Non-book Spellbooks


Rules Questions

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If you're so adamant about not deviating from the rules in a rules forum, can you at least stop spreading inccorect rules?

Twice now you've been given examples of where spellbooks can be more or less than 100 pages, and you continue to spread this misinformation that the rules say a spellbook must be exactly 100 pages.

Travelers Spelbooks can be 50 pages. Compact Spelbooks are 70 pages. A Blessed spellbook is 1000 pages. The Mastery of Word and Thought spellbook is "the size of four normal spellbooks," so 400 pages.

It doesn't have to be 100. Per the rules.


bookrat wrote:

If you're so adamant about not deviating from the rules in a rules forum, can you at least stop spread inccorect rules?

Twice now you've been given examples of where spellbooks can be more or less than 100 pages, and you continue to spread this misinformation that the rules say a spellbook must be exactly 100 pages.

I'm not spreading misinformation. I have stated that the wizard's section on spellbooks says that a standard spellbook has 100 pages. I have also stated there may be other specific items that override this rule. I believe that covers those other examples you've given.


el cuervo wrote:
bookrat wrote:

If you're so adamant about not deviating from the rules in a rules forum, can you at least stop spread inccorect rules?

Twice now you've been given examples of where spellbooks can be more or less than 100 pages, and you continue to spread this misinformation that the rules say a spellbook must be exactly 100 pages.

I'm not spreading misinformation. I have stated that the wizard's section on spellbooks says that a standard spellbook has 100 pages. I have also stated there may be other specific items that override this rule. I believe that covers those other examples you've given.

No, it doesn't.

Here's the PRD on spellbooks in the wizard class:

PRD wrote:

Spellbooks: A wizard must study his spellbook each day to prepare his spells. He cannot prepare any spell not recorded in his spellbook, except for read magic, which all wizards can prepare from memory.

A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from his prohibited schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) plus three 1st-level spells of his choice. The wizard also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the spellbook. At each new wizard level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new wizard level) for his spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards' spellbooks to his own (see Magic).

And here's the PFSRD:

PFSRD wrote:

Spellbooks: A wizard must study his spellbook each day to prepare his spells. He cannot prepare any spell not recorded in his spellbook, except for read magic, which all wizards can prepare from memory.

A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from his opposed schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) plus three 1st-level spells of his choice. The wizard also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the spellbook.

Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook:

Wizards can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods. A wizard can only learn new spells that belong to the wizard spell lists (see Magic).

Spells Gained at a New Level:

Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, he gains two spells of his choice to add to his spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels he can cast.

Spells Copied from Another Spellbook or Scroll:

A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook. No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings). Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his specialty.

No where in the spellbook section under the wizard does it say the spellbook is 100 pages.

Shadow Lodge

So Mechanically speaking there is no strict definition of Book or Page beyond, only how many pages a book has, and how many spells fit on those pages. if the player pays the cost of a spellbook for his spell staff and inscribes no more spells than allowed for a spellbook the only mechanical problem faced is that a staff can be used for something other than studying spells. you can whack stuff with it, or enchant it as a Magical Staff or both. To Address those problems, I submit to you the following:

Paizo.com/PRD wrote:
Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.

Straight from the magic Item creation section. Now As a GM i would probably require the person to have Craft Staff as an item creation feet, or pay full cost to someone who does. so starting play with one at first level would be tough.


bookrat wrote:
No where in the spellbook section under the wizard does it say the spellbook is 100 pages.

My mistake. It's under Magic, in the section about wizards writing spells in their spellbook. I already quoted it once in this thread. Under Magic, in the CRB and the PRD:

PRD wrote:

Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook

Once a wizard understands a new spell, he can record it into his spellbook.

Time: The process takes 1 hour per spell level. Cantrips (0 levels spells) take 30 minutes to record.

Space in the Spellbook: A spell takes up one page of the spellbook per spell level. Even a 0-level spell (cantrip) takes one page. A spellbook has 100 pages.

