, but it does give him all night to do whatever, so he can be the party crafter and lookout all the time. Adding 8 hours to your day is not a bad bonus. If he planned to max his burn on his defenses every single morning anyway, I can see a reason to skip the rinse and repeat motion. He does lose the hp regen overnight, but I've seen worse trades for extra crafting time.

Silver Crusade

The plan was instead of taking overwhelming soul to not burn, I'm just going to not burn and keep the benefits that overwhelming soul gives up. If I end up needing to burn, I can take a day off and reset myself.

I wasn't aware that temp bonus to Con boosted hp. I thought it was a special case for barbarians. So, what is the actual difference between temp and permanent?


zanbato13 wrote:

The plan was instead of taking overwhelming soul to not burn, I'm just going to not burn and keep the benefits that overwhelming soul gives up. If I end up needing to burn, I can take a day off and reset myself.

I wasn't aware that temp bonus to Con boosted hp. I thought it was a special case for barbarians. So, what is the actual difference between temp and permanent?

the difference is determining how many rounds of rage or how many spells per day you can cast. things that have a daily limit have to have permanent bonuses to modify that daily amount.


zanbato13 wrote:

The plan was instead of taking overwhelming soul to not burn, I'm just going to not burn and keep the benefits that overwhelming soul gives up. If I end up needing to burn, I can take a day off and reset myself.

I wasn't aware that temp bonus to Con boosted hp. I thought it was a special case for barbarians. So, what is the actual difference between temp and permanent?

For the most part? You keep teh total amount of damage you took after the temp con is gone.

Thus the danger of barbarians that would drive themselves into negative hit points once their rage ends (+4 con [+2]x 20hd= 40 hp, more like 80 due to scaling rage bonuses...imagine if they are at 10 hp). Which can make superstition a bit scary since they would HAVE to save against healing spells cast on them. You can also find problems if you use that con enhancement spell.

But that isn't really a problem for kineticists, for the most part. You need a certain amount of burn to get the temp con bonus, which partitions a part of your hp into nonlethal damage. So you can't really willingly go to sleep with enough damage to kill you. I can't guarantee the exact math, but it is pretty much safe (especially since the nonlethal damage is removed at the same time as your temp con from overflow)

Silver Crusade

The advantage of not resting for a Kineticist is... Being able to burn more per day.
I could see doing this as prep for a big single battle.


zanbato13 wrote:

The advantage of not resting for a Kineticist is... Being able to burn more per day.

I could see doing this as prep for a big single battle.

Not sure what you mean here, since it wouldn't let you use more at all. You can only use x burn per day, and you can only take y burn without passing out. Those numbers are close together for the most part. I can maybe see what you mean with a ring, take a one hour power nap before the fight? But if I get a one hour telegraphed window before a boss fight from my dm doing more important things than sleeping. Like running, because that sounds scary as all get out. Not sleeping resets your right to take burn... but you have what, 3-4 more burn worth of hp to use for it?


Shiroi wrote:
zanbato13 wrote:

The advantage of not resting for a Kineticist is... Being able to burn more per day.

I could see doing this as prep for a big single battle.
Not sure what you mean here, since it wouldn't let you use more at all. You can only use x burn per day, and you can only take y burn without passing out. Those numbers are close together for the most part. I can maybe see what you mean with a ring, take a one hour power nap before the fight? But if I get a one hour telegraphed window before a boss fight from my dm doing more important things than sleeping. Like running, because that sounds scary as all get out. Not sleeping resets your right to take burn... but you have what, 3-4 more burn worth of hp to use for it?

I think he means it this way:

You can use burn con+3 times.
It gives you +1con at lvl 6, but this being temporary it doesn't affect the #times you can burn/day

Let's say you have +4 con. You can burn 7 times, going at -3 con.
Usually, you burn 3 times for defence/overflow.
This means you have 4 burn available for fights
If you already have burn, and not rested, let's say the standard 3 for defence/overflow, next day you can burn another 8 times (your con size is now permanent)

So you can burn 8 times in a fight now

Ofc this means 11*lvl temporary damage. With toughness and fcb hp, and the starting +5 con (due to size) this gives you 11.5hp/lvl. So you are left at 0.5hp/lvl. Enjoy :D


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I thought game designers had basically started saying to ignore the whole temporary/permanent bonus mess altogether.


shroudb wrote:
Shiroi wrote:
zanbato13 wrote:

The advantage of not resting for a Kineticist is... Being able to burn more per day.