Materials and Costs: The cost for writing a new spell into a spellbook depends on the level of the spell, as noted on the following table. Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for spells he gains for free at each new level.


Gol Zayvian wrote:

So Mechanically speaking there is no strict definition of Book or Page beyond, only how many pages a book has, and how many spells fit on those pages. if the player pays the cost of a spellbook for his spell staff and inscribes no more spells than allowed for a spellbook the only mechanical problem faced is that a staff can be used for something other than studying spells. you can whack stuff with it, or enchant it as a Magical Staff or both. To Address those problems, I submit to you the following:

Paizo.com/PRD wrote:
Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.
Straight from the magic Item creation section. Now As a GM i would probably require the person to have Craft Staff as an item creation feet, or pay full cost to someone who does. so starting play with one at first level would be tough.

Spellbooks aren't magic items, though. It's a gray area at best which is why I've suggested it be discussed in the house rules forum.


Blindmage wrote:
I really like this idea, it's a huge staple in fantasy, that the wizard needs his staff to to magic, in some way. Personally I like the idea of the pacific spell lighting up on the staff, runes glowing and such when it's cast. I could see a wizard with fast study and the quick preparation thing, so he can prep a single spell in 30sec (5 rounds) working this way. The caster muttering and chanting, waving the staff as the party keeps the enemy from him so he can cast <insert critical spell here>.

Can you elaborate on how to accomplish this trick?

Shadow Lodge

They require read magic to understand so once there is at least one spell penned in they're clearly magical.

Additionally while it is certainly a grey area, there are Rules as written (such as those i quoted) that can be used to adjudicate the item in a way that should be fairly straightforward and can reasonably maintain play balance. There is no reason to relegate this question to the House Rules forum. If however the player were presenting a fully fleshed out spell staff item for use in games, then yes it belongs there. That's not what he is doing. rather he is asking what rules might be used to govern such an object.


el cuervo wrote:
Spellbooks aren't magic items, though. It's a gray area at best which is why I've suggested it be discussed in the house rules forum.

Except all the times that it is a magic item, such as Blessed Book.


bookrat wrote:
el cuervo wrote:
Spellbooks aren't magic items, though. It's a gray area at best which is why I've suggested it be discussed in the house rules forum.
Except all the times that it is a magic item, such as Blessed Book.

It seems like you are hellbent on contradicting me. I don't know what I've done to personally offend you, but maybe you should take a step back for a minute and think about your goal here. I'm not here to fight you or piss you off or whatever you think I'm trying to do.

Spellbooks, generally speaking, are not magic items. Blessed Book is.

Are all spellbooks magic items? No. Specific items override the general rules. Sure, you can use the magic item creation rules to create some magic item that behaves like a spellbook but that has not been the focus of the discussion in this thread. The OP did not ask about that. Much of the discussion here has revolved around things that fall far outside the written rules.


You're the one who wanted this to never deviate from the rules even if it would help someone obtain what they requested. I'm just ensuring that you stick to the rules. More specifically, rules that could actually help with the question at hand instead of "Here's a rule that won't help you, and there might be one out there that can but I won't list it while telling you it can't be done because of the rule I'm listing."

Don't like it? Then don't tell me that I can't talk about the OP's topic while trying to help the OP through any means within the game.

If you're going to be picky about it, than I can dang well be picky about what you post to ensure your accuracy is spot on. Excluding rules while giving them a vague off-hand reference that they might exist doesn't help answer the question - it only helps you weasel out of any accusation that you're not helping. Which you aren't, because all you've done this whole thread is find ways to not help the OP while telling everyone else to take their helping answers elsewhere.


bookrat wrote:

If you're going to be picky about it, than I can dang well be picky about what you post to ensure your accuracy is spot on. Excluding rules while giving them a vague off-hand reference that they might exist doesn't help answer the question - it only helps you weasel out of any accusation that you're not helping. Which you aren't, because all you've done this whole thread is find ways to not help the OP while telling everyone else to take their helping answers elsewhere.

I haven't excluded any rules. I don't know why you keep insisting that I have. The OP won't find an answer to the question in the rules because there aren't any rules regarding non-standard spellbooks aside from the wondrous items, which have their own rules to obtain them (magic item creation, etc -- things that are generally unobtainable by a first level PC). He or she could certainly use the magic item creation rules for such a task, but that wasn't the question asked, and again a first level PC could not do so. I don't know why you're acting so hostile but I suggest you slow your roll.

I've seen many times in this forum posts requesting that answers not pertaining directly to the rules as written not be given in this forum, because many people who may not post reference this particular forum for rules clarification. There is a lot of stuff in this thread that falls far outside the scope of the rules and will absolutely not help clarify any rules.

As a GM, I would hate for one of my players to look into a thread like this and think they can just make up a special spellbook-like magical staff and bring it to my game, since that is really a house rule and isn't covered by the rule books. I'm sure there are other GMs who feel the same.

By definition, things not covered by the rule books should not be discussed in the rules questions forum.

Shadow Lodge

Honestly, I think the both of you could probably use a 45 minute break from this thread. If this weren't an anonymous webforum, I'd offer to buy you both a beer.

In my personal opinion, some of the options mentioned here are creative for sure, and probably a tad more analytical than anything the OP is looking for (that was a nice CAD rendering by the way).

However, I don't think my idea is all that far off the mark for a 1st level PC depending on the GM and what Starting funds he allows PC's to have. A Master worked player crafted quarterstaff would be 300gp + 1.5 x the cost of a spellbook + what ever reasonable surcharge the staff crafting hired wizard wants to charge for the service. It is an admittedly loose interpretation of the rules, but it's both fair and play balanced, and If I were GM-ing I would let the larger expense slide in exchange for services rendered by the PC since it's a pretty low cost, and fairly cool/flavorful item. Especially if it's the Arcane bonded item.


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Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Blindmage wrote:
I really like this idea, it's a huge staple in fantasy, that the wizard needs his staff to to magic, in some way. Personally I like the idea of the pacific spell lighting up on the staff, runes glowing and such when it's cast. I could see a wizard with fast study and the quick preparation thing, so he can prep a single spell in 30sec (5 rounds) working this way. The caster muttering and chanting, waving the staff as the party keeps the enemy from him so he can cast <insert critical spell here>.
Can you elaborate on how to accomplish this trick?

For me, the whole 'carving on the staff lights up in concert with spellcasting' thing is an awesome visual, and would go towards explaining the whole 'you can tell someone is doing magic even if they're Stilled, Silent, Eschewed' debacle. It makes for an amazing visual and component to the world.

It means that, ok, so a wizard will need more than 1 staff, even assuming each stall acts as a standard equivalent 100 page book. But it does mean then can take the time to make staffs for specific functions, an 'everyday, living life, lots of cantrips and basic utility spells' staff, or a 'battle staff' loaded with their most potent magics.

Would make an awesome plot hook, they find and old staff, the wizard in the group can tell it's loaded with high level spells (decently higher than the party could use), do they keep it? What if it starts glowing?

As for the fast prepping of spell slots, that's Fast Study, combined with Quick Preparation. It's a combination I've always wanted to make really good use of to produced a more ritualistic style of magic for a wizard.


bookrat wrote:
Don't like it? Then don't tell me that I can't talk about the OP's topic while trying to help the OP through any means within the game.

Gotta agree with bookrat here... if people are happily discussing a topic and you step in and flat-out tell them to stop, expect pushback.

If you think the thread is in the wrong forum, flag it for the moderators to decide. If you think the discussion has gone off-topic, that is for the OP to decide. If you find the discussion doesn't appeal to your sensibilities, don't read it. Those are pretty much the only reasonable options.