I could see doing this as prep for a big single battle.
Not sure what you mean here, since it wouldn't let you use more at all. You can only use x burn per day, and you can only take y burn without passing out. Those numbers are close together for the most part. I can maybe see what you mean with a ring, take a one hour power nap before the fight? But if I get a one hour telegraphed window before a boss fight from my dm doing more important things than sleeping. Like running, because that sounds scary as all get out. Not sleeping resets your right to take burn... but you have what, 3-4 more burn worth of hp to use for it?

I think he means it this way:

You can use burn con+3 times.
It gives you +1con at lvl 6, but this being temporary it doesn't affect the #times you can burn/day

Let's say you have +4 con. You can burn 7 times, going at -3 con.
Usually, you burn 3 times for defence/overflow.
This means you have 4 burn available for fights
If you already have burn, and not rested, let's say the standard 3 for defence/overflow, next day you can burn another 8 times (your con size is now permanent)

So you can burn 8 times in a fight now

Ofc this means 11*lvl temporary damage. With toughness and fcb hp, and the starting +5 con (due to size) this gives you 11.5hp/lvl. So you are left at 0.5hp/lvl. Enjoy :D

You actually have some incorrect statements. Kineticists don't have any limit of how much burn they can take per day. the actual line is

"A kineticist can't choose to accept burn if it would put her total number of points of burn higher than 3 + her Constitution modifier"
So this means that a temp bonus totally counts as that's your current con mod, and that you can never accept burn if you'd go higher than that, though your burn can go higher if forced to take burn. So if you didn't rest you have the same limit as if you rested and reapplied the burn, since the temp con raised your con mod and that's the only thing that matters when allowing you to accept burn or not.


Ravingdork wrote:
I thought game designers had basically started saying to ignore the whole temporary/permanent bonus mess altogether.

The only thing it matters for are things limited per day based on an ability score. Like bardic performance and charisma. Barbs rage and con. Wizards spells per day and int. Things such as these only use "permanent" bonuses. But for things like the kineticist which says you can't accept more burn than 3+con a temp con raises the limit of the burn you can accept during the temp bonus to con.


Are you sure?

Look at this FAQ:

Temporary Ability Score Increases vs. Permanent Ability Score Increases: Why do temporary bonuses only apply to some things? wrote:


Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.

The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.

For example, most of the time when you get bull's strength, you're using it for combat, so the glossary mentions Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, Strength-based weapon damage rolls, CMB, and CMD. It doesn't call out melee attack rolls that use Dex instead of Str (such as when using Weapon Finesse) or situations where your applied Str bonus should be halved or multiplied (such as whith off-hand or two-handed weapons). You're usually not using the spell for a 1 min./level increase in your carrying capacity, so that isn't mentioned there, but the bonus should still apply to that, as well as to Strength checks to break down doors.

Think of it in the same way that a simple template has "quick rules" and "rebuild rules;" they're supposed to create monsters which are roughly equivalent in terms of stats, but the quick rules are a short cut that misses some details compared to using the rebuild rules. Likewise, the temporary ability score rule is intended as a short cut to speed up gameplay, not as the most precise way of applying the bonus.

A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.


Actually, the more applicable rule would be this one:

Constitution
"Temporary Bonuses: Temporary increases to your Constitution score give you a bonus on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this bonus and add that amount to your current and total hit points. When the bonus ends, remove this total from your current and total hit points."

According to this rule, any modifier to Constitution which lasts less than 24 hours, do not give bonuses to how much Burn you can take. RAW, you do not get to add your Elemental Overflow to your number of Burn unless you keep it for 24 hours... hence the thread... the only way Con boost gives you more burn is if you don't sleep.


Sphynx wrote:

Actually, the more applicable rule would be this one:

Constitution
"Temporary Bonuses: Temporary increases to your Constitution score give you a bonus on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this bonus and add that amount to your current and total hit points. When the bonus ends, remove this total from your current and total hit points."

According to this rule, any modifier to Constitution which lasts less than 24 hours, do not give bonuses to how much Burn you can take. RAW, you do not get to add your Elemental Overflow to your number of Burn unless you keep it for 24 hours... hence the thread... the only way Con boost gives you more burn is if you don't sleep.