Blindmage wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Blindmage wrote:
I really like this idea, it's a huge staple in fantasy, that the wizard needs his staff to to magic, in some way. Personally I like the idea of the pacific spell lighting up on the staff, runes glowing and such when it's cast. I could see a wizard with fast study and the quick preparation thing, so he can prep a single spell in 30sec (5 rounds) working this way. The caster muttering and chanting, waving the staff as the party keeps the enemy from him so he can cast <insert critical spell here>.
Can you elaborate on how to accomplish this trick?

For me, the whole 'carving on the staff lights up in concert with spellcasting' thing is an awesome visual, and would go towards explaining the whole 'you can tell someone is doing magic even if they're Stilled, Silent, Eschewed' debacle. It makes for an amazing visual and component to the world.

It means that, ok, so a wizard will need more than 1 staff, even assuming each stall acts as a standard equivalent 100 page book. But it does mean then can take the time to make staffs for specific functions, an 'everyday, living life, lots of cantrips and basic utility spells' staff, or a 'battle staff' loaded with their most potent magics.

Would make an awesome plot hook, they find and old staff, the wizard in the group can tell it's loaded with high level spells (decently higher than the party could use), do they keep it? What if it starts glowing?

As for the fast prepping of spell slots, that's Fast Study, combined with Quick Preparation. It's a combination I've always wanted to make really good use of to produced a more ritualistic style of magic for a wizard.

I already make books with specific functions. Battle books that only have combat spells, etc.. So it's not much of a stretch to do the same with a staff.

Additionally, the base book mechanic is easily converted. 1 page = 1 slot. Each spell takes 1 slot per spell level (minimum 1). A basic spell staff has 100 slots. Now you can make any object you want be a spell-item that can hold so many spells written into it, with GM adjudication on how many slots it may have or whether it is a reasonable item to hold arcane writing.

Note that you still wouldn't be able to cast a spell from the spellstaff, as it isn't a scroll or anything. It's just a collection of arcane words used for you to prepare your spells.

Oh, and here's a completely rules-legal way to make this happen: since the rules do not specify what size the book or the pages must be, just make the book 6-7' long and only an inch or so thick and an inch or so wide. Give it 100 pages. And have it bound in hard wood which clasps completely around the pages, enclosing them completely inside the bindings. You now have a staff which opens up to reveal the pages inside for studying later. The only thing we're missing is that the staff has glowing runes on the outside when you cast a spell, but that can easily be done with fluff text while also explaining how people know you've cast a spell (since this also isn't in the rules, but casting a silent, still, component-less spell can still be detected somehow).


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
bookrat wrote:
Don't like it? Then don't tell me that I can't talk about the OP's topic while trying to help the OP through any means within the game.

Gotta agree with bookrat here... if people are happily discussing a topic and you step in and flat-out tell them to stop, expect pushback.

If you think the thread is in the wrong forum, flag it for the moderators to decide. If you think the discussion has gone off-topic, that is for the OP to decide. If you find the discussion doesn't appeal to your sensibilities, don't read it. Those are pretty much the only reasonable options.

It's not like I showed up, didn't provide anything constructive, and told everyone else to stop. I provided a rules-based answer to the thread much earlier on and suggested that things not covered by the rules be discussed in the appropriate forum. The topic then veered far off-course from a rules discussion.

I'm not the first person to ever suggest that a conversation be moved to the house rules forum so I don't understand why I've received such negativity here. Go take a look and you will find many similar posts in many other rules questions threads. House rules have their own section on the forums.

Shadow Lodge

bookrat wrote:


Note that you still wouldn't be able to cast a spell from the spellstaff, as it isn't a scroll or anything. It's just a collection of arcane words used for you to prepare your spells.

Not entirely true ;)

If you are a Wizard, and if the staff is the subject of your arcane bond, then you most definitely can at least 1/day.

paizo.com/prd wrote:
A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared. This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the wizard, including casting time, duration, and other effects dependent on the wizard's level. This spell cannot be modified by metamagic feats or other abilities. The bonded object cannot be used to cast spells from the wizard's opposition schools (see arcane school).


Good catch, Gol! I use the bonded item so rarely that I forgot about that!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Blindmage wrote:
I really like this idea, it's a huge staple in fantasy, that the wizard needs his staff to to magic, in some way.

The folks at Hogwarts beg to differ.

Staves are hardly universal, and they are associated with lots of other things besides wizards. They're mostly a northern European tradition. and mostly associated with old breed fantasy. You've got wizards who use swords or no other implement other than language and gesture.


LazarX wrote:
Blindmage wrote:
I really like this idea, it's a huge staple in fantasy, that the wizard needs his staff to to magic, in some way.

The folks at Hogwarts beg to differ.

Staves are hardly universal, and they are associated with lots of other things besides wizards. They're mostly a European tradition.

humbug


LazarX wrote:
Blindmage wrote:
I really like this idea, it's a huge staple in fantasy, that the wizard needs his staff to to magic, in some way.

The folks at Hogwarts beg to differ.

Staves are hardly universal, and they are associated with lots of other things besides wizards. They're mostly a northern European tradition. and mostly associated with old breed fantasy. You've got wizards who use swords or no other implement other than language and gesture.

True, staff, wand, sword, <insert instrument of power or conduit here>. A wizard that needs no object at all could best be described with a sorcerer. The most generalized wizard requires some form of device or ritual to do magic, at least that's one big chunk of wizardry.


Gol Zayvian wrote:
bookrat wrote:


Note that you still wouldn't be able to cast a spell from the spellstaff, as it isn't a scroll or anything. It's just a collection of arcane words used for you to prepare your spells.

Not entirely true ;)

If you are a Wizard, and if the staff is the subject of your arcane bond, then you most definitely can at least 1/day.

paizo.com/prd wrote:
A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared. This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the wizard, including casting time, duration, and other effects dependent on the wizard's level. This spell cannot be modified by metamagic feats or other abilities. The bonded object cannot be used to cast spells from the wizard's opposition schools (see arcane school).

The only massive downside is that you can't enchant your staff until much higher lvl.


Are you playing pfs?

If yes, sucks to be you, get one of the spellbooks described in the rules.
If no, work it out with your GM. It's a cool idea, and quite balanced. A staff should probably be able to hold about 100 pages worth of spells, while a wand could probably hold something closer to 20.


Wow this took off like a wildfire...
I had no idea bookrat and el cuervo would go after each other like that, please take a deep breath guys or gals, I'm sorry.

OK, details;
* We just started the Mummy's Mask Adv. Path
* This was purely for flavor, nothing else
* My group is not playing PFS
* Character is currently Summoner 1, Universal Wizard 1
* This will be the only wizard level taken
* The Staff is the Bonded Item (i.e. masterwork)
* Only 10 pages of space is required
* The writings are Ancient Osiriani (hieroglyphs)

Now, I have talked to my DM about the idea, he instantly fell in love with the concept and gave me the go ahead. There is the possibility of damage to the spells if the staff is used to strike someone or something. I'm willing to risk that - I HAVE AN EIGHT STRENGTH AND A ZERO BASE ATTACK, I am not attacking with the staff unless I'm going to die anyways.

Um, if I missed addressing any other issues, I'm sorry.


In the 3.5 Complete Arcane book, starting at page 186 it gives rules for inscribing written spells on Structures (standing stones, pyramids), Tokens (staffs, bones) and Flesh (tattoos).

While not pathfinder it should be close enough for your DM to make a house ruling.


Pulling book out now, thank you Splendor.


There's no need for you to apologize, Phoenix.

There is a need for me to apologize for spewing all over your thread. So for that, I apologize.

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