Burn doesn't have a daily limit, it has a hard limit. If my con is +4 because of a temp ability then I can accept 3+4 burn during it. When the temp con goes away the max burn I can accept is 3+3.

IF burn was a daily limit, like rage, then you're correct that a temp boost wouldn't change it. But it's not a daily limit.

And sleeping and refreshing your burn or staying awake has the same limit. Since you have a hard cap and not a daily limit.


Where are you reading a rule that Con +4 grants you Burn?

RAW states that if a Boost to a Stat does not last at least 24 hours, it is a "temporary" stat boost. A Temporary stat boost has its own rules which say what it can boost, as opposed to what a permanent stat boost can do.

Daily limits on Burn have absolutely nothing to do with this rule unless you find me a source that confirms this.


There is no daily limit of burn. WHY do you keep thinking there's a daily limit of burn?

And somebody linked and quoted the FAQ that says that temp boosts are the same as permanent except for daily limits.
A temp con boost boosts your con while active. So while active your con is higher, thus you can take more burn. Since the burn rule is that you can't accept burn if you have burn equal to 3+con mod. If your con mod is higher your cap is higher.


Nobody is saying anything about daily limit of burn, except you boss.

What is being said (now repeatedly) is that Elemental Overflow does not give you more burn due to the Con boost. Con boost only gives you extra burn if it lasts more than 24 hours.

The FAQ I saw posted didn't say anything about daily limits. It said: "A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does." I don't know why you keep mentioning daily anything...


why do you think a con boost only give extra burn if you have it for 24 hours?

temp affect the same stats as permanent.
temp con is affecting con the same as permanent.
the limit of how much burn you can accept is 3+con mod.
This isn't a daily limit, daily limits are things that need permanent scores, things that aren't daily just look at your current modifier.
Which as shown above a temp con boost boosts your con just like a permanent con boost would.
a kineticist can have 2xcon or more of burn. There is no limit to how much burn a kineticist can have.
the limit is if they can choose to give themselves more burn.
if they already have 3+con of burn then they can't chose to give themselves more.
but if their con goes up then they no longer have 3+con but 2+con if their con mod increase by 1.
thus can could then accept more burn.


I agree, you just keep confusing me by throwing in that "daily" stuff, which I have no idea what you're referring to...

I agree, with the FAQ posted, your Burn increases with any Con boost (whether temporary or permanent). I was wrong on that, somehow I kept reading it that "if it boosts Temp something, then it also boosts Perm something". I just don't know why you keep mentioning that you exclude daily stuff... :/ Nobody said anything about daily, including in that faq (not that it matters for this thread, we don't get daily stuff).


Daily limit stuff is like:
Bardic performance rounds per day
Channel energy times per day
Rage rounds per day
Spell slots per day
Lay on hands per day
All of these are only modified by permanent ability score bonuses.

You saying that the con needed to be permanent to raise the burn cap meant that the burn cap was similar to the above, where you could do it X times per day, thus you were effectively saying that burn was a daily resource.

Now this doesn't matter since you and I agree how burn works. But I was clarifying why I was using "daily"


But where are you getting this daily only affected by permanent stat rule? I can't find it anywhere.

And no, I wasn't saying that Burn was a daily resource. I would never say something like that. I said that you need 24 hours to make a stat permanent.


Temporary increases to Constitution, such as those gained from rage and spells like bear's endurance, do not increase the total number of rounds that a barbarian can rage per day.


Ok, but where is this coming from? I've been through the FAQ and don't see it, and even if it was there, does it actually say that it only applies to daily powers, or are you just interpreting it onto daily powers?

Not saying you're right or wrong, have just been asking over and over, where this is coming from. A source...

Btw, I realize where the barbarian rules come from, I am asking where the daily rule comes from. You cant really infer a rule from others... So I assume your finitive statement is in reference to an actual rule about ability bonuses with daily powers...


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I'm confused. Per the FAQ, there is literally no difference between temporary bonuses and permanent bonuses anymore.

Where are people getting this "needs to apply for 24 hours" business? That's outdated information.


Yeah, we're past that Dork. :P It just takes know the FAQ to know these things now.

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